New Draconian Anti-Collector Law Takes Effect in Minnesota
BillJones
Posts: 34,554 ✭✭✭✭✭
The new Minnesota law that in effect ends the hobby in that state has taken effect. This is an example of big government totally run amok. This effect does not just effect Minnesota based dealers and those out of state dealers who come to Minnesota shows. It effects collectors because if you deal with out of state dealer that requires that dealer to register in the state. In other words, if you are a Minnesota coin collector your options for adding coins to your collection are now severely limited because very few out of state dealers will want to do business with you. It will be just too expensive.
Here is a link to a Numismatic News article that explains what the chilling effects of this foolish piece of legislation.
Numismatic News Article.
Here is a link to a Numismatic News article that explains what the chilling effects of this foolish piece of legislation.
Numismatic News Article.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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<< <i>This is an example of big government totally run amok >>
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>I'd be more than happy to sell a few coins to some fellow Gophers! >>
Then you might become the first "canary in the mine" when and if the Minnesota authorities start prosecuting dealers under this new law. In the words of an off-Broadway play from many years ago, "Your arms might be too short to box with god."
Minnesota "Bullion Coin Dealer" Law
MN Coin Dealer Law- July 1, 2014 NN Article
edited to fix link
njcc
<< <i>So how is Minnesota going to enforce their law on dealers who are out of state and never set foot in their state? Be interesting to see eBay's approach to this! >>
If you are selling material on eBay, which can you do? It is possible to reject all bids from Minnesota residents?
You have to really feel sorry for top notch dealers like Gary Adkins who is based in Minnesota.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>So how is Minnesota going to enforce their law on dealers who are out of state and never set foot in their state? Be interesting to see eBay's approach to this! >>
If you are selling material on eBay, which can you do? It is possible to reject all bids from Minnesota residents? >>
I say come on down here you Min. BH greedy Politicians and see if you can make it up my long...long...long uphill driveway with you in my sites from the minute you start up the hill!
LOL, I still remember a tale of an East Coast Dealer who was visited by the California tax collectors. He met them at the door but naked screaming and threatening. They hauled ass and were never seen again!
<< <i>You can't just blame the government, they were elected by someone and those are the people with the ultimate responsibility. >>
Can't blame the government? PLEASE !!!
I'm not so sure the voters have much say any more. I think that voter fraud so rampant that the honest citizen who only votes once does not have much say any more. You need an ID to rent a car, a hotel room or get medical care. I even had to show an ID to buy a Coke at a discount price with my annual pass at Walt Disney World!
Yet one does not need an ID to vote in some states. It really makes it easier for the citizens in the cemeteries to register their opinions.
<< <i>This is an example of big government totally run amok. >>
I agree. Time for the people to stand up and shrink government starting at the Federal and State levels.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
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<< <i>Once someone is elected it is very hard to remove them from that post even if they completely change how they operate. Just try to remove someone from office and then blame the voters. >>
I know. I walked the neighborhoods with teams of volunteers here a Florida in the last national election. Most people have no idea what is going on in this country and are disinterested in fixing any of the problems.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Does the U. S. Mint have to comply with that law? >>
Hehe, the government comply with laws they pass, that's a good one. Or the alternative is they hire a team of 20 people to be compliant while at the same time arguing that the impact is small compared to the "service" the new law is providing to citizens.
<< <i>Is this law even enforceable? If someone in Minnesota buys a coin from an out of state dealer, will the state of Minnesota even know about it. I predict this law will be widely ignored. >>
That is my prediction. It's a burden on those that choose to comply but the ability of the state to enforce it will be difficult putting those who comply at a disadvantage.
Total Entities Registered: 40 (excluding aliases)
Minnesota Entities Registered: 38
Entities Registered From Other States: 2; one located in New Hampshire and one located in Louisiana
I know there are other MN dealers, as well as some out-of-state dealers, in the process of registering.
I've also seen ebay sellers and dealer website with terms that include at least certain sales to Minnesota residents (e.g., no retail sales of coins containing gold, sliver, platinum or palladium to Minnesota residents, gold coin listings that state no sales to Minnesota residents- they appear to even exclude sales to Minnesota dealers that are properly registered as Minnesota Bullion Coin Dealers).
It looks like "Big Brother" really wants to take care of you.
Could see signs like this at the ANA and FUN shows?
"We are sorry, but we cannot sell coins to residents of Minnesota."
<< <i>Now, ebay auctions will state: No overseas or Minnesotan bidders. >>
I think they should, as a protest, however, doing a light skim of the article, the gist of it appears to be if a dealer exceeds $5000 worth of business TO MINNESOTA residents (anything with precious metals counts...including any coin....so, as the article states, if you sell a $1 gold piece for over $5000, you automatically "qualify") in the last 12 month period then they must comply.
