How many Dealers are banning sales to Minnesota residents?
Manorcourtman
Posts: 8,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've seen several Dealers now refusing to sell to our collector friends in Minnesota. Any updates on anticipated policy changes from our Minnesota board members or is the Republik of Minnesota policy set in stone?
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Comments
Maybe a wooden nickel, too.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
"Due to the new Minnesota Bullion Coin Dealer law restrictions, we cannot sell or deliver any gold or silver coins to Minnesota addresses. Be sure to thank your Minnesota state officials for making it difficult to sell bullion coins to Minnesota residents."
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I wonder how many out of state eBay sellers know about this law and continue to sell gold and silver to Minnesota residences. I wonder how many know about it and just don't care. What is the likelihood that Minnesota will go to the trouble and expense of extraditing out of state sellers who violate this law? >>
Just do business in a way that can't be easily traced/documented.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how many out of state eBay sellers know about this law and continue to sell gold and silver to Minnesota residences. I wonder how many know about it and just don't care. What is the likelihood that Minnesota will go to the trouble and expense of extraditing out of state sellers who violate this law? >>
Just do business in a way that can't be easily traced/documented. >>
That's what Enron USED to say
"A dealer who has $5,000 or more of purchases and sales of “bullion coin” with Minnesota consumers in a 12-month period is required to register with the Minnesota Department of Commerce."
Bullion Coin … means any coin containing one percent by weight of silver, gold, platinum or other precious metal.” For all practical purposes, this means that any coin containing even the slightest amount of gold, silver, platinum or palladium falls within the definition of “bullion coin.”
Numinews article
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how many out of state eBay sellers know about this law and continue to sell gold and silver to Minnesota residences. I wonder how many know about it and just don't care. What is the likelihood that Minnesota will go to the trouble and expense of extraditing out of state sellers who violate this law? >>
Just do business in a way that can't be easily traced/documented. >>
That's what Enron USED to say
Enron was an eBay seller?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Law will not affect small time sellers, only the big boys, and most will abide by it.
"A dealer who has $5,000 or more of purchases and sales of “bullion coin” with Minnesota consumers in a 12-month period is required to register with the Minnesota Department of Commerce."
Bullion Coin … means any coin containing one percent by weight of silver, gold, platinum or other precious metal.” For all practical purposes, this means that any coin containing even the slightest amount of gold, silver, platinum or palladium falls within the definition of “bullion coin.”
Numinews article >>
Good to know. Thanks for the post OPA.
<< <i>Unless your a large dealer, this law would be unenforceable for a out of state seller. Now if you happen to go into the state to conduct business at a show or get pulled over on a traffic stop and then they ran your name, you may have some answering to do. >>
It comes down to how much the state of Jerrysota is willing to spend to pursue marginal cases or cases where little is to be gained. Then again like Uncle Sam, they likely have more money than any coin dealer out there. Up to them if they want to spend it stupidly.
So once a year ebay sellers will list a coin for $4999 as a "Minnesota Special". Other than that ebay sellers will refuse to ship there.
Actual value somewhere between a few dollars and $4999. Mostly worth more toward the bottom end.
Politicians and their fixes!?!
There are only two types of people I can't stand, intolerant bigoted people and Minnesotans
1) Dealers are having to pay for a license to keep track of people for the government (not only does it cost them with a bond, but extra paperwork or "RED TAPE", as it were)
2) The citizens of Minnesota have been hoodwinked into believing this protects them when it actually violates their privacy.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Law will not affect small time sellers, only the big boys, and most will abide by it.
"A dealer who has $5,000 or more of purchases and sales of “bullion coin” with Minnesota consumers in a 12-month period is required to register with the Minnesota Department of Commerce."
Bullion Coin … means any coin containing one percent by weight of silver, gold, platinum or other precious metal.” For all practical purposes, this means that any coin containing even the slightest amount of gold, silver, platinum or palladium falls within the definition of “bullion coin.”
Numinews article >>
So $5000 in sales to all customers in MN makes a dealer a big boy? What's that - about 3 or 4 low-end double eagles? With the already low margins on those types of coins, it's a non-starter for many sellers.
