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Proof Sets.
keets
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So I am packing Proof Sets for wholesale and the thought came to me, why did everyone buy these since no one appears to want them?? Even collectors like me who Cherrypick Proof Sets really don't WANT the intact sets. What a great marketing ploy!!! Hats off to the US Mint.
Al H.
Al H.
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As few modern Proof singles I do not care for them at all. It dates from when I was a kid collector. When dealers broke up sets they had asking prices that were FAR higher for parts than the whole.
Or
People are given these sets have gifts and they take the gift and sell it at some point.
The 1964 Proof set sales were driven by the Kennedy half dollar. Dealers told me of receiving 1964 Proof dimes, quarters, nickels and cents coming in over the counter. People cutting up the sets, saving the half dollars, and spending the rest.
And mint sets! Holy cow! Don't get me started!
Another question... neither I nor several other dealers I asked ever had a problem getting 2012 sets from the mint when they came out... so why are they so freaking expensive now?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
gets awfully close on some sets to face, and is below melt on some silver sets
painful.....and everyone that comes in has them.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I think there are a lot of coin collectors out there who are not numismatists. In other words, they are content to collect coins from change and buy proof sets and mint sets without ever getting much deeper into the hobby. These people fall into the same trap as many others do: they assume what they have is valuable because it's old or it looks nice. They never bother to actually find out because it's more fun not knowing.
- Some were given as gifts by well meaning parents/grandparents? They weren't really wanted, and ended up being sold for whatever they could get.
- Since you don't get to pick your proof set, I have a feeling some were bought in bulk, and the purchaser went looking for Monster Grades. The rest were sold off.
- Proof sets seem like a nice way to start collecting, so people bought each year. Trouble is, when you get right down to it, the 1985 coins look pretty much exactly like the 1986 set. Eventually, the collector either moves on to more interesting material, or gets tired of buying every year...and the ones they have get sold for whatever they can get.
I kind of fall into the 3rd category when it comes to the States Quarters sets. I had visions of having a full set of proofs for all 50 designs. Then I just forgot to buy one one year, which stretched into 2 years, and I lost interest.
Want to buy what I have?
If so, are there particular issues to which I should pay particular attention?
I think it would be neat to have a later dated silver proof set for a show and tell with a non-collector. They aren't expensive and can strike up a conversation. I used to have a 1954 Proof Set in a Capitol Plastic Holder. When I could make $50 on it, out it went.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
the 1980 Mint Set is a strange one. it's bid at $5 with FV at $4.82.
And in all these past years I have yet to have one single toner of any variety. I am very grateful to our forefathers who bought proofs from the mint in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries though as they are my principal focus today. Especially nicely toned specimens.
OINK
<< <i>
Another question... neither I nor several other dealers I asked ever had a problem getting 2012 sets from the mint when they came out... so why are they so freaking expensive now? >>
This is something I have been wondering about also. I figure that these will eventually come more into line with the other sets.
Remember when the '99 sets were bringing crazy money at one time.
I would have thought that the '04 & 09 sets would have carried more of a premium, especially the '09 sets with the unique cents . . .
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
At what point is coin collecting hurt by the way proof sets are handled?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Right there with you Al. I can't understand why people seemingly bought 30 each of every year from 1971-1997 or so, or at least it seems that way based on deals we see. Common as heck, non silver (save the 3-pc 76 set), and no one wants them now. Same with 2000-2006 non silvers. Now-the Bicentennial and the millennium, and 2001... at least I understand why people would save extra sets from those years. But what was so great about, say, 1971? 85? 90?
And mint sets! Holy cow! Don't get me started!
Another question... neither I nor several other dealers I asked ever had a problem getting 2012 sets from the mint when they came out... so why are they so freaking expensive now? >>
I never really understood how the mint could sell so many millions of mint and
proof sets that almost no one ever wanted. A lot of the reason is that many are
given out for anniversary and birth gifts as a sort of afterthought so gramma and
grampa go to the coin shop for them. Many go up in price the first couple years
so some collectors buy extra to sell for a profit and cover the cost of what they keep.
Some collectors but them to keep their current denomination sets up to date.
Almost invariably the sets sink to rock bottom prices within 3 to 10 years and no
one seems to want them any longer. They all get destroyed as they come on the
market but there's still a backlog so no one cares about the dwindling availability
either.
<< <i>and the silver sets have a melt value. >>
Only if you melt them. Most people don't. They just hold onto them indefinitely, with the false comfort of knowing there is BV in them. But when time comes to liquidate they don't melt, they sell as proof collectibles as part of their larger collection or perhaps a spurrier set. They are on eBay all the time. Who is melting?