I would say, for the ebay side of the house, one would have to try to qualify the seller as a 'dealer'. May not be that easy. Many are just collectors selling their dupes/etc.
Then, the amount of $5000 to residents of MN in the last 12mo period.
The amount of ebay sellers getting hit by it would narrow quickly, I believe, given the above 2 bits.
That said, if it were me, I would be cautious and would either be very careful with my counting or would flat out do the "No sales to MN bidders due to draconian law" bit.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
What is the penalty if one does not comply?
Jade Rare Coin eBay Listings
<< <i>
<< <i>Now, ebay auctions will state: No overseas or Minnesotan bidders. >>
I think they should, as a protest, however, doing a light skim of the article, the gist of it appears to be if a dealer exceeds $5000 worth of business TO MINNESOTA residents (anything with precious metals counts...including any coin....so, as the article states, if you sell a $1 gold piece for over $5000, you automatically "qualify") in the last 12 month period then they must comply.
I would say, for the ebay side of the house, one would have to try to qualify the seller as a 'dealer'. May not be that easy. Many are just collectors selling their dupes/etc.
Then, the amount of $5000 to residents of MN in the last 12mo period.
The amount of ebay sellers getting hit by it would narrow quickly, I believe, given the above 2 bits.
That said, if it were me, I would be cautious and would either be very careful with my counting or would flat out do the "No sales to MN bidders due to draconian law" bit. >>
Even if you banned sales to Minnesotonians on eBay, how would you know the bidder is from Minnesota while the auction is still ongoing?
I suspect that there is likely an attorney that would really enjoy the challenge of exposing this law for the sham that it is...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The ones who advertise that their tribute buffaloes are normally sold at the National Collectors Mint (small print next to this will say "in no way affiliated with the national government or the US Mint") for $50 apiece. However, during this limited time offer you can get get your tribute pieces for a mere $9.99, plus shipping, processing, packaging and handing ($9.99 per coin for each of those items - shipping, processing, packaging and handling). Limit for this limited time offer is 5 tribute pieces per household. Don't delay. If you are unsatisfied for any reason, just return the coin unopened, and we will refund the purchase price, you just pay shipping, processing, packaging and handling, and a 15% restocking fee. Additionally, you will be sent a National Collectors Mint item each month for inspection. If you do not like the items, just return it within our reasonable inspection period (5 hours). Unreturned items will be charged to your credit card, plus shipping, processing, packaging and handling.
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<< <i>A quote from the law, "This threshold is also met if a Minnesota consumer makes a sale or purchase with a non-Minnesota dealer at a coin show located outside of Minnesota."
It looks like "Big Brother" really wants to take care of you.
Could see signs like this at the ANA and FUN shows?
"We are sorry, but we cannot sell coins to residents of Minnesota." >>
I saw that too.
That line seems to me, to be completely unenforceable and perhaps un-Constitutional. By that wording, if a Minnesota resident goes to FUN, Baltimore, Long Beach, or any other national coin show, no dealer there would be able to sell them any high-value coins unless they were registered with the state of MN. Basically, all coin dealers would have to ask every single customer if they are a Minnesota resident. Also, what happens if the buyer simply lies and says they aren't from Minnesota? Will every singly coin dealer in the country now have to check driver's licences of every customer to determine where they are from, just because some MN state idiot got a wild hair up his butt?
Laws are based on jurisdiction. Simply stated, a crime is only a crime if the location of the action is within the jurisdiction of the law-passing entity. Minnesota cannot make laws that cover areas outside their jurisdiction.....the state border.
It would be like citing someone for speeding when they were going 65 miles an hour across the border in Wisconsin, in a 65 MPH zone, simply because the maximum speed limit in MN was 55 MPH. It doesn't work that way!
Steve
<< <i>Is this law even enforceable? If someone in Minnesota buys a coin from an out of state dealer, will the state of Minnesota even know about it. I predict this law will be widely ignored. >>
Here is my post copied from ATS:
The law could only apply to transactions executed within the State of Minnesota, mail/wire orders involving Minnesota residents, and perhaps Minnesota dealers. The law would have no operation on an out of state dealer who conducts an out of state transaction with a Minnesota resident and Minnesota courts would lack in personam jurisdiction over the dealer. The Supreme Court of the United States has been clear, since its International Shoe v. Washington decision, that in order to obtain in personam jurisdiction over a defendant, there must be certain minimum contacts with that state. This is why the mail order and internet transactions would be subject to the long arm statutes while purely out of state transactions would not. If the Minnesota statute had the ability and meaning that you and the others have attributed to it, it would be a violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment per International Shoe .
