COLLECTOR OWNS 53 1909VDB MATTE PROOF LINCOLN CENTS/WITH LINK TO CW

Steve · October 4, 2014 12:09PM

It's been two years now since this hoard of Matte Proof Lincoln cents dated 1909 VDB became public. Very little information about this hoard has been publicized by the numismatic community since then. Is this "story" to remain "quiet" for another two years or more? I, for one, wonder what is going on.
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Coin World has published in their latest issue today that an unidentified collector has accumulated over many years a total of 53 of the 1909VDB Matte Proof Lincoln cents. Only slightly more than 200 have been certified by PCGS, NGC, ANACS and ICG with obviously duplication of at least 50. My guess is this collector now owns 53 of about 150 that are legitimate and accepted by the hobby. Also, this unidentified collector is the person who acquired the Jenks 1909VDB MPL in PCGS67+RB at the recent ANA convention for $258,000! This story sounds unbelievable but I BELIEVE IT IS TRUE! Anyone have more facts to share? Steve

LINK to the story at COIN WORLD: http://www.coinworld.com/insights/matte-proof-lincoln-cent-collector-focuses-on-vdb-variety.all.html

bolivarshagnasty · October 4, 2014 12:17PM

If I owned a PF VDB, and I don't, I would be interested in this persons age and health. Just sayin...........

lasvegasteddy · October 4, 2014 12:20PM

i don't know if this is collecting
to me it's more like hoarding or trying to corner a market

good for him in a way

nothing to add but i've heard same rumor just never any specific's

i bet brian wagner or andy of angle dees knows a lil more then "coinworld" on this topic

GBurger717 · October 4, 2014 12:22PM

Would like to see them. Would also like to know age /health if I owned one. Could mean a lot.

BaronVonBaugh · October 4, 2014 12:29PM

<< If I owned a PF VDB, and I don't, I would be interested in this persons age and health. Just sayin........... >>

Shamika · October 4, 2014 12:31PM

Sorry, but this person is not a friend to collectors.

ms70 · October 4, 2014 12:45PM

<< Sorry, but this person is not a friend to collectors. >>

Reminds me of the guy that owns the original "Bullitt" Mustang. He's had this priceless car for decades but won't let anyone look at it.

But 53 of those MP '09 VDB's in one person's hands is crazy!

BaronVonBaugh · October 4, 2014 12:56PM

Imagine 53 1909 VDB matte proof Lincoln cents hitting Heritage all at once!

koynekwest · October 4, 2014 1:26PM

Makes ya wonder (at least it makes ME wonder) where the other 200 or so might be.

ChrisRx · October 4, 2014 2:08PM

I believe this story because about 4-5 years back a good dealer/friend told me about this.

I guess I would selfishly hope they all hit the market at once.

crypto79 · October 4, 2014 2:11PM

Smart coin to hoard

Overdate · October 4, 2014 2:21PM

What's the big deal? Collecting by the roll is becoming very popular these days.

brg5658 · October 4, 2014 2:34PM

<< Smart coin to hoard >>

Really? I think it's a horrible idea. Unless this guy is young and plans to "feed" them back into the market slowly over many years, a deluge of 53 of the same type of "rare" coin entering the market at once could have pretty serious downward effects on value...

SanctionII · October 4, 2014 3:11PM

Maybe his goal is acquire al of these coins and then thin the herd by melting all but between 1 - 10 of the best of the best.

Reduce the supply by getting rid of the ones that are not he bestof the best and then wait to see if he demand for the remaining 1 - 10 best coins goes through the roof, along with the market value.

Overdate · October 4, 2014 5:19PM

<< Maybe his goal is acquire al of these coins and then thin the herd by melting all but between 1 - 10 of the best of the best.

Reduce the supply by getting rid of the ones that are not he bestof the best and then wait to see if he demand for the remaining 1 - 10 best coins goes through the roof, along with the market value. >>

I doubt that this is the case. Such a scenario will almost never work, especially if the owner has significantly less than 100% of the supply of the item in question. The price increase generally will not be sufficient to make up for the value of the items removed from the market.

