Well well well..... I leave for about 8 years and come back to find the same old pushy princess is still here. Yet some decent people are gone for good. Maybe the who's who in numismatics need to put her in her place. She seems to have a sick obsession with reigning over this forum.
I have been cheating on y'all and visiting some investing and personal finance and professional (MD-exclusive) message boards of late.
I am not going to go into great detail, but suffice to say, compared to what I have read (and typed) here over the last ten years, the sites that I have been frequenting have generally been dominated by one or another orthodoxy, and any deviation from this is ridiculed and dismissed. In contrast, there has generally been a reasonable diversity of opinion here, and it is better tolerated here than elsewhere.
Internet forums are not going away, and this forum autoregulates reasonably well. On some of these other sites, there is very heavy-handed moderation, with frequent intrusions and disciplinary action that is quite startling.
That said, Laura does make some good points in her HT, too. Misinformation can easily become "fact", and mistakes can be made and be damaging. There are some shady sellers that come here, probably looking for "fresh meat". What Laura may not realize is that the unscrupulous and under informed dealers do get weeded out, but this is mostly behind the scenes.
I think that in general, message boards are a double edged swords. What happens on this forum (the best) and the other coin forums (the Minors) is an overall reflection of the message board phenomenon, is not exclusive to coins, and is probably not as harmful as what can happen in other message board settings.
Now that I've lost the under 50 bet, real names would have an effect on personal attacks You seek to run a name through the mud, it usually sullies the mud dragger's name, too.
Though, again, there is an online identity that is associated with the posts. Who spreads manure regularly can be pointed out, even if it is a persona.
Laura is talking her book as in coin business ..... as it pertains to her business Seems people on this forum may learn too much by exchanging knowledge and ideas such as guess the grade etc ..forum members use this knowledge to challenge her words, coins , grading etc 'Just the guess the grade threads have helped me alot when asking questions or buying coins from dealers
<< <i>Laura is talking her book as in coin business ..... as it pertains to her business Seems people on this forum may learn too much by exchanging knowledge and ideas such as guess the grade etc ..forum members use this knowledge to challenge her words, coins , grading etc 'Just the guess the grade threads have helped me alot when asking questions or buying coins from dealers >>
Not to mention the most important part: It's just plain FUN.
<< <i>Wow. I'm usually (mostly) OK with what she rites... ahem, writes, but this one is really "out there". Her credibility would be enhanced greatly by having someone proof-read what she's posting before going live with it.
A. Internet forums don't have a monopoly on misinformation. In fact, my view is that this is one of the most useful places to find real opinions from real people who have real skin in the game. Are there idiots who post stupid things? Sure, but most people with a brain know how to sift through it. Is everything I post relevant or even accurate? Probably not. We're all at different levels. We're all learning. Most of us are actually trying to be helpful and as smart as we can in a complicated hobby. Some of the most helpful people in the world post here regularly. Do I have incorrect stuff floating around in my head that I picked up here? Maybe, but much of that is probably only a difference of opinion as opposed to factually incorrect beliefs.
B. The benefits of discretion, anonymity, and tact far outweigh the harm done by a few trolls who hide behind their keyboards.
C. Just because it's difficult to grade from photos doesn't mean we can't learn from the exercise.
D. Dealer bashing. Yeah, it probably isn't too tactful, and I'm sure it infuriates the honest dealers out there. However, you have to admit, there's a reason people do it. There are few people around the hobby who haven't been royally burned a time or two. There is also a distinction between a thread titled "What dealers don't want you to know" (which contains legitimate points of discussion) and outright bashing.
E. If she's crying sour grapes for losing some sales from bad information found on the Internet, it's her job to educate the consumer and do a better job as a salesperson. As a physician I'm bombarded every day with nonsense people dig up while surfing the web. All but the truly hopeless respond very nicely to clear information provided in an appropriate way by a professional.
F. I assume the TPGs will continue to run their forums as they see fit. She's always free to operate and bankroll her own. >>
You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage.
Funny how people here are up in arms and complaining online that she is complaining online. Pot-Kettle
I don't get why some people think it is such a big deal for her to have a problem... and state it on her company's own website. I really don't.
Also, she has probably done more for this hobby in the last couple of years that most everyone on these forums (myself definitely included) have done in their lifetime (or will likely do in their entire lifetime). Nothing wrong with that... some folks, like me, just like to collect.
