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MS-69 vs MS-70 Modern question.......
ArizonaJack
Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭
So, sitting here staring at a West Point sealed monster box of 500 2014 ASE's........
IF these were bulk submitted to PCGS, what is the ratio of 70's needed to recoup grading costs?
This is totally out of my comfort zone as a collector, but got to wondering.......is this a money maker / a bad idea / or I just need to get a life and stop considering such stupid things as slabbing moderns?
Thanks folks
IF these were bulk submitted to PCGS, what is the ratio of 70's needed to recoup grading costs?
This is totally out of my comfort zone as a collector, but got to wondering.......is this a money maker / a bad idea / or I just need to get a life and stop considering such stupid things as slabbing moderns?
Thanks folks
" YOU SUCK " Awarded 5/18/08
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Comments
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>how much does a 70 add to value? Maybe someone who does this regularly can give us a ratio. Mr. Maben may be able to offer some insight. >>
Exactly. I do not mean to condesend on moderns, but I just do. When looking thru a roll, it dawned on me how beautiful these coins are. I guess that moderns have kept many a father/son or a family coin night collecting, which is fantastic for the hobby.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>how much does a 70 add to value? Maybe someone who does this regularly can give us a ratio. Mr. Maben may be able to offer some insight. >>
If you happen to have a nice box you would likely end up with quite a few 70's. That's only half the battle though, selling them at a profit after grading fees is the hard part. What typically happens is you can make about $10 a coin profit early in the year on 70's if you have an outlet to sell them. However, by March or even earlier as supply increases the price typically drops and before you know it you can buy the coins already certified for less than you could make them yourself even if you bought the raw coins at the lowest possible price. For example, you can buy these right now on ebay for $44.95 with free shipping. If you searched hard enough, you would find them for even less off ebay if you were willing to buy in quantity.
I personally would not slab the most common silver eagles without a retail outlet to sell them, unless I was just doing it for fun in a collecting capacity.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
You virtually don't stand a chance to make a penny additional profit if you value your time above what you could earn putting in the same time and effort working at McDonalds (a fine job by the way). You might even be better off setting up a shoe shine stand outside PCGS and waiting for the employees to come outside for a shoe shine, especially if you also serve fresh lemonade.
This answer is specific to the specific question asked (with the assumption of no unique channels to sell large quantities of coins). Of course, there are myriad ways to make very good money submitting modern coins to PCGS.
As always, just my two cents. Wondercoin.
<< <i>how much does a 70 add to value? Maybe someone who does this regularly can give us a ratio. Mr. Maben may be able to offer some insight. >>
Minimum 2 to 3 times grading value depending upon "when" they make it to market.
Usually, a submitter will be able to tell what the typical ration is on the 1st submission of a specific coin type. The number of 70's return will reflect the price.
For Example, if 100 coins are submitted and only 1 hits that magic number, the prices will be relatively high.
If 100 are submitted and 70 hit that magical number, not so much.
The name is LEE!
I'm different I guess since I don't value my time at all especially with coins. That's what I tell my brother anyway. Your time is free with whatever you do with coins. Sure, keep track moneywise what goes in and comes back but other than that my time is not measured against my profit. Perhaps your answer was more metaphoric than hypothetical.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I think the shoe polishing stand would be a real winner. In fact, I just purchased a very expensive pair of Florsheim Imperial Longwings and a good polishing is needed about every five wearings. From what I understand, wingtips are "coming back", and there are very few "shoeshine" guys left. >>
Salud!
Now go home and get your shinebox!!!
coins available but they have actually lowered the cost for most buyers. People
just don't realize the effort required back in the old days to obtain Gems of "com-
mon" coins and other modern and near modern issues. You could spend more
on shoe leather alone than a nice Gem '69 quarter will cost you now. Any coin
that will provide a profit will be searched and everybody is competing with every-
one else to find the coins and make them available.
You can still buy older coins in quantities and there is competition to bring these
to market.
<< <i>I think the shoe polishing stand would be a real winner. In fact, I just purchased a very expensive pair of Florsheim Imperial Longwings and a good polishing is needed about every five wearings. From what I understand, wingtips are "coming back", and there are very few "shoeshine" guys left.
Hopefully, the quality is still high.
I have had mine for decades. Aside from a periodic re-sole when necessary, these shoes will last you a lifetime.
The biggest drawback to them is just after a re-sole, the devils are slippery until you scuff up the sole.
Outside of the registry hobby the mod coins are just fine in their USM packaging.
<< <i>I don't believe in slabbing mods where the slab cost exceeds 10% of the cost of the coin. Even if you do get a 70 what is the new value and will you get anywhere near all the money. One can check ebay auction results to see if its worth slabbing a particular issue to get a 70.
Outside of the registry hobby the mod coins are just fine in their USM packaging. >>
I agree that a Gem is a Gem in or out of an original holder.