WingedLiberty1957 · October 4, 2014 6:22PM

I can't help it, but I keep having this image pop into my head when I think of the inside of the house of the 1909 vdb hoarder ... LOL.
I think the roll of VDB's are probably in a box, inside a box, under the big box, next to the dishwashing liquid.

PerryHall · October 4, 2014 8:01PM

If it were me I would have kept this hoard a secret. A hoard this large overhanging the market can't help the value of this coin.

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · October 4, 2014 8:05PM

<< Maybe his goal is acquire al of these coins and then thin the herd by melting all but between 1 - 10 of the best of the best.

Reduce the supply by getting rid of the ones that are not he bestof the best and then wait to see if he demand for the remaining 1 - 10 best coins goes through the roof, along with the market value. >>

...if he gets a camera crew to shoot him sending 43 of them through the souvanier penny rolling machine at Disneyland, turning them into Donald Duck copper in HD and broadcast on the Travel channel...this situation might work for his ROI in the long term

...not collecter friendly but none the less,
Erik

Treashunt · October 4, 2014 9:01PM

Sorry, but I think the hoard is a cool one.

giorgio11 · October 4, 2014 9:50PM

That's a pretty cool story! Whether you think he's a friend to collectors or not, everybody has a right to collect/hoard/amass whatever they want ... it's a free country, after all, and folks like this certainly help to keep demand up! When I used to do one particular show, there was one guy that would buy all the 1933-S Walking Liberty halves you had, if the price was right, from AG to Mint State. Just 1933-S halves, nothing else. Needless to say he had a ton of 'em! I haven't seen him in a good while.

Best Regards,

George

TwoSides2aCoin · October 4, 2014 10:04PM

" ___________ owns 53 1909 VDB Matte Proof Lincoln Cents." (fill in the blank)

astrorat · October 4, 2014 10:10PM

<< That's a pretty cool story! Whether you think he's a friend to collectors or not, everybody has a right to collect/hoard/amass whatever they want ... it's a free country, after all, and folks like this certainly help to keep demand up! When I used to do one particular show, there was one guy that would buy all the 1933-S Walking Liberty halves you had, if the price was right, from AG to Mint State. Just 1933-S halves, nothing else. Needless to say he had a ton of 'em! I haven't seen him in a good while.

Best Regards,

George >>

We had a customer that would buy all the 1896-S dollars he could find. I never did find out what he did with his hoard, but he must have accumulated a bunch over the years.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 4, 2014 10:16PM

P.S.
It's no different than someone loading up on Wide AM Cents, 2008 with '07 reverse Silver American Eagles, Wisconsin high/low leaf quarters, or any other single date release of any sought after coin.

The fact that they're matte proof cents has little bearing on the thought process of the guy who owns all those Sacagawea Mules.

… and speaking of mules, I know this really stubborn guy. He's one of the nicer fellows I've met through the business. He's a fascinating character. When he first came in he was buying one certain dated eagle. He finally ran me out of that date to the point where I needed to order more. Then he said, "nah, I just pick 'em up in shops as I find them, don't bother looking".
Not being a player in bullion so much was to my disadvantage the past few years in one respect, but that's not the point. The point being…. The notion that someone would just collect ONE date made me realize there was some underlying chase. So I asked him: "Why this date ? You think just because there's a lower mintage you're going to be a dealer with them ? " He laughed and said, "Hell no. I got divorced this year ". His intentions are to give them to his daughters and that's fine by me. (made me think of Joan Langbord for a second)

Then I laughed and said, "Well, to each his own, it's none of my business anyway…. I was just curious".

It's obviously a brilliant move with respect the THE coin with this gentleman/lady/ collector/dealer/wannabe/king/ winner. Of course few of us LIKE this and often see it as being a "greedy guts" (as we referred to kids who had more than us, in our childhood ), but it's THE FREEDOM of being ourself in numismatics and taking whichever road we wish, that makes what we (collectors) do in the coin world a livelier world than extreme sports.

If I met the person, you know what I'd say ?

"YOU SUCK " … and I love it.