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
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No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
To our friends and customers in the state of Minnesota:
A new law passed by the state of Minnesota, requires coin dealers selling over $5,000 annually in “bullion coins” (defined as any coin containing one percent or more by weight of silver, gold, platinum or other precious metal) to register with the state and comply with the new law, or stop doing business in the state of Minnesota. Since our business is primarily Bust and Seated silver coins, they are defined by the new law as “bullion coins” and therefore we are covered by the law. The law (http://goo.gl/wJrh74) requires coin dealers to register with the state, have each employee screened for the last ten years, provide a surety bond with the state, and other similar requirements.
In my opinion, requiring legitimate, nationally known, Authorized PCGS and NGC coin dealers who have never had a problem with the law nor any unresolved customer complaints, to fulfill these requirements, is punishing the innocent for the actions of the guilty. Furthermore, I believe if coin dealers accept these requirements and comply with the law, other states are likely to follow suit and enact similar laws. We are not a real big company, and if we have to purchase surety bonds for every state, that cost will put us out of business. Therefore, I, Rich Uhrich, as President of Rich Uhrich Rare U. S. Coins Inc., have decided that as a result of this law, our company will stop doing business in the state of Minnesota, effective immediately. We will not be able to sell to customers who live in the state of Minnesota, either through our internet site or at a coin show. I am personally sorry that this decision had to be made, and I and our company will miss our fine customers located in the state of Minnesota. If this situation is upsetting to you, I suggest you contact your state legislator in Minnesota.
Sincerely and best wishes,
Rich Uhrich
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Law will not affect small time sellers, only the big boys, and most will abide by it.
"A dealer who has $5,000 or more of purchases and sales of “bullion coin” with Minnesota consumers in a 12-month period is required to register with the Minnesota Department of Commerce."
Bullion Coin … means any coin containing one percent by weight of silver, gold, platinum or other precious metal.” For all practical purposes, this means that any coin containing even the slightest amount of gold, silver, platinum or palladium falls within the definition of “bullion coin.”
Numinews article >>
Big Boyz???
Your local dealer probably sells a Saint or $20 Lib every few days to a few weeks. $5,000 would allow you to buy or sell at most 5 twenties per year. That affects every B&M imo. Even the Patriot Act 2 is less restrictive having a reporting limit of $50,000/yr. And all you have to do there is develop a money-laundering enforcement program and follow it. And then you have a dealer like Rich Uhrich who specializes in better date silver coinage. $5,000 won't go very far in any state when every bust, barber, and seated coin you sell/buy qualifies under Minn. rules.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>According to ballotpedia.com, that would be the Democrats. >>
Why am I not surprised.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
if the us mint branches have plans to sell to MN residents right...
or let me guess
the mints are extempt
thinking like this is part of the reason that the country is where it is today, in a negative sense.
...................... this protects them when it actually violates their privacy.
the Privacy Act is a good thought but also one of the most abused Laws we have. it places more importance on the individual which, again, is part of the reason the country is where it is today, in a negative sense.
when Laws are bad it is a good idea to work to change them, that's what residents of Minnesota should be doing. maybe if you're ultra-concerned about that you should be a little pro-active and see what you can do to help. it is the lazy choice to complain and do nothing, but that is apparently the American way nowadays.
<< <i>Has this caused any coin shows to be cancelled there? >>
To my knowledge no Minnesota coin show has been cancelled yet. Here in the twin cites there are three monthly shows, and they are hanging by a thread. The various club shows that happen maybe once a year, are also struggling. A lot of out of state dealers have been scared off by the law, so the show organizers have had some trouble selling tables. This is despite the fact that the law specifically exempts coin shows.
A few months ago there was an incident where a MN Department of Commerce Investigator actually showed up at a coin show. There was a lot of upset people, including a couple of State Senators I talked to. The State Senators were not at all happy that they put an exemptions for coin shows in the law and the department of commerce ignored the exemption. One of the State Senators contacted the department of commerce investigators about the issue, and the Department of Commerce agreed to leave coin shows alone. We have not seen any sign of the Department of Commerce at coin shows since that time. Hopefully we can get the work out about the coin show exemption, and our dealer friends from outside the state will start coming back.