As for this whole "misinformation" thing. I can see it. Heck... new collector comes online here, sees people with a lot of swagger and bravado and acting like they know what is what (maybe like calling something a MAJOR find, when it isn't) and they could go down the wrong path, waste money, get burned and leave the hobby, etc. I don't think having to use real names (enough here know mine as I have met more than a few folks in person) is the answer. I do know that, for those that say/pretend they are dealers, whether it is eBay/storefront/website/whatever, if they hide their real name, then I have a lot LESS trust and faith in them. To me, those folks (and I am sure I will upset some for saying it) are pretend dealers. Low barrier to entry, fly by night (whether it is 1 day, 1 month, 1 year, 10 years, or whatever doesn't matter to me), hide behind anonymity but say (right or wrong) whatever you want and not worry about sullying your rep type of dealers. Dealers like EagleEye, ThePennyLady, MrEureka, etc, etc, etc, get my respect on that part as they make themselves known who they are, don't trash on folks while hiding their identity, and are dealers who are there thick or thin.
<< <i>Wow. I'm usually (mostly) OK with what she rites... ahem, writes, but this one is really "out there". Her credibility would be enhanced greatly by having someone proof-read what she's posting before going live with it.
A. Internet forums don't have a monopoly on misinformation. In fact, my view is that this is one of the most useful places to find real opinions from real people who have real skin in the game. Are there idiots who post stupid things? Sure, but most people with a brain know how to sift through it. Is everything I post relevant or even accurate? Probably not. We're all at different levels. We're all learning. Most of us are actually trying to be helpful and as smart as we can in a complicated hobby. Some of the most helpful people in the world post here regularly. Do I have incorrect stuff floating around in my head that I picked up here? Maybe, but much of that is probably only a difference of opinion as opposed to factually incorrect beliefs.
B. The benefits of discretion, anonymity, and tact far outweigh the harm done by a few trolls who hide behind their keyboards.
C. Just because it's difficult to grade from photos doesn't mean we can't learn from the exercise.
D. Dealer bashing. Yeah, it probably isn't too tactful, and I'm sure it infuriates the honest dealers out there. However, you have to admit, there's a reason people do it. There are few people around the hobby who haven't been royally burned a time or two. There is also a distinction between a thread titled "What dealers don't want you to know" (which contains legitimate points of discussion) and outright bashing.
E. If she's crying sour grapes for losing some sales from bad information found on the Internet, it's her job to educate the consumer and do a better job as a salesperson. As a physician I'm bombarded every day with nonsense people dig up while surfing the web. All but the truly hopeless respond very nicely to clear information provided in an appropriate way by a professional.
F. I assume the TPGs will continue to run their forums as they see fit. She's always free to operate and bankroll her own. >>
This. Relevant. Well done. >>
Yeah, that sort of intelligence isn't welcome in the "sesspool"
<< <i>The blog refers back to a thread from last week. I was surprised at the context of a few posts within. Not going to link it or comment any further. I have no dog in this (fight ?) >>
I truly do not understand why someone who doesn't care to participate in the Forum chooses to participate by proxy. If she doesn't like something that is printed here, then please comment on it in the thread. She is lobbing hand grenades over the fence and claiming she doesn't want to be involved.
Personally I have no dog in this fight but the process being used to do battle is crap. Everyone already knows that the world/Forum would be perfect if things were done their way - unfortunately, perfect only for them.
Mowgli is my slave name.
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
<< <i>Laura is talking her book as in coin business ..... as it pertains to her business Seems people on this forum may learn too much by exchanging knowledge and ideas such as guess the grade etc ..forum members use this knowledge to challenge her words, coins , grading etc 'Just the guess the grade threads have helped me alot when asking questions or buying coins from dealers >>
I wonder what it was that was posted here that actually cost her some business.
<< <i>I've never tried to find out what anyone's real name was on this forum. Why would I care? >>
Agree. I only care when it's a forum coin dealer that I want to do business with or a fellow forum member that I want to do a BST transaction with. Otherwise, who cares?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Really Laura? You need to start by looking in the mirror. You are known for running your mouth at shows, not to mention tooting your own horn about your company, CAC and your Auction house. You may not be on the forums, but you do your own damage elsewhere. Any dealer that doesn't bow to CAC, you flame. So, get off your high horse. >>
Don't hold back. Please tell us how you really feel.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Laura is talking her book as in coin business ..... as it pertains to her business Seems people on this forum may learn too much by exchanging knowledge and ideas such as guess the grade etc ..forum members use this knowledge to challenge her words, coins , grading etc 'Just the guess the grade threads have helped me alot when asking questions or buying coins from dealers >>
I wonder what it was that was posted here that actually cost her some business. >>
There were a few threads showing expensive PCGS coins with titles such as "How did this coin ever get a grade?" One such thread discussed a coin that had a scratch and another thread discussed a coin that showed disturbance next to the date where it was speculated that the area was repaired. There are several other past examples where expensive coins were discussed in a less than flattering light. I'm guessing that these discussions may have made these coins more difficult to sell and possibly one of them may have been in Laura's inventory.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage. >>
What is the "risk" doing business with them? That is silly! I take far greater risk crossing the street. Nearly all of the people who make such claims do not do business with Legend or would not anyway.