Outsmart the fox

messydesk · October 5, 2014 12:23AM

<< I can't help it, but I keep having this image pop into my head when I think of the inside of the house of the 1909 vdb hoarder ... LOL.
I think the roll of VDB's are probably in a box, inside a box, under the big box, next to the dishwashing liquid.

>>

I was thinking the same thing, but then maybe he just has one for each cat.

crypto79 · October 5, 2014 12:25AM

<< 

<< Smart coin to hoard >>

Really? I think it's a horrible idea. Unless this guy is young and plans to "feed" them back into the market slowly over many years, a deluge of 53 of the same type of "rare" coin entering the market at once could have pretty serious downward effects on value... >>

You are failing to factor in the hoarding's impact on the current value

he didn't build the group over night and ever auction he won and quick sale he entertained pushed demand to the next sale all while the matte proof had a jump in popularity. Is he the reason a 1909vdb has the record for small cent price.... Maybe, maybe not but I guarantee if you wanted one you will pay higher because of him.

Steve · October 5, 2014 12:55AM

<< Is he the reason a 1909vdb has the record for small cent price.... Maybe, maybe not but I guarantee if you wanted one you will pay higher because of him. >>

John, whether a potential buyer of one of this collector's 1909VDB MPL's will now pay a higher price IS the question we all will be asking. There REALLY is NO INCREASE in the quantity out there. There is only an increase in the quantity AVAILABLE. And THAT increase is SIGNIFICANT. (53 coins out of approximately 150). A current average PR64RB in a PCGS holder would sell today for somewhere between $20k and $40k. Will this collector hold out for that kind of money or will he let his hoard go for much less. Time will tell. Steve

291fifth · October 5, 2014 12:56AM

Hoarding over the past 35 years has had a great impact on US coin availability. I suspect most collectors would be surprised at the true populations of most key and semi-key coins. There are probably a lot more out there than most realize and many are not slabbed.

Steve · October 5, 2014 1:20AM

<< Hoarding over the past 35 years has had a great impact on US coin availability. I suspect most collectors would be surprised at the true populations of most key and semi-key coins. There are probably a lot more out there than most realize and many are not slabbed. >>

291fifth: The 1909VDB MPL is different from most other key and semi-key coins because it is generally recognized in the hobby that only about 400 to 600 were actually released in 1909 and that less than 200 are now in certified holders of PCGS and NGC. If there are "some" other 1909VDB MPL's out there in non certified holders, knowledgeable potential buyers will not purchase such coins at current market prices because they will question WHY such a coin was NOT certified by PCGS or NGC. There may be a few certified coins in ANACS holders today but certainly not more than 4 to 5 of the 23 that ANACS has reported. This collector owns the 1 of 6 ICG coins that ICG has reported certified. (The Childs example) I doubt any others are currently in ICG holders. If there are any collectors who currently own a RAW 1909VDB MPL they should definitely have the coin certified because it might REALLY be a 1909VDB regular business strike coin for which 25 million were minted. Steve

ricko · October 5, 2014 1:24AM

All part of collecting or a hobby..... each pursues his own interests and desires. Cheers, RickO

BillJones · October 5, 2014 1:30AM

<< Sorry, but this person is not a friend to collectors. >>

I agree completely. I guess now I know why I have been unable to find any examples of this coin.

I have known a few dealers and collectors who have tried to hoard the supply of certain item over the years that I have been a collector. It is usually a fool's errand.

I knew one guy who tried to hoard as many of the 1873 Boston Numismatic Society medals as he could. I didn't understand that one from the financial perspective because the market for that item was so small, and the piece is not tremendously rare. I wanted one because I belonged to that organization at one time. I found one with little trouble in an exonumia auction at the going price. Like I said, it's not rare, but this guy soaked all of the pieces he could find at the local Boston area shows.

Usually the hoarder ends up with the following history. As he or she takes more and more pieces off the market, the prices go up. Therefore each additional piece that he or she buys is less of a bargain. When it comes time to sell, the hoarder has to be careful that he or she sells the items over a period of time. Otherwise they will flood the market and depress the prices. Sometimes it takes a long while to dispose of such a hoard at favorable prices.