I think that is a quote from the NN article, not the law itself.
What is the penalty if one does not comply?
On the criminal side it is a misdemeanor. On civil side it takes a bit more reading to figure out.
I would say, for the ebay side of the house, one would have to try to qualify the seller as a 'dealer'. May not be that easy. Many are just collectors selling their dupes/etc.
The "dealer" is defined in the law, although it may not jump out at the reader. One of the difficulties in understanding this law is that some terms are different than the typically understanding or usage in the coin collecting/dealing community. The Department of Commerce interpretation may be clearer: Link
edited to add: The trouble is those you who say this law will not hold up in court are forgetting the legal fees and time that are involved to challenge it.
This does make this more difficult and frustrating.
Bajjer and I are going to have to open a coin and bullion stand just south of the border. Kinda like what Mizzou does with fireworks.
My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452
1. It will kill the coin business in MN.
2. Which large companies have nexus in MN? Amazon - certainly. eBay - don't know. etc. But those are the people with deep enough pockets to fight this stupid thing.
Funny thing - if they had defined bullion coin as 0.999+ fine, most of us would be singing praises that somebody was finally cleaning up the scammers...
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Now, ebay auctions will state: No overseas or Minnesotan bidders. >>
I think they should, as a protest, however, doing a light skim of the article, the gist of it appears to be if a dealer exceeds $5000 worth of business TO MINNESOTA residents (anything with precious metals counts...including any coin....so, as the article states, if you sell a $1 gold piece for over $5000, you automatically "qualify") in the last 12 month period then they must comply.
I would say, for the ebay side of the house, one would have to try to qualify the seller as a 'dealer'. May not be that easy. Many are just collectors selling their dupes/etc.
Then, the amount of $5000 to residents of MN in the last 12mo period.
The amount of ebay sellers getting hit by it would narrow quickly, I believe, given the above 2 bits.
That said, if it were me, I would be cautious and would either be very careful with my counting or would flat out do the "No sales to MN bidders due to draconian law" bit. >>
Even if you banned sales to Minnesotonians on eBay, how would you know the bidder is from Minnesota while the auction is still ongoing? >>
Don't know other than after the fact, and, to be honest, even if I were selling on ebay at my previous levels, the impact wouldn't matter....but I would still put it in the listing to try to get others to step up and complain to their politicians....and also to try to make sure to prevent similar elsewhere.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>The trouble is those you who say this law will not hold up in court are forgetting the legal fees and time that are involved to challenge it. This is precisely why bad laws are so bad. The legal system can't do away with them quickly or cheaply. >>
This sounds like something the ICTA would be concerned with.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Last year the Minnesota legislature and governor, in response to what were considered a large number of incidents of coin dealers taking advantage of customers in that state, enacted what was supposed to be a consumer protection solution. >>
Given that this was enacted to prevent customers from being taken advantage of by dealers, should this be considered a pro-collector and anti-bad dealer law?
<< <i>In Minnesota, the state attorney general's office is investigating a half dozen local and national firms. "This industry is somewhat like the Wild West," spokesman Ben Wogsland said.
Mass telemarketing of coins began in the Twin Cities in the mid-1970s, and the metro area is a hub of what has become a multibillion-dollar industry, with about 30 Minnesota firms pitching to an estimated half million serious collectors and investors nationwide.
[...]
The Federal Trade Commission lumps coin complaints in with other art, gems and precious metals. That tally suggests a growing problem with Minnesota firms, with 19 complaints last year compared with an average of five in prior years. Last year, only California and Texas had more. >>
$335,000 Loss:
<< <i>In three decades of investing in gold and silver, Dean Dellinger amassed nearly 27 pounds of coins.
His collection might have been worth more than $645,000 at current prices -- if he still had it. Instead, the 88-year-old Florida resident says his devotion to hard currencies made him an easy mark for a Minneapolis pitchman who cold-called and persuaded him to trade for a class of historic coins called "numismatics." Dellinger alleges in a federal lawsuit that he lost more than $335,000 on a series of swaps. "The guy just skinned me," he said. >>
$187,500 Loss:
<< <i>Adkins recalled examining some coins for an elderly Minnesota woman who took $250,000 from her savings and borrowed more to buy coins from a New Jersey dealer. The coins were worth about a quarter of what she paid, he said. "I hear these kinds of horror stories all the time." >>
$160,000 in Losses:
<< <i>Dellinger made his trade for the numismatics with Martin Klevens, a salesman who called from the Minneapolis firm International Rarities. He remembers Klevens as a smooth talker with a preacher's knack for instilling trust.