I agree with Bochiman, too. It's the Legend website, and she has the same free speech protection that you or I do. Of course, Legend is a much bigger submitter to PCGS and an advertiser, too boot, so Legend has far greater influence on the existence of this forum than you or I.
The anti-Legend postings have always had undertones of misogyny and jealousy, IMO.
Finally, this forum has, IMO, done more good than harm, for me and other collectors, but it has not been all good, either.
<< <i>You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage. >>
What is the "risk" doing business with them? That is silly! I take far greater risk crossing the street. Nearly all of the people who make such claims do not do business with Legend or would not anyway.
I agree with Bochiman, too. It's the Legend website, and she has the same free speech protection that you or I do. Of course, Legend is a much bigger submitter to PCGS and an advertiser, too boot, so Legend has far greater influence on the existence of this forum than you or I.
The anti-Legend postings have always had undertones of misogyny and jealousy, IMO.
Finally, this forum has, IMO, done more good than harm, for me and other collectors, but it has not been all good, either. >>
I wish that I had a better understanding of the postings that caused her to blow a gasket like that. I think it would take either a direct swipe at one's reputation or souring a business deal in some way to provoke such a tirade, but I really don't recall anything in recent threads like that. In any case, no discussion board is perfect, this one auto-regulates pretty well, and I've learned a lot (and found some nice coins) thanks to the membership here.
Thanks BryceM and RYK for your well-reasoned posts.
<< <i>Is it hypocritical if she asks for our names but refuses to give the names of all the known coin doctors she talks about all the time? If it is so harmless, what is she afraid of? Post them on the internet and stop spreading rumors that can't be substantiated because you won't name names. Post the names of all these coin doctors you know and I will post my name at the bottom of my post. Here is what she wrote with a few additions in caps by me:
"My solution is simple: make COIN DOCTORS be identified by their REAL names. This will cut down ANY attacks, misinformation, problem trades and dealer shenanigans. Further, with not having to be identified did you ever stop to think how you really have no clue who you are speaking too? Sadly, the need for making names public is too stop abuse. TIME FOR MAJOR CHANGES! It will make COIN COLLECTING a much SAFER place IF YOU JUST NAME THE COIN DOCTORS IN PUBLIC! "
Sometimes I feel like I am watching a child throwing a tantrum when I read the hot topics. >>
ust
Trust me Laura doesn't care about coin doctors unless it costs her money. Any good dealer buying a coin sign seen should not be ripped off by a coin doctor.
I did not read the original offending thread. That being said, is this the kind of response you would want to see on the company website by one of the principals of a well known and respected firm dealing in high dollar material being sold to relatively affluent and intelligent clients? She is entitled to say anything she wants, but I wonder how this scorched earth approach resonates with the other principals at Legend?
As far as this hurting Legend's business, it just ain't gonna happen, most coin collectors would deal with Satan if he had a coin for sale they wanted
<< <i>I wish that I had a better understanding of the postings that caused her to blow a gasket like that. I think it would take either a direct swipe at one's reputation or souring a business deal in some way to provoke such a tirade, but I really don't recall anything in recent threads like that. In any case, no discussion board is perfect, this one auto-regulates pretty well, and I've learned a lot (and found some nice coins) thanks to the membership here.