The 1909-VDB cent in Matte Proof is an interesting item, but it is a Matte Proof, and a lot of collectors don't like Matte Proofs. I'd like to own one so that I could have a complete type set of 20th century coins in Proof, but I'd never pay a ridiculous price for it. I have a feeling that other collectors feel the same way.

PRECIOUSMENTAL · October 5, 2014 2:40AM

I recall a short story from Junior High School, early 1970's.
An elderly gentleman had spent his entire life attempting to obtain every farthing coin, after he was done, 'there was nothing left in life.'
I searched many different terms, however, can't find it.

Overdate · October 5, 2014 3:30AM

There are likely quite a few 19th century coins with surviving date/mm combinations in the low hundreds. I wouldn't be surprised if sizable hoards exist for several of them.

291fifth · October 5, 2014 3:31AM

<< 

<< Hoarding over the past 35 years has had a great impact on US coin availability. I suspect most collectors would be surprised at the true populations of most key and semi-key coins. There are probably a lot more out there than most realize and many are not slabbed. >>

291fifth: The 1909VDB MPL is different from most other key and semi-key coins because it is generally recognized in the hobby that only about 400 to 600 were actually released in 1909 and that less than 200 are now in certified holders of PCGS and NGC. If there are "some" other 1909VDB MPL's out there in non certified holders, knowledgeable potential buyers will not purchase such coins at current market prices because they will question WHY such a coin was NOT certified by PCGS or NGC. There may be a few certified coins in ANACS holders today but certainly not more than 4 to 5 of the 23 that ANACS has reported. This collector owns the 1 of 6 ICG coins that ICG has reported certified. (The Childs example) I doubt any others are currently in ICG holders. If there are any collectors who currently own a RAW 1909VDB MPL they should definitely have the coin certified because it might REALLY be a 1909VDB regular business strike coin for which 25 million were minted. Steve

>>

"Old Money" collections from the east coast probably contain more uncertified examples than most realize. The members of this forum are very, very slab oriented but the "old money" collections that have been passed down over the years are often held by people whose wealth is so great that they have little concern for things such as slabbing. US coins are not rare or even scarce ... but they are popular.

crypto79 · October 5, 2014 3:35AM

While there are a few old collections still out there I do believe they are becoming less and less frequent. I would be shocked if there was another newmen out there

pennyannie · October 5, 2014 3:48AM

If I owned all of these I would not want to open the windows and tell everyone. I bought a few of the common dated lower graded mpl's for around 500 bucks before the few dealers and collectors pushed on them driving the prices thru the roof 5 years ago. The mpl's are one of my favorite coins but I am hard pressed to see the value in them compared to a well struck business strike of same date.

ambro51 · October 5, 2014 3:57AM

I'll bet a lot of crappy looking coins are on that group.

Walkerguy21D · October 5, 2014 4:29AM

Neat story, and it bothers me not all that someone does this.

To 291fifth's point:

<< I suspect most collectors would be surprised at the true populations of most key and semi-key coins. There are probably a lot more out there than most realize and many are not slabbed. >>

Yep, it seems a fair number of collectors and dealers have favorite coins/dates. A dealer friend of mine I know likes 13S dimes and 1811 and 11/0 large cents. He told me last week he about 10 rolls (500) of the dimes put away. This to me indeed seems like 'fool's errand', as I'm sure it's barely scratched the surface of the remaining coins, and his capital could be better deployed elsewhere. The 1811 cent is another story, as it's far less available and large cents are always popular. I'm getting ready to hit him up for one of 11/0 coins, as I've had trouble finding one myself.

WingedLiberty1957 · October 5, 2014 4:35AM

<< 

<< I can't help it, but I keep having this image pop into my head when I think of the inside of the house of the 1909 vdb hoarder ... LOL.
I think the roll of VDB's are probably in a box, inside a box, under the big box, next to the dishwashing liquid.

>>

I was thinking the same thing, but then maybe he just has one for each cat. >>

LOL To each their own.