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I agree that many of them are purchased for birthdays and Christmas gifts but are unappreciated by the collectors and a lot of times non-coin people that get them. The simply do not want them, so they sell them to dealers at whatever the dealer may pay, and the dealer in turn does not want them in inventory, so he/she sells them for just a quick-flip turnover profit because they are readily available. Maybe someday in the far far future, say like 100 years from now they will be worth a little more, but probably not too much more. We are already 50 years into clad with little appreciation for the clad proof sets. Still it would be kinda neat to a new collector in the year 2068 to buy a 1968 proof set for under $10 or just over the clad half melt value.
Bob
<< <i>Beginning in 1968, the only way collectors could obtain "S" mint coins in several series was in proof sets. >>
I remember thinking in the late 70s that the S mint proof cents were going to be super rare.
But in seems that date/mintmark collectors stick with bus strikes so the proofs are nothing special, only proofs regardless of being S mint.
<< <i>
<< <i>and the silver sets have a melt value. >>
Only if you melt them. Most people don't. They just hold onto them indefinitely, with the false comfort of knowing there is BV in them. But when time comes to liquidate they don't melt, they sell as proof collectibles as part of their larger collection or perhaps a spurrier set. They are on eBay all the time. Who is melting? >>
I don't know about actual "melting" per se, but when silver was higher, a lot of dealers were buying low end common silver sets, cracking them and throwing them in with their 90%. Including us. Rolled up the non silver stuff and blew it out to, I believe, Littleton.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I seem to remember people trying to get theirs FIRST
so....they could SELL them.
Proof sets are just novelty items since the mintages soared in the 50s.
They're bulky, common, and dealers don't need any extras.
When I opened my first shop, I decided to have NOTHING to do with the garbage.
I was soon educated as grandparents were calling for them.
So...... I stocked a few.
A VERY few.
Other than ownership of the facility, they aren't a whit different from Franklin Mint crap.
IMO.
<< <i>Not many of the regular circulation proof sets post-1964 are overpriced. Not that they ever will be either. Mint sets are the same way. I once bought about about 20 mint sets from a dealer below face value. He knew it at the time, but just did not want to spend the time cutting the coins out to put them in circulation. (He bought them even cheaper.) I buy mint sets sometimes just to get the uncirculated coins for sets.
>>
I bewlieve there is a huge unrecognized potential in the mint sets. It's true that
proof set value will be determined by the whim of collectors but the mint sets contain
dimes and quarters and these are virtually unavailable except in the mint set. These
sets also contain the lion's share of all the Gem examples of every denomination. The
sets contain better made coins that are better preserved on average.
If and when people start collecting these modern coins they will very quickly discover
that the bulk of these sets have been destroyed due to their low value. They will find
they can't compete with other collectors without driving the price higher.
People still think the coins will never be collected but every single year there are more
and more collectors and they are becoming more and more sophisticated.
<< <i>
If and when people start collecting these modern coins they will very quickly discover
that the bulk of these sets have been destroyed due to their low value. They will find
they can't compete with other collectors without driving the price higher. >>
You can go into almost any coin shop in the country and they'll probably have no
more than a couple hundred of these sets. Most of the sets that have been sold
to date have been destroyed so this leaves a couple hundred sets in several hun-
dred coin shops plus those bought by the original owner to supply a potential mass
market. People just aren't noticing what's going on. Folders are being sold in huge
numbers for modern coins and collectors are continually upgrading.
There is no supply and a growing demand that could take off. Success breeds sucess
especially in collectibles and more especially in coins.
Coin collectors don't see because most coin collectors really believe that there have
been no coins made since 1964.
The change will be sudden and it will occur as soon as a collector can't locate some-
thing like a nice '69 quarter or a choice '82-P despite a willingness to pay market
price. Soon after it will become common knowledge that we've let these coins go.
There have been a lot of roadsigns and there's only one left.
Are we there yet?
<< <i>
If and when people start collecting these modern coins they will very quickly discover
that the bulk of these sets have been destroyed due to their low value. They will find
they can't compete with other collectors without driving the price higher. >>
I broke out a run of proof sets, 1956-1999, for my Dansco albums. I have no interest in the original packaging for these as it is too bulky. I've cut up hundreds of mint sets for the 1971 - 1981 time frame keeping the nicer coins and spending the low end coins and the coins that went terminal from the packaging of that era. Most of the mint sets that I purchased were at 71-105% of face value, so there is a profit even if spent.
