Fake 1909-S VDB - PCGS RESULTS - UPDATE

Windycity · October 25, 2014 1:21AM

Take a look at this fake 1909-S VDB closeup... I have compared it to the real deal... note what seems to be the added mint mark and tooling lines under the S and along the rim. The "S" Shape is right and the mm location is correct. Quite certain it is counterfeit but the tooling along the rim is out of place... not certain why counterfeiter would have touched this area of coin.

IrishMikey · October 25, 2014 1:41AM

The mintmark position shown here is Die 4 -- I am not familiar with any high-quality counterfeits using Die 4
as a model coin. What you are calling "tooling" around the mintmark is more likely die polish, done by the mint
to eliminate the raised metal around the mintmark (from the punching process). It may also be die erosion.

My advice is to have the authenticity checked by an expert, as the coin may very well be genuine.

ricko · October 25, 2014 3:24AM

Interesting.....have it authenticated and report back.....Cheers, RickO

tahoe98 · October 25, 2014 3:36AM

...We'll be waiting...

AUandAG · October 25, 2014 3:38AM

Have you soaked in acetone to see if it is glued on?

bob

lordmarcovan · October 25, 2014 3:46AM

Boy, wouldn't that be hilariously ironic if someone's 'fake' SVDB turned out to be real after all.

EagleEye · October 25, 2014 4:35AM

There are flow lines from die wear around the mint mark and the rim. What do you see that is suspicious?

WoodenJefferson · October 25, 2014 5:41AM

<< There are flow lines from die wear around the mint mark and the rim. What do you see that is suspicious? >>

The 'S' in the image appears to be sitting in a shallow dish shape and the first conclusion is that either metal was moved up to 'create' the 'S' or moved away.

Well, that's what it looks like anyways. Not convinced 100% it has been tooled, but it looks like it has.

Windycity · October 25, 2014 9:51AM

Rick, the flow lines looked like tooled surface and suspicious that it was exactly where the mm is. I have seen Buffalo nickels with added mm and this coin reminded me of that. Having said that, as I posted in the original post, the mm is correct and the location is correct. And the other flow lines along the rim being similar didn't make sense to me. Learning everyday.

LanceNewmanOCC · October 25, 2014 3:03PM

.
looks like good work ike. one difference in our methods. i actually rotated both of the OPs images to ensure the 9s were even. the op image has something extra on top of the first 9 so your line should be a little lower. i'm pretty sure if you rotate your image clockwise a couple degrees to put the line at the top of the first 9 and not on whatever is on top of that 9 (possibly from a hit) i bet your alignment will look more like mine. (i agree they are close but after doing dozens of these the only variance i've gotten was from that one coin that had strike doubling and it actually lined up when i found the base of the metal.)

i also think the v.d.b. looks spot-on. i'm still working on my rev image comp for vdb. it is proving more difficult to find a good presentation/alignment method. i'd rather not include MER from america as the images will be very high/tall and i am getting some strong variances in positions of v.d.b., probably from different dies but i MUST ensure the dimensions of the images are exactly the same for my alignments to be worth a darn.

i know it usually looks like i just post up some images and throw some lines around but all of the images i've uploaded for these types of threads had far more work than meets the eye that goes into them. usually quite a bit of squirming on my part as well for added measure.

(my 09-s vdb, 09-s, morgan cc image comps had several hours put into them for best presentation and accuracy fwiw)

i'm also still trying to wrap my mind around the pos/neg/pos/nes pre-hub/hub/die/coin issue about the low/high areas on the die/coin. something isn't sitting right just yet. in order for it to be low on the coin, it would need to be high on the die unless there is some nuance surrounding striking i'm unfamiliar with (very likely).

coinzip is right to mention the die chip in B for position #4. it is only on, idk, about half of my pos 4 images but it looks like it is on the OPs coin. so between the S having the die chip, the chip in B and VDB looking spot-on.

it seems the coin would have to be authentic? the vdb (non-s) is also know for a die chip in B for the fs-1102 and perhaps non-ddo as well. if the coin was listed on ebay it would sell all day long, as well as on the bourse w/o a second look. all this chatter is strictly for educational and discussion purposes. there are probably other markers for pos 4 that i simply don't know.
.

LanceNewmanOCC · October 25, 2014 3:48PM

.
i'm having a difficult time lining up the mm from the top coin. seems too far left for mm position 4 and for sure it isn't 1, 2 or 3. i also checked the 6 known 09-s (non-vdb) positions and it is close

between #4 and #5 but didn't match. (i checked the 09-s in case the op was trying to pull a fast one on us

)

i'll post an image after i do some more checking.

edited to add:

i can definitively say that 09-s vdb mm pos 4 does not match ANY 09-s (non-vdb)

i can also say that i cannot get the top image from the op to match any 09-s vdb position although 4 is close. i will also say that my mm alignment images of the 09-s vdb and 09-s (non-vdb) are not

100% full-proof authentication tools for the 09-s vdb or 09-s (non-vdb) but i will say they count for a lot. fwiw.

so w/o seeing the whole obv/rev, i have nothing more to offer that i can think of.