Thanks BryceM and RYK for your well-reasoned posts. >>
<< <i>Is it hypocritical if she asks for our names but refuses to give the names of all the known coin doctors she talks about all the time? If it is so harmless, what is she afraid of? Post them on the internet and stop spreading rumors that can't be substantiated because you won't name names. Post the names of all these coin doctors you know and I will post my name at the bottom of my post. Here is what she wrote with a few additions in caps by me:
"My solution is simple: make COIN DOCTORS be identified by their REAL names. This will cut down ANY attacks, misinformation, problem trades and dealer shenanigans. Further, with not having to be identified did you ever stop to think how you really have no clue who you are speaking too? Sadly, the need for making names public is too stop abuse. TIME FOR MAJOR CHANGES! It will make COIN COLLECTING a much SAFER place IF YOU JUST NAME THE COIN DOCTORS IN PUBLIC! "
Sometimes I feel like I am watching a child throwing a tantrum when I read the hot topics. >>
This struck me as well--While I am generally a big supporter of Laura Sperber, she has steadfastly failed and refused to practice what she speaks and to be completely open with regard to naming coin doctors. She rants against them and works to clean it up, but she will not name names. Of course, it is not an entirely hypocritical position as there are differences...by doing so, she exposes herself to litigation, etc., so I understand her dilemma.
But I don't see what happened to cause such a fury. The OP to which she referred was pretty benign. And it was followed by a similar OP about what coin collectors don't want their dealers to know. So, I just don't get it. And I am not entirely against the openness she suggests. I have seen anonymous posters trash legitimate businesses and hide behind the anonymity of the web. But as MrEureka points out, security concerns make that unworkable here.
This board has some misinformation. Usually, but not always, it gets criticized and corrected swiftly and sometimes insensitively. But I, for one, have learned much from these Boards, and I am not a beginner. I am genuinely thankful for the high level of expertise on these boards. It represents a huge net positive. On the few occassions when I can actually understand ColonelJessup, I usually learn something. And I suspect that if Laura Sperber joined these boards, that, too, would be a net positive.
<< <i>You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage. >>
What is the "risk" doing business with them? That is silly! I take far greater risk crossing the street. Nearly all of the people who make such claims do not do business with Legend or would not anyway. >>
Well to each his own. I for one, after reading something like what was written, would not feel confidant in what type of customer service I might receive if I had a problem. Would there be a bizarre off the cuff insulting response or would it be handled professionally? Based on so many of these rants, some that have been deleted, I am not sure it would be professional, because those columns are anything but! I do not think it is worth the "RISK".
<< <i>You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage. >>
What is the "risk" doing business with them? That is silly! I take far greater risk crossing the street. Nearly all of the people who make such claims do not do business with Legend or would not anyway. >>
Well to each his own. I for one, after reading something like what was written, would not feel confidant in what type of customer service I might receive if I had a problem. Would there be a bizarre off the cuff insulting response or would it be handled professionally? Based on so many of these rants, some that have been deleted, I am not sure it would be professional, because those columns are anything but! I do not think it is worth the "RISK". >>
Have you ever seen a Legend customer complain about Legend? Have you ever seen Legend publicly bag a customer? I have not. It sounds like they would have more RISK dealing with you than the other way around.
<< <i>You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage. >>
What is the "risk" doing business with them? That is silly! I take far greater risk crossing the street. Nearly all of the people who make such claims do not do business with Legend or would not anyway. >>
Well to each his own. I for one, after reading something like what was written, would not feel confidant in what type of customer service I might receive if I had a problem. Would there be a bizarre off the cuff insulting response or would it be handled professionally? Based on so many of these rants, some that have been deleted, I am not sure it would be professional, because those columns are anything but! I do not think it is worth the "RISK". >>
Spent $10k with Legend last week. Biggest risk was someone getting to the coin before I did.
I find it sad that some of those who decry Laura for her unreasonable or non-constructive comments are not themselves trying to be reasonable or constructive: like Author1, Wabbit2313 and a few others.
It is far easier to slam someone else than to step up and try to do something positive.
<< <i>What cost Laura my business was her leaving a show early. This was a bunch of years ago in NYC. >>
You must have only about 4 dealers to choose from if you have consistently maintained that approach. >>
Barry has a very long history of disliking Laura. Check his very old posts. His comments seemed very personal to me. Since then, I've just ignored his comments as the ravings of a person with an axe to grind.
<< <i> Have you ever seen a Legend customer complain about Legend? Have you ever seen Legend publicly bag a customer? I have not. It sounds like they would have more RISK dealing with you than the other way around. >>
Amazing how the condescending, when they run out of rational thoughts, resort to personal attacks.
I also view the latest column as a personal attack on all PCGS forum members.
<< <i> Have you ever seen a Legend customer complain about Legend? Have you ever seen Legend publicly bag a customer? I have not. It sounds like they would have more RISK dealing with you than the other way around. >>
Amazing how the condescending, when they run out of rational thoughts, resort to personal attacks.
I also view the latest column as a personal attack on all PCGS forum members. >>
I don't need you to defend me.