It is actually wise for the Department of Commerce to steer clear of coin shows. There is some confusing wording in the law regarding the coin show exemption. If they tried to interpret the law that they had jurisdiction over coin shows, the whole law would almost certainly be struck down as unconstitutionally vague.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
… sorry to disagree.
Laws might be broken, but MAN does not abuse privacy laws. THOSE LAWS were designed for us Americans who don't need to give an accounting of how we are changing our paper bills into precious metals. It's hard to tax gold. It's easy to confiscate it, and the dealers having to be burdened by a COST without compensation, only to SERVE Government is abuse of power.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The best thing to do is to stay out of Minnesota period.
<< <i>This law is the type statute that public officials can use for harassment. You sell some stuff; nothing happens; and then they come down on you like a ton of bricks.
The best thing to do is to stay out of Minnesota period. >>
The best way to change it is to boycott their businesses, etc. and make them wish they'd never passed it in the first place. More effective than writing letters IMO. If they really cared about the effect of their silly-ass laws on their businesses and residents, they would have sought some intelligent input before enacting them.
That was Jesus' way of telling us we will be slaves forever. But LOVE God. That's what he meant. Then love your neighbors. Too bad laws have to be enacted to protect us from one another.
Okay, forgive me for going off my rocker.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I'm guessing that when it comes to out of state eBay sellers the law is pretty much unenforceable. >>
I doubt that it is practical to pursue and prosecute every infraction, but if Minnesota wanted to waste its resources (as governments sometimes do) then I do think it is enforceable if the recipient is in Minnesota and I am sure that Minnesota's long arm statute is broad enough to grant Minnesota courts personal jurisdiction over potential defendants. I wouldn't sell gold or silver to Minnesota residents to be safe - it will likely have de minimis effects on your business.
<< <i>I sent out this letter:
To our friends and customers in the state of Minnesota:
A new law passed by the state of Minnesota, requires coin dealers selling over $5,000 annually in “bullion coins” (defined as any coin containing one percent or more by weight of silver, gold, platinum or other precious metal) to register with the state and comply with the new law, or stop doing business in the state of Minnesota. Since our business is primarily Bust and Seated silver coins, they are defined by the new law as “bullion coins” and therefore we are covered by the law. The law (http://goo.gl/wJrh74) requires coin dealers to register with the state, have each employee screened for the last ten years, provide a surety bond with the state, and other similar requirements.
In my opinion, requiring legitimate, nationally known, Authorized PCGS and NGC coin dealers who have never had a problem with the law nor any unresolved customer complaints, to fulfill these requirements, is punishing the innocent for the actions of the guilty. Furthermore, I believe if coin dealers accept these requirements and comply with the law, other states are likely to follow suit and enact similar laws. We are not a real big company, and if we have to purchase surety bonds for every state, that cost will put us out of business. Therefore, I, Rich Uhrich, as President of Rich Uhrich Rare U. S. Coins Inc., have decided that as a result of this law, our company will stop doing business in the state of Minnesota, effective immediately. We will not be able to sell to customers who live in the state of Minnesota, either through our internet site or at a coin show. I am personally sorry that this decision had to be made, and I and our company will miss our fine customers located in the state of Minnesota. If this situation is upsetting to you, I suggest you contact your state legislator in Minnesota.
Sincerely and best wishes,
Rich Uhrich >>
Sadly, unless it translates into large sums of lost sale tax revenue (unlikely given the nature of interstate coin sales and internet sales unless you are headquartered in Minnesota), the state likely doesn't care.
<< <i>
<< <i>This law is the type statute that public officials can use for harassment. You sell some stuff; nothing happens; and then they come down on you like a ton of bricks.
The best thing to do is to stay out of Minnesota period. >>
The best way to change it is to boycott their businesses, etc. and make them wish they'd never passed it in the first place. More effective than writing letters IMO. If they really cared about the effect of their silly-ass laws on their businesses and residents, they would have sought some intelligent input before enacting them. >>
Boycotting Minnesota businesses will have no affect on getting the law changed. As a matter of fact the intent of the law is to get outside businesses to stop selling to Minnesota customers, so local Minnesota businesses can have the Minnesota Market all to themselves.
