Rattler holders

Cacoinguy · July 21, 2014 12:58AM

Hey there everyone- I am a long time reader of the boards and first time poster so bare with me.

I know a lot of people believe most coins still in rattler holders have been looked over for possible upgrades but this does not apply to this post.

I recently purchased a collection from a gentleman who collected in the late eighties and was lucky enough to acquire a few of the rattler slabs that he had graded back then. These coins have not been on the market since before he acquired them around that time- he stopped collecting around 1994.

My question is - is it common for old rattler slabs to upgrade multiple points? Is it best to crack them and submit them or send in for reconsideration ? Lastly - one of the coins is a barber quarter that is extremely original with booming luster but has a not to eye appealing luster to it- probably appealing to many folks because of its originality but in my opinion hides most the luster - is it easier to upgrade a coin like this after a quick dip? Any help is appreciated thanks for taking the time to read my post

Boosibri · July 21, 2014 1:07AM

Few thoughts...

1) Post pictures here if you want the best advice on your coins.

2) Fresh coins sell for strong money. Id generally suggest leaving them alone.

3) Unless you are experienced, I would suggest not dipping these coins. Generally speaking, IF these coins require conservation i'd suggest PCGS do it.

blu62vette · July 21, 2014 1:09AM

Common to go up multiple points, no.

Look at the PCGS reconsideration service instead of cracking.

shorecoll · July 21, 2014 1:11AM

You can send it to PCGS for their opinion on dipping. FYI, most of their graders CAN see the luster through the toning, so there is potentially more downside to dipping than not. That said, it would be better if you posted pictures and more people will chime in.

TPRC · July 21, 2014 1:21AM

I recently did this on a set of rattlers and early generation pieces on behalf of a dealer friend. My view it that it depends and someone knowledgeable could best advise you. Certainly, I would not just crack out any of them. My coin dealer friend did this to one of his coins mentioned in an earlier post and the results were disappointing. Multiple point upgrades are not impossible, but they are also very very unusual. To me, a CAC gold sticker on a rattler is probably worth more than one point up on a new PCGS slab, and it is cheaper, but even that depends. If a coin does not gold sticker (and only about 3-4 % do, I think), then one wonders whether a green sticker on a rattler affects the price negatively, in that someone has opined, at least tacitly, that it is not or may not be worthy of an upgrade. In addition, if the coin is CAM or DCAM, these coins may have been slabbed before that service was in place, and the value difference alone may justify reconsideration at PCGS.

So, it depends. And having gone through this recently, my general view is that you have the luxury of relaxing and of not having to do anything until you are good and ready and until you get some good advice on the subject from an expert or two who can look at the cons in person and provide an honest evaluation.

nwcoast · July 21, 2014 1:58AM

to the forum

mbogoman · July 21, 2014 1:58AM

<< Hey there everyone- I am a long time reader of the boards and first time poster so bare with me. >>

I go bare with my wife and nobody else. I couldn't bear the embarrassment!

19Lyds · July 21, 2014 2:11AM

<< Hey there everyone- I am a long time reader of the boards and first time poster so bare with me.

I know a lot of people believe most coins still in rattler holders have been looked over for possible upgrades but this does not apply to this post.

I recently purchased a collection from a gentleman who collected in the late eighties and was lucky enough to acquire a few of the rattler slabs that he had graded back then. These coins have not been on the market since before he acquired them around that time- he stopped collecting around 1994.

My question is - is it common for old rattler slabs to upgrade multiple points? Is it best to crack them and submit them or send in for reconsideration ? Lastly - one of the coins is a barber quarter that is extremely original with booming luster but has a not to eye appealing luster to it- probably appealing to many folks because of its originality but in my opinion hides most the luster - is it easier to upgrade a coin like this after a quick dip? Any help is appreciated thanks for taking the time to read my post >>

Since you stated the he had them graded back then, was this gentleman a Coin Dealer?

Cacoinguy · July 21, 2014 2:34AM

Thank you everyone for your replies , I will post a photo this afternoon when I get home- I don't know of by cac dealers in my area but would like to submit a few coins actually. The gentleman I bought the coins from was not a dealer but a collector- when I post the photos I won't immediately post the grade - that way we can get some opinions from the experts around the boards- thank you for the warm welcome as well - being a young collector , under 30 it's nice to learn from some of the more experienced people around here.