LanceNewmanOCC · October 25, 2014 4:10PM

double

GrumpyEd · October 25, 2014 5:57PM

The S style looks perfect.

Post a pic of the VDB to see if the dot locations are right for an S-VDB

LanceNewmanOCC · October 25, 2014 7:15PM

.
one thing that comes to mind that can obscure mm positioning authentication methods is strike/ejection doubling. i did an 09-s vdb that had a strongly shifted mm and while the alignment did work, it did

take a bit more effort and also seeing the rest of the coin helped.

it maybe was even posted to the boards, i don't recall.
.

Windycity · October 25, 2014 11:51PM

Here's an image of the obverse of the coin... I will get images of the reverse and closeup of VDB later today.

WoodenJefferson · October 26, 2014 2:20AM

Since the flow of the flan metal is pretty significant in one general direction, how about a die striking where lamination flaking has already occurred? Would that create what we see here?

Interesting plotting of the mm

Windycity · October 26, 2014 3:55AM

Here are images of the reverse and closeups of the VDB.

CoinZip · October 26, 2014 5:26AM

Is there a die chip in the top loop of the B in LIBERTY?

droopyd · October 26, 2014 5:45AM

If fake it's a very good fake.

lkeigwin · October 26, 2014 6:38AM

I don't know, LanceNewman. It looks darn close to me. I added one adjustment to your collage (black lines). Compare it to the ones above it.

I hope Windycity submits it for authenticating. I wouldn't be surprised by a "no decision/refund". Happened to me with the same coin. PCGS wouldn't call it fake but wouldn't say it wasn't either.
Lance.

LanceNewmanOCC · October 26, 2014 10:23AM

.
looks like good work ike. one difference in our methods. i actually rotated both of the OPs images to ensure the 9s were even. the op image has something extra on top of the first 9 so your line should be a little lower. i'm pretty sure if you rotate your image clockwise a couple degrees to put the line at the top of the first 9 and not on whatever is on top of that 9 (possibly from a hit) i bet your alignment will look more like mine. (i agree they are close but after doing dozens of these the only variance i've gotten was from that one coin that had strike doubling and it actually lined up when i found the base of the metal.)

i also think the v.d.b. looks spot-on. i'm still working on my rev image comp for vdb. it is proving more difficult to find a good presentation/alignment method. i'd rather not include MER from america as the images will be very high/tall and i am getting some strong variances in positions of v.d.b., probably from different dies but i MUST ensure the dimensions of the images are exactly the same for my alignments to be worth a darn.

i know it usually looks like i just post up some images and throw some lines around but all of the images i've uploaded for these types of threads had far more work than meets the eye that goes into them. usually quite a bit of squirming on my part as well for added measure.

(my 09-s vdb, 09-s, morgan cc image comps had several hours put into them for best presentation and accuracy fwiw)

i'm also still trying to wrap my mind around the pos/neg/pos/nes pre-hub/hub/die/coin issue about the low/high areas on the die/coin. something isn't sitting right just yet. in order for it to be low on the coin, it would need to be high on the die unless there is some nuance surrounding striking i'm unfamiliar with (very likely).

coinzip is right to mention the die chip in B for position #4. it is only on, idk, about half of my pos 4 images but it looks like it is on the OPs coin. so between the S having the die chip, the chip in B and VDB looking spot-on.

it seems the coin would have to be authentic? the vdb (non-s) is also know for a die chip in B for the fs-1102 and perhaps non-ddo as well. if the coin was listed on ebay it would sell all day long, as well as on the bourse w/o a second look. all this chatter is strictly for educational and discussion purposes. there are probably other markers for pos 4 that i simply don't know.
.

CoinZip · October 26, 2014 10:36AM

The position being close and not exact could be explained by the camera angle.

LanceNewmanOCC · October 26, 2014 10:39AM

<< The position being close and not exact could be explained by the camera angle. >>

i concur something like this is possible here. i've had some major problems trying to "level" out images in paint.net. it permits the full 3d rotation of images but it really doesn't work because

perspective/scale is usually lost. i strive to use only head-on images for fakie detection.

thanks for posting windy and let us know how it goes.

.

GrumpyEd · October 26, 2014 3:14PM

The dot placement is also correct for an S-VDB.
If I had had that coin I'd send it off for grading and expect it to be ok.