Don't believe me? Bill Gale from Asset Marking services, aka Govmint.com, aka New York Mint, aka First Federal coin, testified before the MN State legislature that he helped write the law. Asset Marketing Services is headquartered in Burnsville Minnesota.
PM me if you want a link to his testimony.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
<< <i>I sent out this letter:
To our friends and customers in the state of Minnesota:
A new law passed by the state of Minnesota, requires coin dealers selling over $5,000 annually in “bullion coins” (defined as any coin containing one percent or more by weight of silver, gold, platinum or other precious metal) to register with the state and comply with the new law, or stop doing business in the state of Minnesota. Since our business is primarily Bust and Seated silver coins, they are defined by the new law as “bullion coins” and therefore we are covered by the law. The law (http://goo.gl/wJrh74) requires coin dealers to register with the state, have each employee screened for the last ten years, provide a surety bond with the state, and other similar requirements.
In my opinion, requiring legitimate, nationally known, Authorized PCGS and NGC coin dealers who have never had a problem with the law nor any unresolved customer complaints, to fulfill these requirements, is punishing the innocent for the actions of the guilty. Furthermore, I believe if coin dealers accept these requirements and comply with the law, other states are likely to follow suit and enact similar laws. We are not a real big company, and if we have to purchase surety bonds for every state, that cost will put us out of business. Therefore, I, Rich Uhrich, as President of Rich Uhrich Rare U. S. Coins Inc., have decided that as a result of this law, our company will stop doing business in the state of Minnesota, effective immediately. We will not be able to sell to customers who live in the state of Minnesota, either through our internet site or at a coin show. I am personally sorry that this decision had to be made, and I and our company will miss our fine customers located in the state of Minnesota. If this situation is upsetting to you, I suggest you contact your state legislator in Minnesota.
Sincerely and best wishes,
Rich Uhrich >>
And how exactly would you enforce not selling to a Minnesotan at a show in another state when they pay in cash, etc. You have no right to know the home state of a person who purchases from you on the bourse floor.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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<< <i>
<< <i>I sent out this letter:
To our friends and customers in the state of Minnesota:
A new law passed by the state of Minnesota, requires coin dealers selling over $5,000 annually in “bullion coins” (defined as any coin containing one percent or more by weight of silver, gold, platinum or other precious metal) to register with the state and comply with the new law, or stop doing business in the state of Minnesota. Since our business is primarily Bust and Seated silver coins, they are defined by the new law as “bullion coins” and therefore we are covered by the law. The law (http://goo.gl/wJrh74) requires coin dealers to register with the state, have each employee screened for the last ten years, provide a surety bond with the state, and other similar requirements.
In my opinion, requiring legitimate, nationally known, Authorized PCGS and NGC coin dealers who have never had a problem with the law nor any unresolved customer complaints, to fulfill these requirements, is punishing the innocent for the actions of the guilty. Furthermore, I believe if coin dealers accept these requirements and comply with the law, other states are likely to follow suit and enact similar laws. We are not a real big company, and if we have to purchase surety bonds for every state, that cost will put us out of business. Therefore, I, Rich Uhrich, as President of Rich Uhrich Rare U. S. Coins Inc., have decided that as a result of this law, our company will stop doing business in the state of Minnesota, effective immediately. We will not be able to sell to customers who live in the state of Minnesota, either through our internet site or at a coin show. I am personally sorry that this decision had to be made, and I and our company will miss our fine customers located in the state of Minnesota. If this situation is upsetting to you, I suggest you contact your state legislator in Minnesota.
Sincerely and best wishes,
Rich Uhrich >>
And how exactly would you enforce not selling to a Minnesotan at a show in another state when they pay in cash, etc. You have no right to know the home state of a person who purchases from you on the bourse floor. >>
Interesting point.
That adds an interesting quandary for dealers across the country.
Minnesotans will leave the state and report dealers when they get home after the interstate transportation of a controlled substance.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5