What's with dealers refering to Heritage auction results

410a · July 23, 2014 4:42AM

To justify the pricing they ask for on a coin dealers refer to an auction house results. I can understand a "Rare Coin" but, things like an AU 55 PCGS 1927 P Standing Liberty Quarter or a VF 35 1828 Bust quarter the retort from the dealer is "well one just sold here on Hertiage Auctions for XYZ $ and one sold here for yz $" I mean really? What does this have to do with the coin at hand and "retail sales" and the lack of consignment fees and immediate payment?

CoinZip · July 23, 2014 4:45AM

<< To justify the pricing they ask for on a coin dealers refer to an auction house results. I can understand a "Rare Coin" but, things like an AU 55 PCGS 1927 P Standing Liberty Quarter or a VF 35 1828 Bust quarter the retort from the dealer is "well one just sold here on Hertiage Auctions for XYZ $ and one sold here for yz $" I mean really? What does this have to do with the coin at hand and "retail sales" and the lack of consignment fees and immediate payment? >>

What reference do you think they should be using ???

MGLICKER · July 23, 2014 4:46AM

Heritage archive is a great source for recent pricing info.

Of course one must be comparing relatively similar coins.

410a · July 23, 2014 4:48AM

Hey Zip ! Answering a question with a question is not only sarcastic it's bad form. Sincerely, Michael

DaveW · July 23, 2014 4:48AM

it sounds reasonable to me

LochNESS · July 23, 2014 4:49AM

Well, in the world coin market, there are no PCGS price guides and no "grey sheet" or "blue sheet" so we look at auction prices. In the USA market it's still the best way to judge the retail value of a coin. If you want to know how much a coin is worth today, look at recent auction results. Coinfacts is auction data, for example. I believe the PCGS price guide is also based on auction data (somebody confirm or correct me please).

By the time Red Book is printed, it's out of date. By the time Krause is printed, it's out of date. And those grey and blue sheets are also fairly worthless. So yes auction results are the primary method for appraisers and dealers to determine the value of a slabbed and graded coin. Raw coins are another story altogether. If it isn't slabbed, then it's not worth a numerical grade. Only your general opinion of XF, AU, MS, etc. .

Never pay 67 money for a raw coin because the dealer says it's a 67. You can pay MS or BU if you feel it's exceptional.

One final comment ... you mentioned "rare" coins ... there are very few actual rare coins. Most of the "rare" coins you come across are in fact not rare at all but simply rarer than common. Keep that in mind when you're buying and pricing.

edit to add: Heritage does extremely high volume of US coin auctions, including not-so-rare coins, so that is why they are a common source for data. Basically a few steps above eBay.

Boosibri · July 23, 2014 4:53AM

While I think that using an outlier from past auctions to justify pricing is questionable, it would seem that general APRs are a more reliable resource for establishing market value than say the Greysheet which is completely useless in my opinion. Dealers have to use something and actual documented sales seem reasonable to me.

AMRC · July 23, 2014 4:54AM

Because it is a known, publicly available, market price.

410a · July 23, 2014 4:55AM

Lochness, thank you for the informative answer. Regards, Michael

I am thinking that "auctions" are different than the retail trade. I guess I see the connection and I am glad you point out "rare" and what is and isn't actually rare. Seems to me in the everyday trading of what amounts to collector coins an auction as sole barometer is skewed in many ways. Consignment, fees, payments, collectors over paying for a coin.
Again, Thank you.

LochNESS · July 23, 2014 4:56AM

If your neighbor asked you to mow her lawn, and you learned that she had recently hired your friend for $50, would you not try to get $50? It's more than reasonable. It's expected.

edit: the fees are separated from the auction results. I believe on heritage they show the hammer and then in parentheses (plus __% fees)

TommyType · July 23, 2014 4:58AM

All part of the bargaining....

I'm sure there are collectors who will selectively pick out auction results to do the same thing: "But one sold in the last Heritage auction for only $xxx."

In the end, you'll either agree on a price, or you won't. How you each got to that point is pretty much unimportant.

CuKevin · July 23, 2014 5:02AM

<< Heritage archive is a great source for recent pricing info.

Of course one must be comparing relatively similar coins. >>

This. Good answer MGLICKER.

What would you prefer dealers use to gauge the retail market?