My Jefferson Registry:
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/191115
Sam, while I respect your opinion on Modern markets I think that on this matter you aren't even close. I wouldn't want to throw out a guess but I would consider that a large percentage of the Sets issued still exist intact.
Really valuable coins (including rare and precious metal coins) are out of reach for most folks, which makes the interest in all other areas of coin collecting either too complex, too financially dangerous (countless people have had coins they thought were valuable only to find out when the tried to sell said cons the value was actually not much better than face) or too much their father's method of building wealth. Most people want instant value gratification in purchasing coins today (flipping or cherry picking) rather than building a beautiful, complete set of coins.
I can't say I blame them...most people today do not have a hobby...they are simply trying to survive and raise their family; hobbies have become too expensive.
When LBJ chose to debase the coinage, I remember plenty of comments of the sort about how the new coins were worthless tokens with no real value. Maybe it's true, or maybe cladking is right. It's a tough call.
I knew it would happen.
this is a very astute point. again, not to disagree with Cladking who keeps saying that the quality in the Mint Sets is above average, but I think the quality control of the pre-1974 Proof Sets and pre-2004 Mint Sets is a large part of the problem. prior to those dates it was an unreasonable expectation to buy one set and have Gem coins of each denomination, and it can still be challenging with improved manufacturing methods and QC that is leaps and bounds past what it used to be.
as an example I would point to most of the members who are putting together Proof year sets from the 1950's forward.
<< <i>
I broke out a run of proof sets, 1956-1999, for my Dansco albums. I have no interest in the original packaging for these as it is too bulky. I've cut up hundreds of mint sets for the 1971 - 1981 time frame keeping the nicer coins and spending the low end coins and the coins that went terminal from the packaging of that era. Most of the mint sets that I purchased were at 71-105% of face value, so there is a profit even if spent. >>
Welcome aboard.
Most people would be very surprised to know the extent this is has has been
going on for over 40 years. Initially it was primarily just wholesalers cutting
them up to supply the aenemic demand for singles because the wholesale price
of the sets was too high to justify collectors doing it. But thesesets just con-
tinued to flood onto the market since the mintages were huge. This supply was
so great and the demand so tiny that people didn't even know the best examples
of ,oderns tend toappear only in the mint sets and that nice examples and Gems
can be rare otherwise. As the years went by there was an increasing demand
this demand was in the scores or hundreds and the supply was in the hundreds
of thousands so the price just continued down and down to the point many sets
that came on the market were unceremoniously cut up and dumped in the cash
register.
I've watched this market closely since 1974 and the typical mint set was bought
by a 40 to 50 year old man as a part of five mint sets and then these were taken
to the coin shop and dumped for whatever price they could get by the heirs of the
estate. The early clad mint sets are pretty much gone now because people who
were in their 40's and 50's in 1974 are pretty much gone now. Many others have
been sold by tired longs and some people knowbefore they go to the coin shop that
it's easier to just spend the coins; it saves a trip to the store and they get a better
deal.
Sure there's a demand for the sets and it's not insubstantial but to a large degree
this demand is new. There are thousands, maybe tens of thousands, putting col-
lections together and millions more collecting them very casually. But even in aggre-
gate all these coins don't add up to a lot because thousands of coins aren't enough
to supply anything like a mass market. The remaining sets wouldn't be enough to
make up the difference even if many of them weren't tarnished and about half are
already picked over for nicer coins.
Everyone has always told me there would never be any demand for these because
they are just debased junk but I've never believed it. People should look to see what
modern Soviet era coins are going for if they believe "debased junk" is uncollectible.
People are collecting moderns and every indication is that it is continuing to get more
popular all the time.
There simply isn't the kind of supply for nice coins as people imagine. Some of these
coins don't even appear very nice in the mint set very often and rolls can be scarce or
virtually rare. Varieties will be highly elusive especially in XF or better.
People imagine that minting 2,000,000 mint sets each year is equivalent to setting
coins aside for the future but it actually requires that a collector takes the pains to
physically set them aside because they otherwise have just ended up in pocket change.
Of the stuff that regularly sells for a profit, these are the lowest margin ones.
<< <i>
Sam, while I respect your opinion on Modern markets I think that on this matter you aren't even close. I wouldn't want to throw out a guess but I would consider that a large percentage of the Sets issued still exist intact. >>
I know you disagree on this point. I've talked to very many dealers and wholesalers
about how much draw down there is in the incoming supply which is mostly sold to the
shops by heirs of the original purchasers. And I've analyzed this draw down as much as
is possible with the anecdotal evidence available. The sets tend to come into the shops
in fifteen to thirty year runs dating to about three years earlier. These sets then tend to
accumulate in dealer stock unless there is a substantial quantity of high value dates and
these will be shipped to the wholesalers immediately. Dealers used to try to keep two
or three of these in stock for retail sales but retail sales were very few and very far be-
tween until 1999. Even today dealers hardly do a brisk business in the older mint sets,
or for that matter, even the proof sets.