MsMorrisine · July 21, 2014 3:14AM

posting pictures

roadrunner · July 21, 2014 4:43AM

I wouldn't even send them to CAC until you got them looked at by another experienced party. Green stickers on your rattlers would probably devalue them....and would certainly limit their market potential.

The TPG's were brutal on hairlines or a stray mark in a focal area back then. Coins that otherwise have exceptional blast and eye appeal can easily upgrade 1-2 points today. Overall, I'd say the odds are <50-50 of an
specific coin upgrading, though the odds depend on the series and the grade. It's far easier for a MS63 Morgan 81-s rattler to upgrade to a 64 today. And that's not even worth the trouble of the regrade. Don't be in a
hurry to do anything with them except to slowly get some other opinions on them. They will always be in rattlers and be desirable because of that. A trip to CAC makes them less fresh...and less marketable imo.

Post a pic of the Barber quarter. Sounds like you should leave it alone. If it is original with booming luster under the toning that's all you need. Don't assume that because you like blast white coins that no one likes them toned.
If the guy you bought them from was smart he would have upgraded his no brainer PQ coins along the way (or got them gold stickered). It's possible what he's left with are coins he figured would never upgrade. And unless
this guy is your uncle, you really don't know when he stopped collecting (1994 or 2004?). Some of those rattlers could have been purchased in recent times. Usually the proof is in the pudding though. Coins put away >20 years
ago by someone who knew what they were doing will tend to look "fresh" and unpicked. Hopefully, you didn't run into someone who didn't know what they were doing and got the rattler dregs on the cheap from local dealers.

steveben · July 21, 2014 5:09AM

cracking rattlers and dipping them! ack!! please don't.

while it is true that collectors want the nicest condition coins possible, that doesn't always translate into a higher grade. most prefer a more original piece over a higher grade dipped piece any day.

but, then again, it all depends on the collector base for the coins in question and the eye appeal. there are some original pieces that would be better with a dip, but that's a professional judgement call.

if you post photos, you'll get good advice.

good luck!

SeattleSlammer · July 21, 2014 6:09AM

I'd say the MAJORITY of coins CURRENTLY in rattler slabs WON'T upgrade.

19Lyds · July 21, 2014 6:16AM

<< Thank you everyone for your replies , I will post a photo this afternoon when I get home- I don't know of by cac dealers in my area but would like to submit a few coins actually. The gentleman I bought the coins from was not a dealer but a collector- when I post the photos I won't immediately post the grade - that way we can get some opinions from the experts around the boards- thank you for the warm welcome as well - being a young collector , under 30 it's nice to learn from some of the more experienced people around here. >>

Well, if he wasn't a dealer then he submitted the coins "through" a dealer as individual collector coin submissions didn't come about until early 2002.

So if he says "He submitted them", find out "who" he submitted them through. That way you'll know whether or not your seller is feeding you a line.

Cacoinguy · July 21, 2014 6:37AM

I'm having a terribly hard time posting photos from my phone - would anyone be willing to let me email them for help? I'd like for everyone to see the coin

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · July 21, 2014 7:01AM

<< I'm having a terribly hard time posting photos from my phone - would anyone be willing to let me email them for help? I'd like for everyone to see the coin >>

turn your PM setting on so I can send you my email via Private Message and I will help you out and post them…

Erik

Cacoinguy · July 21, 2014 7:55AM

Pm on thanks so much

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · July 21, 2014 8:00AM

PM sent

Erik

Elcontador · July 21, 2014 8:04AM

In no particular order:
1) Most rattlers have been picked over. The nicest have already upgraded. If you are sure the coin has not been evaluated in the last 20 years, this
may not apply.
2) Most coins that remain in rattlers are there for a reason. Many coins in rattlers were technically graded and don't have today's standards for eye appeal (especially for gem coins). This would apply to coins with satin luster with pristine surfaces, and with coins whose toning mutes their original mint luster (I have one of the latter).
3) A big plus about coins in rattlers is that you know they haven't been doctored in quite some time, and you don't have to worry about them turning in holder, developing active PVC, etc. This is a big deal when it comes to rare, Draped Bust copper, for example. For this reason, some coins in rattler holders are worth a premium.