I've never seen a real S-VDB that did not have that placement and all of the P coins that I've seen have the different placement but there are many dies used for Ps so it's possible that some don't follow the rule. I've always used it as a rule that if it has the wrong placement it's likely to be an added S on a P coin. (but being correct isn't a 100% since nobody ever proved all P coins have the same spacing)

I've always wondered why the placement is different since the dies were all made together.
Does anyone have an explanation?
Or anyone have a P mint with the dot spacing of an S?

Treashunt · October 26, 2014 8:46PM

Great discussion

Windycity · October 26, 2014 9:39PM

Thank you all... I will send in on next submission and report back.

SullivanNumismatics · October 26, 2014 9:58PM

Looks genuine to me, although I haven't looked at an 09-s VDB in a long time. Correct mintmark style, it has the die chip in the upper left curve, and the shape looks correct. The planchet has an improper alloy mixture, giving the coin the classic "wood grain" appearance, which is typical for '09-S VDB's.

SmallTownCoins · October 26, 2014 11:08PM

I'll go on record to say that the top coin is 100% Authentic :-)

Nap · October 26, 2014 11:43PM

Excellent commentary by all, thanks for this informative thread.

IrishMikey · October 27, 2014 1:31AM

Concerning VDB dot placement, all genuine 1909-S VDB cents have the dot centered between
the D and the B. This reverse also exists for one of the P mint doubled dies, and I think the
Matte Proofs also come with this spacing.

Overdate · October 27, 2014 1:48AM

A picture of a business strike Philly 1909 VDB with a centered dot appears near the end of this thread.

GrumpyEd · October 27, 2014 9:13AM

Thanks IrishMikey and Overdate.

I figured there could be Ps like that.

It's still very useful to catch coins that were P-VDBs with added mintmarks since all real S-VDBs have the right spacing.

tahoe98 · October 28, 2014 4:03AM

...I wonder if Mark Feld could enlighten you and us, but I believe he's only accessible ATS...

winky · October 28, 2014 4:54AM

LOVE THE NEW WEB SITE. HOPE ALL IS GOING WELL. I SURE MISS MY CENTS I HAD BUT AM RETIRED AND HAVE TO KEEP A CLEAR HEAD THESE DAYS.

KEN

johnny9434 · October 28, 2014 5:02AM

<< ...I wonder if Mark Feld could enlighten you and us, but I believe he's only accessible ATS...

>>

i wonder if he could be emailed? just a thought

johnny9434 · October 28, 2014 5:04AM

double post sorry

Windycity · December 5, 2014 12:08AM

PCGS says counterfeit. Will keep this coin to show and discuss in person with the experts - certainly and interesting coin and quite an education!!!

tahoe98 · December 5, 2014 12:13AM

...OUCH!!!!

Sonorandesertrat · December 5, 2014 1:05AM

I learned something reading through the posts. Thanks!

Davideo · December 5, 2014 2:36AM

<< PCGS says counterfeit. Will keep this coin to show and discuss in person with the experts - certainly and interesting coin and quite an education!!! >>

If you are able to find out why please report back. It would likely be quite informative.

ArizonaJack · December 5, 2014 8:38AM

Wow!!

Elcontador · December 5, 2014 8:59AM

This educational thread is why as a young collector and to this date, I never bought an 09 S VDB. It was expensive coin and even with the books and diagnostics to check, I couldn't tell the difference between a real one and a good fake, and couldn't afford it if I guessed wrong.

It reminds me of a Trade $ I brought back from Vietnam. The only thing which gave it away was the 'ping' of the metal when it hit the floor. It fooled everyone until then. If the counterfeiter bothered to used the correct metal content, the coin would be in a 1st world holder today.

LanceNewmanOCC · January 19, 2015 12:26AM

.
sure would have liked to have had in-hand for imaging and/or had/have 5000x5000 high-res professional images.

with so much being close on this coin, including some pups, it is a mystery to me that it wasnt slabbed. they obviously know and/or saw something we didnt/dont.
.

Rampage · January 19, 2015 12:48AM

Definitely a great thread. One thing I always look for on these, other than the added mint mark is the B of VDB. The middle bar of the B should be slanted, not horizontal. At least that is what I was taught.

tahoe98 · January 19, 2015 3:31AM

<< 

<< PCGS says counterfeit. Will keep this coin to show and discuss in person with the experts - certainly and interesting coin and quite an education!!! >>

If you are able to find out why please report back. It would likely be quite informative. >>

...I too would love to know!

CoinZip · January 19, 2015 3:55AM

<< Is there a die chip in the top loop of the B in LIBERTY? >>

I'll ask again because the OP prolly missed this question....

Fake 1909-S VDB - PCGS RESULTS - UPDATE

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