I prefer that you simply respond constructively and with reasonableness. Otherwise, I suggest you chill out.
Comments
Hopefully we will see an improvement soon, and many of the experienced posters will come back
I am not going to go into great detail, but suffice to say, compared to what I have read (and typed) here over the last ten years, the sites that I have been frequenting have generally been dominated by one or another orthodoxy, and any deviation from this is ridiculed and dismissed. In contrast, there has generally been a reasonable diversity of opinion here, and it is better tolerated here than elsewhere.
Internet forums are not going away, and this forum autoregulates reasonably well. On some of these other sites, there is very heavy-handed moderation, with frequent intrusions and disciplinary action that is quite startling.
That said, Laura does make some good points in her HT, too. Misinformation can easily become "fact", and mistakes can be made and be damaging. There are some shady sellers that come here, probably looking for "fresh meat". What Laura may not realize is that the unscrupulous and under informed dealers do get weeded out, but this is mostly behind the scenes.
I think that in general, message boards are a double edged swords. What happens on this forum (the best) and the other coin forums (the Minors) is an overall reflection of the message board phenomenon, is not exclusive to coins, and is probably not as harmful as what can happen in other message board settings.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i>Welcome to a democracy - if you don't like free speech, move to Russia.
And give up the one thing we have here that they don't have in Russia? The warning shot.
Yakov Smirnoff
You seek to run a name through the mud, it usually sullies the mud dragger's name, too.
Though, again, there is an online identity that is associated with the posts. Who spreads manure regularly can be pointed out, even if it is a persona.
Seems people on this forum may learn too much by exchanging knowledge and ideas such as guess the grade etc ..forum members use this knowledge to challenge her words, coins , grading etc
'Just the guess the grade threads have helped me alot when asking questions or buying coins from dealers
<< <i>Laura is talking her book as in coin business ..... as it pertains to her business
Seems people on this forum may learn too much by exchanging knowledge and ideas such as guess the grade etc ..forum members use this knowledge to challenge her words, coins , grading etc
'Just the guess the grade threads have helped me alot when asking questions or buying coins from dealers
Not to mention the most important part: It's just plain FUN.
<< <i>Wow. I'm usually (mostly) OK with what she rites... ahem, writes, but this one is really "out there". Her credibility would be enhanced greatly by having someone proof-read what she's posting before going live with it.
A. Internet forums don't have a monopoly on misinformation. In fact, my view is that this is one of the most useful places to find real opinions from real people who have real skin in the game. Are there idiots who post stupid things? Sure, but most people with a brain know how to sift through it. Is everything I post relevant or even accurate? Probably not. We're all at different levels. We're all learning. Most of us are actually trying to be helpful and as smart as we can in a complicated hobby. Some of the most helpful people in the world post here regularly. Do I have incorrect stuff floating around in my head that I picked up here? Maybe, but much of that is probably only a difference of opinion as opposed to factually incorrect beliefs.
B. The benefits of discretion, anonymity, and tact far outweigh the harm done by a few trolls who hide behind their keyboards.
C. Just because it's difficult to grade from photos doesn't mean we can't learn from the exercise.
D. Dealer bashing. Yeah, it probably isn't too tactful, and I'm sure it infuriates the honest dealers out there. However, you have to admit, there's a reason people do it. There are few people around the hobby who haven't been royally burned a time or two. There is also a distinction between a thread titled "What dealers don't want you to know" (which contains legitimate points of discussion) and outright bashing.
E. If she's crying sour grapes for losing some sales from bad information found on the Internet, it's her job to educate the consumer and do a better job as a salesperson. As a physician I'm bombarded every day with nonsense people dig up while surfing the web. All but the truly hopeless respond very nicely to clear information provided in an appropriate way by a professional.
F. I assume the TPGs will continue to run their forums as they see fit. She's always free to operate and bankroll her own. >>
This. Relevant. Well done.
EAC 6024
You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage.
Pot-Kettle
I don't get why some people think it is such a big deal for her to have a problem... and state it on her company's own website. I really don't.
Also, she has probably done more for this hobby in the last couple of years that most everyone on these forums (myself definitely included) have done in their lifetime (or will likely do in their entire lifetime). Nothing wrong with that... some folks, like me, just like to collect.
As for this whole "misinformation" thing. I can see it. Heck... new collector comes online here, sees people with a lot of swagger and bravado and acting like they know what is what (maybe like calling something a MAJOR find, when it isn't) and they could go down the wrong path, waste money, get burned and leave the hobby, etc. I don't think having to use real names (enough here know mine as I have met more than a few folks in person) is the answer. I do know that, for those that say/pretend they are dealers, whether it is eBay/storefront/website/whatever, if they hide their real name, then I have a lot LESS trust and faith in them.