Unless you have an obviously technically graded coin without today's standard for eye-appeal, per item 3), think hard before ditching the rattler. Get someone who is very knowledgeable about Barber Quarters and have him / her look at the coin. If you get a thumbs up, consider sending the coin in for reconsideration - ie., if it doesn't upgrade, it stays in its present holder. And before sending it in, if the spread between its current grade and the next one up is not significant, I personally would not send it in (like Roadrunner's comment re an 1881 S Morgan going from MS 63 to MS 64).

To sum it up, it's complicated. Proceed with caution.

coinbuf · July 21, 2014 8:07AM

I would really read what roadrunner posted, lots of good points in his reply. And of course the best option may depend on if you intend to keep the coins or sell the coins.

crypto79 · July 21, 2014 8:39AM

Roadrunner is correct about some of the bulk grades on silver dollars. Rattlers were around during the beginning and a prolific period of silver dollar sales where lots of original bags and rolls were sent straight to grading. Because of this, I almost consider there to be two types of rattlers; silver dollars (Morgan & Peace) and everything else. The everything else category has been heavily picked over and the gems left are typically left on purpose save for the less and less common stuff that is recently out of hiding.

On the common but collectible silver dollar front there are thousands of under graded original coins in the holders but due to the prolific nature of the bags and the condition of being stored in a bag, they remain due mostly to price compression in the lower UNC grades. Here is an example of a nice rattler in my collection that looks pretty original and very solid for the 63 grade.

Cacoinguy · July 21, 2014 8:55AM

Thank you so much for all your help I truly appreciate you taking the time to give explanations and insight pics on the way

CuKevin · July 21, 2014 8:58AM

Here is picture 1 from the OP:

19Lyds · July 21, 2014 9:10AM

<< Here is picture 1 from the OP:

>>

And the grade is?????

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · July 21, 2014 9:12AM

I think OP wanted us to guess the grade but with the photo at hand, it may be necessary to be informed of the grade so we can imagine what it actually looks like

Erik

MsMorrisine · July 21, 2014 9:43AM

Reverse photo?

crypto79 · July 21, 2014 9:44AM

Ms63

CuKevin · July 21, 2014 10:18AM

More photos from the OP, the slab looks like MS63.

Cacoinguy · July 21, 2014 10:34AM

Thank you for your help posting photos - I know the pics are completely terrible

Ms63 rattler

originalisbest · July 21, 2014 10:44AM

No need to apologize for the pic, it gives a general idea.

My take on that particular Barber is that it does probably suffer from negative eye appeal with its tone; however, to crack and dip it would result in something roughly the same, or worse.

If it were mine and I wished to sell, I'd try and offer it up just as is, per El Contador and roadrunner's thoughts above.

Cacoinguy · July 21, 2014 11:12AM

I read a couple posters believed that this coin with a green bean would be less valuable then without it? Would it be wrong to try for the gold bean and if it gets green just simply remove it? Is that any differnt then cracking out and resubmitting the same coin multiple times?

MsMorrisine · July 21, 2014 11:26AM

Those photos are too dark for a good guess the grade

coinbuf · July 21, 2014 12:05PM

<< I read a couple posters believed that this coin with a green bean would be less valuable then without it? Would it be wrong to try for the gold bean and if it gets green just simply remove it? Is that any differnt then cracking out and resubmitting the same coin multiple times? >>

Yes you can do that, but if it passes and gets a green bean anyone that searches their database will see that this coin passed but not exceeded. Most would'nt check but some might. Hard to say for sure but I have to agree with others that leaving it as is would be the best way to go.

amwldcoin · July 21, 2014 12:24PM

OUCH! Those pictures hurt my eyes!

That said I have a feeling that coin is probably much nicer than your picture suggests. Most early graded barber material is conservatively graded compared to todays standards.

stman · July 21, 2014 12:32PM

Send for upgrade, wait don't you lose the rattler. OK, send to CAC, no wait..... if it only receives a green thing you lose the illusion of a gold thing. If you send for upgrade and it does, you lose the illusion of an undergraded coin. OY VEY my head hurts. The L with the coin it means nothing these days to many/most. around here anyway from what I keep reading. Gotta create the illusion of the higher numbers is what it's all about these days.

Rattler holders

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