Another view point on the Kennedys from Rich Uhrich

EastonCollection · August 17, 2014 12:35PM

Interesting observations on the marketing of the Gold Kennedy's- some really cool and rare coins listed too!

Link

410a · August 17, 2014 12:47PM

Excellent points; Security issues, violations of ethics selling that coin for $100,000 !!!!!!!!!! Do I hear anyone??? Validating what I said in a previous post???? "Duty of Care" is a legal term not only and ethics code violation and a security breach. ............................Nice Website joined mailing list and bookmarked.

roadrunner · August 17, 2014 1:02PM

And, I will be patiently awaiting news on what disciplinary actions will be taken by ANA and PNG against the dealers who abused the system and compromised our security.

Or instead of that........ an opportunity for more awards?

Barndog · August 17, 2014 1:04PM

I still doubt the veracity of the $100,000 claim.

And yes, Rich Uhrich is one of the best!

illini420 · August 17, 2014 1:07PM

<< And, I will be patiently awaiting news on what disciplinary actions will be taken by ANA and PNG against the dealers who abused the system and compromised our security.

Or instead of that........ an opportunity for more awards? >>

One of the biggest buyers of the gold Kennedy halves was Minshull... he had the army of buyers in bright neon shirts and had several groups of buyers in line... and the ANA named him Dealer of the Year this year...

roadrunner · August 17, 2014 1:16PM

<< 

<< And, I will be patiently awaiting news on what disciplinary actions will be taken by ANA and PNG against the dealers who abused the system and compromised our security.

Or instead of that........ an opportunity for more awards? >>

One of the biggest buyers of the gold Kennedy halves was Minshull... he had the army of buyers in bright neon shirts and had several groups of buyers in line... and the ANA named him Dealer of the Year this year... >>

I'm puzzled by some of the dealers that buried collectors left and right back before PCGS, and have since won numerous awards from major numismatic organizations. I guess time heals all wounds.

....but not the wallet.

Unknown · August 17, 2014 1:20PM

This content has been removed.

bestday · August 17, 2014 1:23PM

<< 

<< And, I will be patiently awaiting news on what disciplinary actions will be taken by ANA and PNG against the dealers who abused the system and compromised our security.

Or instead of that........ an opportunity for more awards? >>

One of the biggest buyers of the gold Kennedy halves was Minshull... he had the army of buyers in bright neon shirts and had several groups of buyers in line... and the ANA named him Dealer of the Year this year... >>

Can't believe some of those paid sitters who had dealer badges ....were part of gangs that prey coin dealers
The main dealers of the kennedy ANA show buying frenzy, have been crossed off our coin club list for buying or selling from those dealers
Nice to see some dealers speaking up on the poor US Mint and ANA Show managers decisions

BAJJERFAN · August 17, 2014 1:24PM

<< 

<< 

<< And, I will be patiently awaiting news on what disciplinary actions will be taken by ANA and PNG against the dealers who abused the system and compromised our security.

Or instead of that........ an opportunity for more awards? >>

One of the biggest buyers of the gold Kennedy halves was Minshull... he had the army of buyers in bright neon shirts and had several groups of buyers in line... and the ANA named him Dealer of the Year this year... >>

I'm puzzled by some of the dealers that buried collectors left and right back before PCGS, and have since won numerous awards from major numismatic organizations. I guess time heals all wounds.

....but not the wallet. >>

Time ought to wound some heels too!

EastonCollection · August 17, 2014 1:27PM

My feeling - clearly this shows that the best marketing plans went wrong- and several dealers took advantage of the situation for their own profit - How sad.....

Kudbegud · August 17, 2014 1:49PM

<< And, I will be patiently awaiting news on what disciplinary actions will be taken by ANA and PNG against the dealers who abused the system and compromised our security. >>

Nice article. Can't wait for part 2.

Any guesses if disciplinary action will or will not be taken? Some could done in private that we may never be privy to.