BryceM · July 23, 2014 5:14AM

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but there are some subtleties that must be understood. Incredibly common coins, like a 1922 Peace Dollar in MS63 will normally trade in a narrow price band. A single monster toner crossing the auctions will stick out like a sore thumb, but it won't affect price guides. Rarely traded coins, like a condition rarity 1922 in MS67 will trade only infrequently, and with far greater variability in pricing. A really fantastic MS67 dollar will sell for more than one with ugly toning or visible issues. In this market you better be more cautious interpreting data and comparing coins. The sale of a single monster coin will sometimes cause a bump in the price guides that persists for several months. It may or may not have any bearing of the value of other similarly graded items.

LochNESS · July 23, 2014 5:16AM

The ANA seminar course on Coin Valuations teaches the use of auction prices as the primary gauge. I don't see this behavior changing, especially since the internet has made this data readily available the moment an auction ends. In the olden days, having a red book at your side was more convenient then finding a copy of the Wall Street Journal or Sotheby's monthly catalog. Those days are long gone.

PerryHall · July 23, 2014 5:25AM

What if the dealer`s coin is only so-so and the Heritage coin has wonderful rainbow toning? Is this comparing apples to oranges?

TommyType · July 23, 2014 5:31AM

<< What if the dealer`s coin is only so-so and the Heritage coin has wonderful rainbow toning? Is this comparing apples to oranges? >>

And he probably won't be selling too many coins....

I always get amused, or confused, (take your pick), when collectors try to tell dealers what they should price their coins at. Or alternately, when dealers try to tell collectors what they should pay for coins.

It's a market. Tactics and negotiation methods run the gamut from logical and well planned, to tossing darts. If you don't agree, walk away with a smile. If you do, then pay your money, and own your coin.

Most of the "bashing" threads seem to work under the assumption that one side is right, and the other is mentally challenged. I doubt either assumption is correct....in most cases.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 23, 2014 5:36AM

This is better than asking why coin collectors shop at walmart.

airplanenut · July 23, 2014 5:38AM

<< What if the dealer`s coin is only so-so and the Heritage coin has wonderful rainbow toning? Is this comparing apples to oranges? >>

Of course, but toning premiums are always a source of debate. Even if you know how much one or more beautifully toned examples sold for, unless the toning is all but identical, you still have to figure out how to value the toning on the coin in question. But when Heritage shows 5 recent sales of a normal coin at similar prices, that's a good indication of the value of that coin in normal condition. If they also have a toner or two, perhaps that can be used as a guide for the appropriate premium over the base value.

CoinZip · July 23, 2014 5:41AM

<< Hey Zip ! Answering a question with a question is not only sarcastic it's bad form. Sincerely, Michael >>

If I offended you, I apologize, it was not my intent.

I use Heritage for researching values for a lot of different items, I find Heritage to be one of the most useful sites for values of coins and other items.

I thought maybe you have a better reference and maybe you would be willing to share it with us.

DennisH · July 23, 2014 5:51AM

Cherrypicked auction results (which might have been influenced by toning, extraordinary eye appeal or quality, one specific grading firm, better financial times past, etc.) are examples of why previous results cited by a person who is trying to sell a coin should be taken as simply one value data point. Potential buyers of any coin bear the responsibility of informing themselves about other value data points (recent sales, similar quality and eye appeal, same TPG, etc.) before making any purchase.

PerryHall · July 23, 2014 5:58AM

<< Cherrypicked auction results (which might have been influenced by toning, extraordinary eye appeal or quality, one specific grading firm, better financial times past, etc.) are examples of why previous results cited by a person who is trying to sell a coin should be taken as simply one value data point. Potential buyers of any coin bear the responsibility of informing themselves about other value data points (recent sales, similar quality and eye appeal, same TPG, etc.) before making any purchase. >>

Bingo!!!

numisma · July 23, 2014 6:25AM

I have a 54" tv/computer monitor in my conference room. When someone is in to sell me a rare coin, I use the PCGS Auction Records as a starting point to establish the value. Many times we end up within the Heritage site, where I can isolate coin issues by grading service and grade. With a "bucket" of auction prices realized, the customer gets a feel for what the true value is.