He didn't know that Klevens -- known as "Party Marty" by some former associates -- had been sentenced in 1997 to 25 months in federal prison after admitting to defrauding at least four coin buyers out of more than $160,000. >>
Gold Loss:
<< <i>The limitations on private gold ownership were lifted in 1975. But many coin firms foment fear of another "confiscation" as they pressure consumers to buy historic or commemorative coins.
Esther Lass, 84, of Grand Haven, Mich., said that was the pitch she heard from Michael Duff McNamara III, then with International Rarities. Lass said he convinced her that the government might seize her gold and that she should send it to him so he could swap it for collectible coins.
"I did, and that's the last I ever heard of him," Lass said. >>
$65,800 Loss:
<< <i>Keith filed a lawsuit last month against Barber Coin, its president, Leonard Barber Jr., vice president of sales Robert Boyd and McNamara alleging that they cheated her father, a vulnerable adult, out of at least $65,768. The newspaper agreed not to name her father, who has a different surname, because he has cognitive impairments. >>
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I have a considerable paper loss on a "blue chip" coin, a 1795 $10 gold piece in PCGS AU-53. I bought the coin in 2008, and now it has lost about a third of its value. Why? The market crashed on it. Who is to blame? Me. I bought it from a reputable dealer, and the value is no longer there.
BTW does Minnesota have a state lottery? If so I dare say that the vast majority of people who have "invested" in it have lost money. If they have ads like the state officials do here in Florida, there are enticements of potentially great winnings in the sales pitches. That is probably not great deal different from the sale pitches "International Rarities" has used.
The scope of the law is far broader than problenm said to be targeted by the law. Those heading the passage of the law did not seem that interested in understanding the industry and carefully passing a law to address the targeted problem without unduly impacting others that had nothing to do with the problem, as well as the impact on consumers that arguable in some aspects are more harmed than helped under the law.
while the Law on its face may be heavy handed and over-the-top it was apparently first acted upon because of bad dealers. shouldn't the bulk of the anger be against those sour apples and Telemarketer firms FIRST and then the legislators??
As noted above, those heading the passage of the law did not seem that interested in understanding the industry and carefully passing a law to address the targeted problem without unduly impacting others that had nothing to do with the problem, as well as the impact on consumers that arguable in some aspects are more harmed than helped uner the law. I tried several times to engage in the process and was met by a lack of interest in any input save for my State Reps office. That rep voted no on this.
in MN. The way I see it, it's completely unenforceable for out of state dealers and there's nothing they can do about it other than try to scare dealers & customers into compliance.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
You must provide in writing to consumers (in a clear and conspicuous manner) the sale or purchase price and the precious metal content, if known, of the bullion coin.
If you do not know the precious metal content of the bullion coin, then you must indicate in writing that the precious metal content is not known and the purchase or sale price is not based on the precious metal content of the bullion coin.
You must provide this written notice to consumers prior to the bullion coin transaction or concurrent with the delivery of the bullion coin to the consumer. You must retain a copy of the written notice.
You must also prepare a written invoice for each bullion coin transaction and provide a copy of the invoice to the consumer at the time of the transaction. You must also retain a copy the written invoice.
The written invoice must include the following information:
Information that specifically identifies and describes the bullion coin being purchased or sold.
The quantity of bullion coin being purchased or sold.
The bullion coin’s sale or purchase price.
The bullion coin’s precious metal content, if known.
The registration identification numbers issued to you by the Department of Commerce.
Seems like a lot of nonsense for the sale of any coin that includes even a trace of gold and silver.
Dennis
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<< <i>Isn't a certain company that runs full page advertisements in well known non-numismatic publications and sells a lot of coins and currency lots at well over retail price to people who are uninformed and don't bother to read the fine print and think they're purchasing from a, ahem, government mint in Minnesota?
What is the penalty if one does not comply? >>
You hit the nail on the head here. I'm not sure the exact company you are talking about since there are actually two different Minnesota companies that fit your description. One of them is located within two blocks of the Minnesota House district of one of the authors of the Bill. The President of the other company, testified in favor of the law at a Minnesota House committee, he actually said he helped the Minnesota Attorney General write the law. The testimony is available on-line at the MN House website, PM me if you want the link.
The secret of this legislation is that while it was written under the guise of consumer protection, its real goal was to protect the business of two in-state companies with questionable records within the Numismatic industry. There is a lot more to this Minnesota Law then what meets the eye, and it should be interesting to follow when everything comes out.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.