1) Strong action
2) Slap on the wrist
3) No action

Will the release of the upcoming 4 coin set be a repeat?

1) It will be just as bad
2) It will be toned down but almost as bad
3) New rules strictly enforced
4) No sales at a show, all on line, by phone or snail mail

Justlooking · August 17, 2014 2:12PM

The man makes sense.

Ain't nothing gonna be done to nobody. The people who run these organizations are afraid of being sued by those with deep pockets, I'm sure. Ethics schmethics.

jayPem · August 17, 2014 2:46PM

$100,000 for a gold Kennedy???

That makes $8,950 for an AU bust half seem almost reasonable...

MsMorrisine · August 17, 2014 3:13PM

No action

And the mint will have new rules but it will still be a mess with calls from people other than me saying it's still crazy.

Barndog · August 17, 2014 3:15PM

<< $100,000 for a gold Kennedy???

That makes $8,950 for an AU bust half seem almost reasonable...

>>

Did you see that half in person? It is phenomenal!

Justlooking · August 17, 2014 3:43PM

<< 

<< $100,000 for a gold Kennedy???

That makes $8,950 for an AU bust half seem almost reasonable...

>>

Did you see that half in person? It is phenomenal! >>

First bought! Yes! Amazing!

I still own the first pair of underwear I ever bought ... worth sending in for a special label?

Barndog · August 17, 2014 3:48PM

<< 

<< 

<< $100,000 for a gold Kennedy???

That makes $8,950 for an AU bust half seem almost reasonable...

>>

Did you see that half in person? It is phenomenal! >>

First bought! Yes! Amazing!

I still own the first pair of underwear I ever bought ... worth sending in for a special label? >>

LOL...the bust half, silly. All those Kennedy halves look alike

numisma · August 17, 2014 3:52PM

Well, I want to add a bit of information regarding the Kennedy gold. My co-worker and I went to the ANA booth before the regular show started. We asked if we could purchase 4 badges for friends who were coming in.

The badges we requested were for a couple of forum members and a couple of our local customers. We were told "no, the people getting the badges must present ID." That makes sense to me, for security reasons. What I do NOT understand is how several other dealers could acquire hundreds of passes for compelte strangers. What did I do wrong?

Justlooking · August 17, 2014 4:39PM

<< LOL...the bust half, silly. All those Kennedy halves look alike >>

Oops! Ha. Thought you were going for sarcasm.

Justlooking · August 17, 2014 4:45PM

<< Well, I want to add a bit of information regarding the Kennedy gold. My co-worker and I went to the ANA booth before the regular show started. We asked if we could purchase 4 badges for friends who were coming in.

The badges we requested were for a couple of forum members and a couple of our local customers. We were told "no, the people getting the badges must present ID." That makes sense to me, for security reasons. What I do NOT understand is how several other dealers could acquire hundreds of passes for compelte strangers. What did I do wrong? >>

Good question.

Explain that, ANA.

GBurger717 · August 17, 2014 8:50PM

<< Well, I want to add a bit of information regarding the Kennedy gold. My co-worker and I went to the ANA booth before the regular show started. We asked if we could purchase 4 badges for friends who were coming in.

The badges we requested were for a couple of forum members and a couple of our local customers. We were told "no, the people getting the badges must present ID." That makes sense to me, for security reasons. What I do NOT understand is how several other dealers could acquire hundreds of passes for compelte strangers. What did I do wrong? >>

You did not buy enough. Open that wallet more and you would have been ok!

BillJones · August 17, 2014 11:09PM

<< 

<< And, I will be patiently awaiting news on what disciplinary actions will be taken by ANA and PNG against the dealers who abused the system and compromised our security.

Or instead of that........ an opportunity for more awards? >>

One of the biggest buyers of the gold Kennedy halves was Minshull... he had the army of buyers in bright neon shirts and had several groups of buyers in line... and the ANA named him Dealer of the Year this year... >>

Do you wonder why those of us who are ANA members don't like the ANA? There is one of the answers. The income you earn from your job is your reward. A collectors' organization does not need to give them more rewards.