But finding Gems and virtually perfect coins can be easier in a TPG holder than anywhere else.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>The physical difference between a MS69 and MS70 is rather trivial IMO. I wouldn't bother buying certified bullion coins, regardless of the grade that they are in. IMO certifying bullion coins defeat the point of them, which is to be invested, not collected. >>
Grading offers authentication of a coin in addition to condition of the coin. Many buyers of bullion coins for bullion investment prefer the advantage that authentication by a respected TPG offers in this day and age of counterfeits. 69 gold and silver eagles can be had at near the same price as raw. It not only protects the buyer but it also increases their pool of buyers down the road. I suspect as time goes on this authentication will become more important. I advise all my stacking clients to buy authentication when there is little price difference.
To the OP, there is no advantage in submitting a sealed box of West Point ASEs while there is an advantage in submitting sealed San Francisco ASEs - the (S) designation on the label. Searching the West Point box for what appears to be the flawless ones and then submitting those will greatly reduce your fees and increase your chances of 70s.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i> Grading offers authentication of a coin in addition to condition of the coin. Many buyers of bullion coins for bullion investment prefer the advantage that authentication by a respected TPG offers in this day and age of counterfeits. 69 gold and silver eagles can be had at near the same price as raw. It not only protects the buyer but it also increases their pool of buyers down the road. I suspect as time goes on this authentication will become more important. I advise all my stacking clients to buy authentication when there is little price difference.
To the OP, there is no advantage in submitting a sealed box of West Point ASEs while there is an advantage in submitting sealed San Francisco ASEs - the (S) designation on the label. Searching the West Point box for what appears to be the flawless ones and then submitting those will greatly reduce your fees and increase your chances of 70s. >>
IMO condition doesn't matter when it comes to bullion ASE's because they're intended to be investment pieces and not collectibles. Rhetorically speaking, I don't know why people even spend money to certify bullion coins at the 69 level, if a 69 coin is worth a similar amount of money to a raw coin. I would prefer a mint direct tube of ASE's from APMEX instead of a NGC or PCGS certified bullion ASE.
<< <i>
<< <i> Grading offers authentication of a coin in addition to condition of the coin. Many buyers of bullion coins for bullion investment prefer the advantage that authentication by a respected TPG offers in this day and age of counterfeits. 69 gold and silver eagles can be had at near the same price as raw. It not only protects the buyer but it also increases their pool of buyers down the road. I suspect as time goes on this authentication will become more important. I advise all my stacking clients to buy authentication when there is little price difference.
To the OP, there is no advantage in submitting a sealed box of West Point ASEs while there is an advantage in submitting sealed San Francisco ASEs - the (S) designation on the label. Searching the West Point box for what appears to be the flawless ones and then submitting those will greatly reduce your fees and increase your chances of 70s. >>
IMO condition doesn't matter when it comes to bullion ASE's because they're intended to be investment pieces and not collectibles. Rhetorically speaking, I don't know why people even spend money to certify bullion coins at the 69 level, if a 69 coin is worth a similar amount of money to a raw coin. I would prefer a mint direct tube of ASE's from APMEX instead of a NGC or PCGS certified bullion ASE. >>
Condition is only one of two important attributes certifed by the grading co. The other, authenticity of the item, guarantees it is not a counterfeit. This is important to someone buying a $1300+ gold coin that is known to be counterfeited. It's pretty cheap peace of mind and pays for itself come time to sell.
People spend money to certify bullion coins because there is a profitable market for them. Check out the current prices for a 2012 W $50 gold eagle in MS70 and even in MS69. Because bulk flippers expect to profit on the 70s and break even on the 69s, the 69s, with their gurantee of being authentic, are a good bargain to the bullion stacker. As counterfieting continues to grow and prices continue to rise, the day will come when buyers will be scared of even raw American Eagle bullion. Having a certifed American Eagle at that time will bring a better sale price.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
If you own a coin graded 70, it matters.
Just like it matters to the owner of a coin that's graded MS-64 instead of MS-63 when the difference might be a thousand bucks or more.
You don't have to agree with the opinion, and you don't have to believe that the minute differences between a 69 vs a 70 are worth anything, but that's the market.
As noted previously, it's an opinion rendered by professional, skilled graders. You pay for the opinion, and it gets memorialized in plastic. It is what it is.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I buy bullion coins from Eastern Numismatics raw and I'm certain that they're not counterfeit because they're a US Mint authorized purchaser. >>
And what will make your eventual buyer so certain? Re-sell should be an important consideration of all bullion purchases. Until one can be certain based on their own knowledge of the item in their hand they should definitely be using the authentication service provided by a top notch TPG.
Eastern Numismatics is not on very short list of 11 worldwide authorized purchasers American Eagle bullion. Chances are, you are getting yours at least (if not more) third hand.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
So thinking long term, maybe it's actually going to be better to have them kept in the tube.
<< <i>
<< <i>I buy bullion coins from Eastern Numismatics raw and I'm certain that they're not counterfeit because they're a US Mint authorized purchaser. >>
And what will make your eventual buyer so certain? Re-sell should be an important consideration of all bullion purchases. Until one can be certain based on their own knowledge of the item in their hand they should definitely be using the authentication service provided by a top notch TPG.