The reason that I use Heritage APR on rare coins, or coins that do not trade often, is that I know that I can always send the coin to auction if I cannot sell it on a retail level. That is my safety net. If I can show 10 auctions within the past couple of years for a specific issue, then I can estimate the price that the coin will realize at auction. It is not a guaranteed strategy, but it works more often than not.

In the end, the customer sells the coin for a little less than he/she would get by consigning it to auction, and I have some room to work to resell the coin. In my mind it is a win-win scenario. Auctions prices are an excellent resource, and PCGS' archive found on this site is a wonderful tool for both dealers and collectors.

DDR · July 23, 2014 7:27AM

I recently priced a coin to sell to a fellow collector. When pricing the coin, I referred to two recent Heritage auction sales of similar items. It seemed reasonable to me, especially on an item that does not trade frequently.

nags · July 23, 2014 7:30AM

I asked awhile back for thoughts concerning retail vs. auction prices. The answers were varying. For me, I use auction results as a GENERAL guide for what I'll pay. Sometimes it is close and sometimes it is not. I don't get to walk the bourse floors so auction trends are basically what I have. Frankly, if I can get the items I want for typical auction prices I'm a happy camper.

I had a member offer me a pretty high end GSA dollar a while back that hadn't been offered in the specific grade for some time. I thought the asking price was a bit high based on the most recent auction results. I declined and I believe the coin sold at auction for more than it was offer for. I was flat out wrong in my valuation based strictly looking at auction results. Live and learn I guess...

OldIndianNutKase · July 23, 2014 7:36AM

<< Cherrypicked auction results (which might have been influenced by toning, extraordinary eye appeal or quality, one specific grading firm, better financial times past, etc.) are examples of why previous results cited by a person who is trying to sell a coin should be taken as simply one value data point. Potential buyers of any coin bear the responsibility of informing themselves about other value data points (recent sales, similar quality and eye appeal, same TPG, etc.) before making any purchase. >>

And, I will add, nothing prevents you from quoting a low ball comparable off auction results either.

OINK

DIMEMAN · July 23, 2014 7:44AM

They do the same thing when buying.

ms70 · July 23, 2014 7:51AM

A coin is only worth what someone will pay for it. Recent auction archives are the way to go.

Walkerguy21D · July 23, 2014 8:13AM

<< << Cherrypicked auction results (which might have been influenced by toning, extraordinary eye appeal or quality, one specific grading firm, better financial times past, etc.) are examples of why previous results cited by a person who is trying to sell a coin should be taken as simply one value data point. Potential buyers of any coin bear the responsibility of informing themselves about other value data points (recent sales, similar quality and eye appeal, same TPG, etc.) before making any purchase. >>

Bingo!!! >>

+1 - great answer, Dennis.
And frankly, unless a coin is very special or I really need it, I would use most of the Heritage auction price results as the 'high water mark', and I would want to be under that.

TommyType · July 23, 2014 8:34AM

<< +1 - great answer, Dennis.
And frankly, unless a coin is very special or I really need it, I would use most of the Heritage auction price results as the 'high water mark', and I would want to be under that. >>

Logically, it shouldn't be the case that auction prices tend to be high end prices....

But considering how often I get out-bid in auctions, I can't help but agree. (And I'm talking common coins and common grades, for my experience).

A wee bit of the "Auction Fever" influence?

NeoStar · July 23, 2014 8:56AM

"Well, in the world coin market, there are no PCGS price guides and no "grey sheet" or "blue sheet" so we look at auction prices."

This is so true. If I approached a dealer about a coin and he quoted prices realized recently in Heritage, I would be grateful for it. After all, that is exactly where I would go next to check; so, if he does it for me, he saves me the hassle. I like it better when the dealer uses more than one example. In my area of collecting, the same coin that sells for $2,500 in April at auction (Heritage), sells for $1,600 in September (Heritage). This is talking about the same coin in the same grade and condition (toning, luster or otherwise).

Now, on the other hand, if the dealer was using the price realized for a specific coin with spectacular circumstances (such as toning, luster or otherwise) as the price point for his coin and said coin was not up to par, I would make sure to point that out. But then again, if the coin in hand was that bad, I probably wouldn't be talking to the dealer about it in first place. Me thinks.

crazyhounddog · July 23, 2014 9:28AM

<< Heritage archive is a great source for recent pricing info.