To me, those folks (and I am sure I will upset some for saying it) are pretend dealers. Low barrier to entry, fly by night (whether it is 1 day, 1 month, 1 year, 10 years, or whatever doesn't matter to me), hide behind anonymity but say (right or wrong) whatever you want and not worry about sullying your rep type of dealers. Dealers like EagleEye, ThePennyLady, MrEureka, etc, etc, etc, get my respect on that part as they make themselves known who they are, don't trash on folks while hiding their identity, and are dealers who are there thick or thin.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow. I'm usually (mostly) OK with what she rites... ahem, writes, but this one is really "out there". Her credibility would be enhanced greatly by having someone proof-read what she's posting before going live with it.
A. Internet forums don't have a monopoly on misinformation. In fact, my view is that this is one of the most useful places to find real opinions from real people who have real skin in the game. Are there idiots who post stupid things? Sure, but most people with a brain know how to sift through it. Is everything I post relevant or even accurate? Probably not. We're all at different levels. We're all learning. Most of us are actually trying to be helpful and as smart as we can in a complicated hobby. Some of the most helpful people in the world post here regularly. Do I have incorrect stuff floating around in my head that I picked up here? Maybe, but much of that is probably only a difference of opinion as opposed to factually incorrect beliefs.
B. The benefits of discretion, anonymity, and tact far outweigh the harm done by a few trolls who hide behind their keyboards.
C. Just because it's difficult to grade from photos doesn't mean we can't learn from the exercise.
D. Dealer bashing. Yeah, it probably isn't too tactful, and I'm sure it infuriates the honest dealers out there. However, you have to admit, there's a reason people do it. There are few people around the hobby who haven't been royally burned a time or two. There is also a distinction between a thread titled "What dealers don't want you to know" (which contains legitimate points of discussion) and outright bashing.
E. If she's crying sour grapes for losing some sales from bad information found on the Internet, it's her job to educate the consumer and do a better job as a salesperson. As a physician I'm bombarded every day with nonsense people dig up while surfing the web. All but the truly hopeless respond very nicely to clear information provided in an appropriate way by a professional.
F. I assume the TPGs will continue to run their forums as they see fit. She's always free to operate and bankroll her own. >>
This. Relevant. Well done. >>
Yeah, that sort of intelligence isn't welcome in the "sesspool"
<< <i>The blog refers back to a thread from last week. I was surprised at the context of a few posts within. Not going to link it or comment any further. I have no dog in this (fight ?) >>
Looks like I missed out on all the excitement.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
If she doesn't like something that is printed here, then please comment on it in the thread.
She is lobbing hand grenades over the fence and claiming she doesn't want to be involved.
Personally I have no dog in this fight but the process being used to do battle is crap.
Everyone already knows that the world/Forum would be perfect if things were done their way - unfortunately, perfect only for them.
Mowgli is my slave name.
<< <i>She's been complaining about "CHAT ROOMS" for over a decade... >>
These aren't even chat rooms, they're discussion boards. There is a linky for the chat room right next to the search button.
<< <i>Laura is talking her book as in coin business ..... as it pertains to her business
Seems people on this forum may learn too much by exchanging knowledge and ideas such as guess the grade etc ..forum members use this knowledge to challenge her words, coins , grading etc
'Just the guess the grade threads have helped me alot when asking questions or buying coins from dealers
I wonder what it was that was posted here that actually cost her some business.
<< <i>I've never tried to find out what anyone's real name was on this forum. Why would I care?
Agree. I only care when it's a forum coin dealer that I want to do business with or a fellow forum member that I want to do a BST transaction with. Otherwise, who cares?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Really Laura? You need to start by looking in the mirror. You are known for running your mouth at shows, not to mention tooting your own horn about your company, CAC and your Auction house. You may not be on the forums, but you do your own damage elsewhere. Any dealer that doesn't bow to CAC, you flame. So, get off your high horse. >>
Don't hold back. Please tell us how you really feel.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
On the Coin/Art market: Coins will never approach art in appeal for the very rich.