Buying dealers' badges for these line sitters was totally outrageous. One of the ideas behind the photo dealer badge is to keep the wrong people from going behind the tables at the booths. I don't blame Mr. Uhrich one bit for being incensed at that.

The ANA has all these rules at their shows that are supposed to make them a cut above other shows. Some show promoters allow small dealers and amateur dealers to fill spaces at the bourse on the last day of the show after the main dealers have left. The ANA does not allow that. The ANA has this elaborate system whereby the spot in the bourse is dictated by how much money or in-kind assets you have contributed to the organization. Other show promoters, like FUN, don't do that.

Yet the ANA lets dealers buy dealer badges for line sitters? Shame on the ANA and the dealers who did that! Given the amount that dealers have to pay for tables at the ANA, the honest dealers should expect better security from the ANA.

The PNG needs to get after these dealers too. Not taking any disciplinary action against casts a negative reflection on the PNG.

dbcoin · August 17, 2014 11:25PM

The PNG and ANA are DEALER organizations. They protect DEALERS. They do nothing for collectors aside from a library.

BillJones · August 17, 2014 11:31PM

<< The PNG and ANA are DEALER organizations. They protect DEALERS. They do nothing for collectors aside from a library. >>

There is a lot of truth to that, but if their image BECOMES that they will be unable to fulfill their mission because they will be unable to provide cover for dealers among collectors.

Any collectors who have done business or observed PNG dealers know that there are some outstanding professional dealers in the organization, but they also know that there are some rotten apples in it too. The PNG would do well to clean up its messes now than them This fiasco was an example of a mess.

dbcoin · August 17, 2014 11:41PM

what about coin doctoring? The PNG and ANA did nothing for that. They are DEALER organizations. They sell their TPG endorsement to the highest bidder. I don't know why a collector would sign up aside from the mag and library.

dlimb2 · August 18, 2014 1:19AM

Organized Crime...is not a new thing!

FullStrike · August 18, 2014 1:31AM

Organized Crime

Just another term for profitable business

Whatever happened to the co-op concept of getting your goods without the big middleman taking his cut.

badhop55 · August 18, 2014 1:34AM

Ethics and Money are inversely proportional.

The simple solution to all this is the Mint sells these types of issues only through Mint outlets. Never did understand why they were giving the coin shows/dealers head of the line privileges. Is the Mint producing for dealers or collectors?

Zubie · August 18, 2014 1:55AM

Can someone please post the dealer names or company that were "gaming the system". Or at least PM me. I'd rather not buy from these dealers again.

Greeniejr · August 18, 2014 2:42AM

I am sure nobody here knows the whole story but my understanding is that someone contacted the dealer who owned the first coin slabbed and offered him the obscene amount of money. If that is the case, there is absolutely no violation of any kind. Someone made an offer and it was accepted. If at any point the dealer put it out for sale at that price or made any representations as to the rarity/value then it would definitely be a violation of the code of ethics as quoted by Rich. Without that information, it is impossible to make any kind of judgement.
Here is a scenario: You have a piece of art (a print) that you absolutely love with a realistic market value of $2500. Because you love it, maybe it is worth $10,000 to you in order to sell it. Some crazy person wants the exact number of your print and calls and offers to buy it from you for $100,000 and wires you good funds. Would you say oh no I will take $10,000 for it and return $90,000 or would you take the money and run. From the story about the person contacting the dealer it seems more like this than anything else. If there are any facts otherwise then we have a problem that needs to be addressed.