I have to admit that I am guilty of this to a smaller degree ... I have over ten 1961 Proof Lincolns.

Still I wish he would get his hoard TrueView photo'd ... just for the numismatic record.

WingedLiberty1957 · October 5, 2014 4:36AM

<< I'll bet a lot of crappy looking coins are on that group. >>

Yes, that would not surprise me at all

Maybe 40 dogs, 10 nice ones, and a few gems (and we know he has at least one monster).

cwt · October 5, 2014 6:39AM

Exactly in which issue of Coin World did this story appear?

AMRC · October 5, 2014 6:48AM

To each their own. Why the concern about selling? Clearly this is not the collectors problem.

ranshdow · October 5, 2014 6:56AM

Timing is interesting. Now that the market knows there's a hoard, wouldn't that work in the hoarders favor if he's still trying to accumulate?

Steve · October 5, 2014 7:04AM

<< Exactly in which issue of Coin World did this story appear? >>

The article appears on page 6 of the October 20th issue of Coin World. It was issued online at their web site yesterday (Saturday) and should be available in the print edition starting tomorrow (Monday).
Steve

cwt · October 5, 2014 7:09AM

Thank you, Steve.

BTW -- on the subject of hoards and their dispersion, the following is a link to a Dave Bowers article on the 1856 Flying Eagle cent...
link

Zoins · October 5, 2014 7:19AM

Talk about taking key date collecting to the next level.

DMWJR · October 5, 2014 7:24AM

Hmmm ... I think I will start hoarding 1913 Liberty Nickels and 1804 dollars ...

DIMEMAN · October 5, 2014 7:46AM

People that do this make it frustrating to us other collectors. All it is to me is GREED!

I remember back in the 80's I needed a 1885-S Seated Dime as it was the only date and mint mark I needed to complete the set. I couldn't find one anywhere. Gerry Fortin had none...Brian Greer had none, Dick Osburn had none, L&C coins had none.....even Jack Beymer didn't have one and he usually had everything. Finally Bruce Longyear of J.J. Teaparty found a hoard of about 15 or so somewhere in Florida. They were all raw. He picked through them and got the best one for me which was probably close to xf. I paid double the price guide for it and was very happy to get it.

That one is long gone and I now have a PCGS40 that I got from Dick Osburn several years ago at a FUN show.

Getting that first one was very frustrating and I have no use for those collectors that do this!

All it is.....IS GREED!!!

drwstr123 · October 5, 2014 8:05AM

Greed is when someone else has several of what you want one.

BillJones · October 5, 2014 8:12AM

<< I'll bet a lot of crappy looking coins are on that group. >>

I am not so sure about that. It seems to be that these coins have be fairly decent to prove that they are Matte Proofs. The main thing that would make them "crappy looking" would be corrosion spots. If he has bought a bunch of pieces with those, especially if the spots are green ugly, he doesn't have much. I image the hoard probably ranges from Matte Proof 62, Brown to that monster he bought at auction.

DavidLawrence · October 5, 2014 8:35AM

I find these stories very interesting. The idea of acquiring an entire extant population of a certain rarity is not unusual among collectors IMO.

For years one particular collector famously was hoarding 1844 "Little Orphan Annie" Seated dimes. He would buy every coin he could, in every grade from filler to gem. He drove prices from a few bucks in Good to the hundreds of dollars, and I believe he acquired thousands of them. Just about everyone knew about his activity which didn't bother him one bit.

I often thought the only way he could come out ahead on this investment would be to physically destroy them (i.e. melt them into bars) with video evidence, and leave a dozen or fewer coins. Perhaps others can fill in some details, but I believe he passed away before anything interesting was done with the coins, and from 2008-2011 Heritage sold -- literally -- over 500 slabbed coins from the estate (?). 1844 Dimes sold at Heritage

Same collector also was hoarding 1794 half dollars, as I recall. Not sure what else...

DoubleEagle59 · October 5, 2014 8:41AM

Maybe he's 95 years old and Abe's grandson

COLLECTOR OWNS 53 1909VDB MATTE PROOF LINCOLN CENTS/WITH LINK TO CW

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