So the draw down looks like about 5% retail sales and maybe 10% to speculators and
other short term holders. Very many many of these speculators are longer term and will
probably destroy the set immediately. The sets end up at the wholesalers who also have
a small draw down but the bulk of the sets will be destroyed to make denomination sets.
There's also draw down to put coins in the cash register but this is highly variable over the
years. At one point there were eight or ten dates that were routinely cut up by dealers for
small change.
The way I figure it there just aren't many sets like the 1969 mint set coming into coin shops
any more. People don'tnotice partly because surviving sets often look bad and because the
supply which is very low is still much higher than the demand. But now days there are hun-
dreds of thousands of clad quarter collections out there and the vast majority are either lack-
ing the date or have a poor example of it. Even the BU sets typically have a pretty bad Phil-
ly coin because that's the way they come.
Many moderns are in the same boat; they are tough in attractive condition. There's a big dif-
ference between a nice XF '69 quarter and a not so nice one just as there's a huge difference
between a typical Unc and a choice or Gem example. The reason the tiny supply of nice mod-
erns isn't noticed is solely because the demand is even smaller.
I'd guess the attrition on something like a 1971 mint set is approaching 75% and it's even high-
er on the 40% silver sets. Most of the coins from the destroyed sets are gone and many of the
coins in the surviving sets are tarnished.
Proof sets have a lower attrition but it's still substantial.
<< <i> Most of the circulating post-WWII European coins from 1945 to 1952 or so are cheaply-made, from base metals, and are in poor condition which keeps me sufficiently uninterested in starting any sort of collection, in spite of their history. >>
A lot of these are worth a lot of money now in pristine condition.
<< <i>
When LBJ chose to debase the coinage, I remember plenty of comments of the sort about how the new coins were worthless tokens with no real value. Maybe it's true, or maybe cladking is right. It's a tough call. >>
They even get compared to Chuck-e-cheese tokens and Shell Oil tokens.
But they are still coins. They are still US coins. They mark a very important era of US history
and the clad dime is the second longest design in US history to be unchanged. Next year will
be the 50th year of the clad Roosevelt and there will be nearly 50 billion in circulation.
<< <i>I believe there is a huge unrecognized potential in the mint sets. . . If and when people start collecting these modern coins they will very quickly discover that the bulk of these sets have been destroyed due to their low value. >>
I think there is even greater potential for the 1959-1964 mint sets in their original packaging. Ironically, the bulk of these sets were destroyed due to their high (silver) value. For dates such as 1959 and 1961 the number of intact sets remaining is probably in the mid five figures at most.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>The real opportunity will be with world sets- >>
Indeed.
While there's probably less risk in US moderns and this will continue world moderns
can be far far scarcer. Mint and proof set mintages tend to be far lower and even fewer
coins were saved by collectors. The attrition on sets is even higher than on US set.
Less is known about the foreign sets giving newer collectors an advantage.
<< <i>During the change over from silver to clad, I believe that the number of collectors actually peaked, driving those peak sales of mint and proof sets. My logic in this is that these were the years where numismatic publications had their peak circulation. Numismatist, Numismatic Scrapbook and Red Book all reached peak sales in the mid-sixties. That's also why you can buy a 50 year-old near-Mint Red Book from 1965 for $2. >>
People weren't buying it to look up the value of their 1965 quarter.
The coin market was ina mania in 1964 because the number of participants was exploding.
Countless millions of young baby boomers were collecting coins and it seemed this growth
would go on forever. Two year old nickel rolls could bring a dollar and a half over face and
this was back when a dollar and a half was a lot of money. Many recent date coins were
bringing even larger premiums and sales of both mint and proof sets were soaring.
Then in September, 1964 a date freeze was announced and the market cracked. By July, '65
the coinage act of 1965 had passed and a new composition was announced and the market broke.
There was even a bill introduced in Congress that would make it illegal to collect coins minted
after 1964 and collectors were apalled. There was no need though because people quit collecting
moderns just as they did in every country that switched to base metal after WW II. Both proof
and mint sets were discontinued but they did offer the specially made SMS's eventially. Sales
were aenemic. It's a wonder mintages ever returned to their old levels but where attrition had
been low it was very high after 1967.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
They look good inside - or - outside of plastic. But if they look good enough, the plastic should be more rigid.
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