<< <i>
<< <i>Laura is talking her book as in coin business ..... as it pertains to her business
Seems people on this forum may learn too much by exchanging knowledge and ideas such as guess the grade etc ..forum members use this knowledge to challenge her words, coins , grading etc
'Just the guess the grade threads have helped me alot when asking questions or buying coins from dealers
I wonder what it was that was posted here that actually cost her some business. >>
There were a few threads showing expensive PCGS coins with titles such as "How did this coin ever get a grade?" One such thread discussed a coin that had a scratch and another thread discussed a coin that showed disturbance next to the date where it was speculated that the area was repaired. There are several other past examples where expensive coins were discussed in a less than flattering light. I'm guessing that these discussions may have made these coins more difficult to sell and possibly one of them may have been in Laura's inventory.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage. >>
What is the "risk" doing business with them? That is silly! I take far greater risk crossing the street. Nearly all of the people who make such claims do not do business with Legend or would not anyway.
I agree with Bochiman, too. It's the Legend website, and she has the same free speech protection that you or I do. Of course, Legend is a much bigger submitter to PCGS and an advertiser, too boot, so Legend has far greater influence on the existence of this forum than you or I.
The anti-Legend postings have always had undertones of misogyny and jealousy, IMO.
Finally, this forum has, IMO, done more good than harm, for me and other collectors, but it has not been all good, either.
<< <i>
<< <i>You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage. >>
What is the "risk" doing business with them? That is silly! I take far greater risk crossing the street. Nearly all of the people who make such claims do not do business with Legend or would not anyway.
I agree with Bochiman, too. It's the Legend website, and she has the same free speech protection that you or I do. Of course, Legend is a much bigger submitter to PCGS and an advertiser, too boot, so Legend has far greater influence on the existence of this forum than you or I.
The anti-Legend postings have always had undertones of misogyny and jealousy, IMO.
Finally, this forum has, IMO, done more good than harm, for me and other collectors, but it has not been all good, either. >>
Well said.
Latin American Collection
<< <i>Does anyone know if she drinks? Was her account hacked? Seems way over the top to me. The offending thread was fairly boring.
Maybe the board should boycott her for 1 week. No coins sent to CAC. No coins bought from her site. She'll get the message pretty quick >>
Seriously, do you honestly believe that this is an intelligent response?
Latin American Collection
Thanks BryceM and RYK for your well-reasoned posts.
<< <i>Is it hypocritical if she asks for our names but refuses to give the names of all the known coin doctors she talks about all the time? If it is so harmless, what is she afraid of? Post them on the internet and stop spreading rumors that can't be substantiated because you won't name names. Post the names of all these coin doctors you know and I will post my name at the bottom of my post. Here is what she wrote with a few additions in caps by me:
"My solution is simple: make COIN DOCTORS be identified by their REAL names. This will cut down ANY attacks, misinformation, problem trades and dealer shenanigans. Further, with not having to be identified did you ever stop to think how you really have no clue who you are speaking too? Sadly, the need for making names public is too stop abuse. TIME FOR MAJOR CHANGES! It will make COIN COLLECTING a much SAFER place IF YOU JUST NAME THE COIN DOCTORS IN PUBLIC! "
Sometimes I feel like I am watching a child throwing a tantrum when I read the hot topics. >>
ust
Trust me Laura doesn't care about coin doctors unless it costs her money. Any good dealer buying a coin sign seen should not be ripped off by a coin doctor.
As far as this hurting Legend's business, it just ain't gonna happen, most coin collectors would deal with Satan if he had a coin for sale they wanted
<< <i>I wish that I had a better understanding of the postings that caused her to blow a gasket like that. I think it would take either a direct swipe at one's reputation or souring a business deal in some way to provoke such a tirade, but I really don't recall anything in recent threads like that. In any case, no discussion board is perfect, this one auto-regulates pretty well, and I've learned a lot (and found some nice coins) thanks to the membership here.
Thanks BryceM and RYK for your well-reasoned posts. >>
+1
Tom
<< <i>Does anyone know if she drinks? Was her account hacked? Seems way over the top to me. The offending thread was fairly boring.
Maybe the board should boycott her for 1 week. No coins sent to CAC. No coins bought from her site. She'll get the message pretty quick. >>
I stopped buying coins from her many years ago because she is so obnoxious.