Greeniejr · August 18, 2014 2:43AM

Further this only applies to selling the coin at the price and is not a comment or judgement as to the complaint about "gaming the system"

RichieURich · August 18, 2014 2:58AM

<< I am sure nobody here knows the whole story but my understanding is that someone contacted the dealer who owned the first coin slabbed and offered him the obscene amount of money. If that is the case, there is absolutely no violation of any kind. Someone made an offer and it was accepted. If at any point the dealer put it out for sale at that price or made any representations as to the rarity/value then it would definitely be a violation of the code of ethics as quoted by Rich. Without that information, it is impossible to make any kind of judgement.
Here is a scenario: You have a piece of art (a print) that you absolutely love with a realistic market value of $2500. Because you love it, maybe it is worth $10,000 to you in order to sell it. Some crazy person wants the exact number of your print and calls and offers to buy it from you for $100,000 and wires you good funds. Would you say oh no I will take $10,000 for it and return $90,000 or would you take the money and run. From the story about the person contacting the dealer it seems more like this than anything else. If there are any facts otherwise then we have a problem that needs to be addressed. >>

I understand your point, but I was referring to selling the coin for $100K to a retail customer. (My understanding is that a dealer other than the original dealer actually sold the coin to the retail customer.) If a dealer offered $100K for the coin, I have no problem with that. But the fact that you can get $100K from a retail customer DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.

I read that the dealer who sold the coin for $100K defended the price by saying "this is an important coin". But actually, the coin is identical to those sold for $1,240 on the U. S. Mint's website. I guess the dealer would have rather not said "this is a generic coin with an important label".

Just my opinion.

Sunshine Rare Coins · August 18, 2014 3:11AM

Whats really ridiculous about it is that it is not even the first coin struck - just the first coin released at the ANA!

Greeniejr · August 18, 2014 3:13AM

Rich, my understanding was that a retail customer contacted the dealer and offered the insane price. If the dealer made the comments about it being important as part of negotiation it is not a good thing. If it was BS hype after the fact to the media, well people do that to make the story better. In this case, the timeline is very important.

Boosibri · August 18, 2014 3:16AM

<< 

<< I am sure nobody here knows the whole story but my understanding is that someone contacted the dealer who owned the first coin slabbed and offered him the obscene amount of money. If that is the case, there is absolutely no violation of any kind. Someone made an offer and it was accepted. If at any point the dealer put it out for sale at that price or made any representations as to the rarity/value then it would definitely be a violation of the code of ethics as quoted by Rich. Without that information, it is impossible to make any kind of judgement.
Here is a scenario: You have a piece of art (a print) that you absolutely love with a realistic market value of $2500. Because you love it, maybe it is worth $10,000 to you in order to sell it. Some crazy person wants the exact number of your print and calls and offers to buy it from you for $100,000 and wires you good funds. Would you say oh no I will take $10,000 for it and return $90,000 or would you take the money and run. From the story about the person contacting the dealer it seems more like this than anything else. If there are any facts otherwise then we have a problem that needs to be addressed. >>

I understand your point, but I was referring to selling the coin for $100K to a retail customer. (My understanding is that a dealer other than the original dealer actually sold the coin to the retail customer.) If a dealer offered $100K for the coin, I have no problem with that. But the fact that you can get $100K from a retail customer DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.

I read that the dealer who sold the coin for $100K defended the price by saying "this is an important coin". But actually, the coin is identical to those sold for $1,240 on the U. S. Mint's website. I guess the dealer would have rather not said "this is a generic coin with an important label".

Just my opinion. >>

I agree with your opinion.

numisma · August 18, 2014 3:24AM

<< Whats really ridiculous about it is that it is not even the first coin struck - just the first coin released at the ANA! >>

But it is pedigreed to a homeless gang member who was bused in from a yoga school located within a senior center. That is what makes it important. Says so right on the label.

Sunshine Rare Coins · August 18, 2014 3:29AM

Great video with interview from PNG members about the gold kennedy's

Link

Last 4 minutes are the most important

dlimb2 · August 18, 2014 5:23AM

Why wasn't it stopped the first day! It lasted 3 days before action was taken by any party. Let them explain why it took so long. Don't you know these people think we are a bunch of liming's out here? Hell yeah, you put a sticker on it we will buy at any price. Hell Yeah!