Eastern Numismatics is not on very short list of 11 worldwide authorized purchasers American Eagle bullion. Chances are, you are getting yours at least (if not more) third hand. >>
I always though that they were authorized purchasers.
They are in the US Mint's dealer database here http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/american_eagles/index.cfm?action=lookup and when I got directions to their showroom on mapquest here http://www.mapquest.com/us/new-york/business-garden-city/coin-jewelry-exchange-eastern-numismatics-1498790
Thanks for letting me know!
<< <i>Eastern Numismatics is not on very short list of 11 worldwide authorized purchasers American Eagle bullion. Chances are, you are getting yours at least (if not more) third hand. >>
<< <i>I always though that they were authorized purchasers. >>
<< <i>They are in the US Mint's dealer database here http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/american_eagles/index.cfm?action=lookup and when I got directions to their showroom on mapquest here http://www.mapquest.com/us/new-york/business-garden-city/coin-jewelry-exchange-eastern-numismatics-1498790. Thanks for letting me know! >>
That is a list of retailers of US Mint products, much different than the list of bullion authorized purchasers who supply these to the retailers.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>There was a time that the "have it graded for authenticity" logic held more merit than it does today. IF this trend of counterfeiting continues, or maybe it's already here, when one goes to sell the coins the first thing a potential buyer/makeshift assayer will ask is to have the coin removed from the plastic to see if it meets the specs of a legitimate coin, weight, thickness, sg etc..
So thinking long term, maybe it's actually going to be better to have them kept in the tube. >>
That's true when you have fake NGC and PCGS holders with real serial numbers out there.
<< <i>
<< <i>Eastern Numismatics is not on very short list of 11 worldwide authorized purchasers American Eagle bullion. Chances are, you are getting yours at least (if not more) third hand. >>
<< <i>I always though that they were authorized purchasers. >>
<< <i>They are in the US Mint's dealer database here http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/american_eagles/index.cfm?action=lookup and when I got directions to their showroom on mapquest here http://www.mapquest.com/us/new-york/business-garden-city/coin-jewelry-exchange-eastern-numismatics-1498790. Thanks for letting me know! >>
That is a list of retailers of US Mint products, much different than the list of bullion authorized purchasers who supply these to the retailers. >>
You always learn something new everyday as they say. When I went to their showroom, they even had those official ASE and AGE US Mint brochures.
<< <i>There was a time that the "have it graded for authenticity" logic held more merit than it does today. IF this trend of counterfeiting continues, or maybe it's already here, when one goes to sell the coins the first thing a potential buyer/makeshift assayer will ask is to have the coin removed from the plastic to see if it meets the specs of a legitimate coin, weight, thickness, sg etc..
So thinking long term, maybe it's actually going to be better to have them kept in the tube. >>
Top rated TPGs guarantee the coin is authentic. I'm sure they check it out before offering such a guarantee.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>IMO condition doesn't matter when it comes to bullion ASE's because they're intended to be investment pieces and not collectibles.
If you own a coin graded 70, it matters.
Just like it matters to the owner of a coin that's graded MS-64 instead of MS-63 when the difference might be a thousand bucks or more.
You don't have to agree with the opinion, and you don't have to believe that the minute differences between a 69 vs a 70 are worth anything, but that's the market.
As noted previously, it's an opinion rendered by professional, skilled graders. You pay for the opinion, and it gets memorialized in plastic. It is what it is. >>
If you own a coin graded 70, it matters……….for the time being. How comfortable do you feel paying significantly higher prices for a 70 vs a 69 and holding on to it for an extended period of time; five or ten years, maybe longer? At the 69 level, the differences can be so small, that you might need a strong glass (or microscope) to see them. An MS64 is often clearly superior (to the naked eye) in many ways to a 63. Still, your point is valid regarding the market's taste and value for MS70 coins, but I wonder how long this market trend will last.
The advantage of keeping USM products raw in the govt packing is if they develop spots and problems one can quickly remove them from the capsules and dip them and they look as new as the day they came from the mint lol.
I did slab some HOF coins I got from the mint for immediate blowout and did well doubling my money and slightly more on some but not long term hold. I expect the bids to go down on these, many were minted.
So thinking long term, maybe it's actually going to be better to have them kept in the tube. >>
Top rated TPGs guarantee the coin is authentic. I'm sure they check it out before offering such a guarantee.
This is true if the coin was actually graded and encapsulated by one of them.
But as I'm sure you are well aware, there are virtually indistinguishable "holders" all over the place now from every grading company. To the degree that if I owned a We Buy Gold type shop and someone walked in with a backpack of slabbed bullion, I might very well be inclined to ask them to de-capsulate them to perform my own authentication.
A holder can be used as a masking agent to camouflage a fake. You were speaking to the backside of the deal, the part where a guy sells; liquidity. I don't see having the coin encapsulated by any TPG (or is it?) who hasn't come up with a viable counter to the situation as contributing to consumer confidence much at all.
Home test kits more likely become the norm at the rate things are going. Can you crack that out so I can test it?