Of course one must be comparing relatively similar coins. >>

I 100% agree with that statement!!

telephoto1 · July 23, 2014 9:39AM

Too many people take it personally when they can't buy something at their price. Last time I checked, you aren't obligated to pay $X, and the seller isn't obligated to sell at $Y. Either find a happy medium at $Z or move on to the next deal.

AnkurJ · July 23, 2014 9:44AM

I would love to pay auction results for PQ coins. Often time the coins are priced above previous sales!

Musky1011 · July 23, 2014 10:09AM

If you like it buy it.. If you do not like the price.. Bargain.. If no bargaining allowed just walk away

TONEDDOLLARS · July 23, 2014 10:15AM

I use auction results along with coin facts to Gage where I want to be at with my offers for coins. Toning is a whole mother subject.

Shortgapbob · July 23, 2014 10:29AM

Quite honestly, using auction prices realized can be the cheapest price indicator for ordinary coins. A lot of "stuff" slips through the cracks at large auctions and sells for less than all other pricing guides, including Greysheet.

There are a number of dealers who buy the cheap "stuff" out of auctions for inventory.

amwldcoin · July 23, 2014 10:32AM

<< Quite honestly, using auction prices realized can be the cheapest price indicator for ordinary coins. A lot of "stuff" slips through the cracks at large auctions and sells for less than all other pricing guides, including Greysheet.

There are a number of dealers who buy the cheap "stuff" out of auctions for inventory. >>

I was waiting for someone to say this so I could...

lostincoins · July 23, 2014 10:33AM

I view auction results from many locations like Heritage, DLRC, ebay, SB and more as those are the prices being realized. Being that these are the prices realized, that is what I consider to be retail as that is what I am willing to pay in most cases. "Retail" pricing as listed in most cases is higher than what I view to be a price I would pay ( unless I really want the coin then the price is not a concern). Auction pricing is used in other markets as well like, used vehicles, sports cards, antiques, paintings from known artists and rare memorabilia etc... If you did not have a reference point for what is an amount willing to be paid how would you determine your starting or firm asking price?

telephoto1 · July 24, 2014 2:33AM

<< Quite honestly, using auction prices realized can be the cheapest price indicator for ordinary coins. A lot of "stuff" slips through the cracks at large auctions and sells for less than all other pricing guides, including Greysheet.

There are a number of dealers who buy the cheap "stuff" out of auctions for inventory. >>

I'd like to know where all the below-sheet auctions are. I invariably find the ones where everything I want goes for moon money.
One problem I deal with at local estate auctions that happen to have coins in them... some of the local regulars who irregularly buy coins know who I am and what I do for a living, so whenever my hand goes up, 5 other hands go up. Even if they don't know what it's worth, they figure it has to be good if I'm bidding. Some have come over and actually gloated after the fact... "You got beat on that one!". I occasionally use that to my advantage-particularly with certain obnoxious people who magically always tend to end up "beating me" on things I don't really want... :wink; so when the thing I'm actually interested in comes around, they've shot a lot of their bankroll.

Type2 · July 24, 2014 3:36AM

When they are buying from you they will look it up in the gray sheet but when selling you bet they will look in all areas for the highest price it's just the way it is..

LindeDad · July 24, 2014 3:43AM

Every since the Ohama Bank Hoard hit the street I really try to look elsewhere. Suddening joined the crowd and not the POP report.

PerryHall · July 24, 2014 4:16AM

PerryHall · July 24, 2014 4:20AM

<< When they are buying from you they will look it up in the gray sheet but when selling you bet they will look in all areas for the highest price it's just the way it is..

>>

A few will use the blue sheets.

BillJones · July 24, 2014 4:34AM

<< 

<< When they are buying from you they will look it up in the gray sheet but when selling you bet they will look in all areas for the highest price it's just the way it is..

>>

A few will use the blue sheets.

>>

When I was dealer, I came to the conclusion that the Blue Sheet was a waste of money. Nobody sold much of anything that was decent at those prices.

I now understand that there is a CAC column on the Blue Sheet for generic coins. I have not seen it.

LochNESS · July 24, 2014 11:06AM

<< I now understand that there is a CAC column on the Blue Sheet for generic coins... >>

um, isn't that an oxymoron? You can't use "CAC" and "generic coins" in the same cent-ence

What's with dealers refering to Heritage auction results

Comments

Leave a Comment