Bullsitter · August 18, 2014 5:34AM

dlimb2 · August 18, 2014 5:41AM

The Owner of Silvertowne, we don't set the price the market does.....Oh boy! People want the ANA label.... oh brother!

410a · August 18, 2014 5:44AM

accepting $100,000 for that coin and not correcting the potential buyer to his error in this transaction is akin to a "LIE BY OMISSION" period. Nothing further to discuss. Nothing. It shows a lack of Integrity. period.............

lkeigwin · August 18, 2014 6:08AM

I wonder if the dealer would accept a return?
Lance.

Kudbegud · August 18, 2014 6:09AM

Remember, no proof that this $100,000 sale took place. Knowing the dealer's propensity to hype makes the figure hard to believe. The sale probably took place. The sequence of events is not known. And...the buyer, described a a regular customer of the dealers company, has not come forward. Then again I'm not sure how believable his story would be either.

dbcoin · August 18, 2014 6:11AM

no one knows all the players and back channel deals that went on with this "promotion". Therefore saying one part of a large deal is bad is just conjecture. For all we know, the $100K coin buyer fronted money to bus in these people and buy 500 of the coins and split the money with a dealer.

astrorat · August 18, 2014 6:29AM

<< what about coin doctoring? The PNG and ANA did nothing for that. They are DEALER organizations. They sell their TPG endorsement to the highest bidder. I don't know why a collector would sign up aside from the mag and library. >>

The ANA is not a dealer organization. It's an educational, non-profit organization that serves its members; dealers, collectors, and the non-collecting public. If the membership chooses to elect primarily dealers to the Board of Governors to run the organization, then the ANA may indeed be run as if it is a dealer organization.

To paraphrase Joseph de Maistre, "the members get the organization they deserve."

keets · August 18, 2014 6:43AM

am I the only one who sees this sort of as "spamming" since a cut/paste of the relevant article wouldn't have directed us to view the inventory of an otherwise fine forum member dealer. this should be corrected and I would thing Rich would say the same.

bestday · August 18, 2014 6:46AM

<< 

<< Well, I want to add a bit of information regarding the Kennedy gold. My co-worker and I went to the ANA booth before the regular show started. We asked if we could purchase 4 badges for friends who were coming in.

The badges we requested were for a couple of forum members and a couple of our local customers. We were told "no, the people getting the badges must present ID." That makes sense to me, for security reasons. What I do NOT understand is how several other dealers could acquire hundreds of passes for compelte strangers. What did I do wrong? >>

You did not buy enough. Open that wallet more and you would have been ok! >>

seems dealers toeing the ANA line ....my dealer friend said no one entered the Chicago ANA Show bourse floor, unless they registered.. I just laughed

TwoSides2aCoin · August 18, 2014 6:48AM

Forget the coin. Does anyone have a total on hot dog sales for this show ? A food vendor could have sold lots of Grey Poupon.

Barndog · August 18, 2014 7:08AM

<< am I the only one who sees this sort of as "spamming" since a cut/paste of the relevant article wouldn't have directed us to view the inventory of an otherwise fine forum member dealer. this should be corrected and I would thing Rich would say the same. >>

cut and paste of the entire article would be copyright infringement (and yes, happens here a lot).

I'm sure you make the same comment every time the Legend show reports are made?

BillJones · August 18, 2014 7:14AM

<< Forget the coin. Does anyone have a total on hot dog sales for this show ? A food vendor could have sold lots of Grey Poupon. >>

Come now.

When have you seem Grey Poupon offered at a convention hot dog stand? You are lucky to get French's.

If you are at a "gourmet stand," you might get Gulden's mustard.

dlimb2 · August 18, 2014 8:02AM

One Coin Program that aired, said they did sell the coin for $100K. One night last week they had it on the show, or were suppose to have it on the air according to the announcer.
I did not view it.

Another view point on the Kennedys from Rich Uhrich

Comments

Leave a Comment