<< <i>Is it hypocritical if she asks for our names but refuses to give the names of all the known coin doctors she talks about all the time? If it is so harmless, what is she afraid of? Post them on the internet and stop spreading rumors that can't be substantiated because you won't name names. Post the names of all these coin doctors you know and I will post my name at the bottom of my post. Here is what she wrote with a few additions in caps by me:
"My solution is simple: make COIN DOCTORS be identified by their REAL names. This will cut down ANY attacks, misinformation, problem trades and dealer shenanigans. Further, with not having to be identified did you ever stop to think how you really have no clue who you are speaking too? Sadly, the need for making names public is too stop abuse. TIME FOR MAJOR CHANGES! It will make COIN COLLECTING a much SAFER place IF YOU JUST NAME THE COIN DOCTORS IN PUBLIC! "
Sometimes I feel like I am watching a child throwing a tantrum when I read the hot topics. >>
This struck me as well--While I am generally a big supporter of Laura Sperber, she has steadfastly failed and refused to practice what she speaks and to be completely open with regard to naming coin doctors. She rants against them and works to clean it up, but she will not name names. Of course, it is not an entirely hypocritical position as there are differences...by doing so, she exposes herself to litigation, etc., so I understand her dilemma.
But I don't see what happened to cause such a fury. The OP to which she referred was pretty benign. And it was followed by a similar OP about what coin collectors don't want their dealers to know. So, I just don't get it. And I am not entirely against the openness she suggests. I have seen anonymous posters trash legitimate businesses and hide behind the anonymity of the web. But as MrEureka points out, security concerns make that unworkable here.
This board has some misinformation. Usually, but not always, it gets criticized and corrected swiftly and sometimes insensitively. But I, for one, have learned much from these Boards, and I am not a beginner. I am genuinely thankful for the high level of expertise on these boards. It represents a huge net positive. On the few occassions when I can actually understand ColonelJessup, I usually learn something. And I suspect that if Laura Sperber joined these boards, that, too, would be a net positive.
Tom
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
<< <i>But I don't see what happened to cause such a fury. >>
Because this has been going on for years.
<< <i>
<< <i>You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage. >>
What is the "risk" doing business with them? That is silly! I take far greater risk crossing the street. Nearly all of the people who make such claims do not do business with Legend or would not anyway.
>>
Well to each his own. I for one, after reading something like what was written, would not feel confidant in what type of customer service I might receive if I had a problem. Would there be a bizarre off the cuff insulting response or would it be handled professionally? Based on so many of these rants, some that have been deleted, I am not sure it would be professional, because those columns are anything but! I do not think it is worth the "RISK".
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage. >>
What is the "risk" doing business with them? That is silly! I take far greater risk crossing the street. Nearly all of the people who make such claims do not do business with Legend or would not anyway.
>>
Well to each his own. I for one, after reading something like what was written, would not feel confidant in what type of customer service I might receive if I had a problem. Would there be a bizarre off the cuff insulting response or would it be handled professionally? Based on so many of these rants, some that have been deleted, I am not sure it would be professional, because those columns are anything but! I do not think it is worth the "RISK". >>
Have you ever seen a Legend customer complain about Legend? Have you ever seen Legend publicly bag a customer? I have not. It sounds like they would have more RISK dealing with you than the other way around.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You read a rant like that and wonder if it would be worth the risk doing business with them. I am quite confidant you would never see such talk and close-mindedness from Heritage. >>
What is the "risk" doing business with them? That is silly! I take far greater risk crossing the street. Nearly all of the people who make such claims do not do business with Legend or would not anyway.
>>
Well to each his own. I for one, after reading something like what was written, would not feel confidant in what type of customer service I might receive if I had a problem. Would there be a bizarre off the cuff insulting response or would it be handled professionally? Based on so many of these rants, some that have been deleted, I am not sure it would be professional, because those columns are anything but! I do not think it is worth the "RISK". >>
Spent $10k with Legend last week. Biggest risk was someone getting to the coin before I did.
Latin American Collection
While you personally may or may not be an idiot, that statement is idiotic and patently false.
No wonder Hot Topics get written and PCGS considers shutting this place down time after time....
This was a bunch of years ago in NYC.
<< <i>What cost Laura my business was her leaving a show early.
This was a bunch of years ago in NYC. >>
You must have only about 4 dealers to choose from if you have consistently maintained that approach.
Latin American Collection
It is far easier to slam someone else than to step up and try to do something positive.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>
<< <i>What cost Laura my business was her leaving a show early.
This was a bunch of years ago in NYC. >>
You must have only about 4 dealers to choose from if you have consistently maintained that approach. >>
Barry has a very long history of disliking Laura. Check his very old posts. His comments seemed very personal to me. Since then, I've just ignored his comments as the ravings of a person with an axe to grind.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>
Have you ever seen a Legend customer complain about Legend? Have you ever seen Legend publicly bag a customer? I have not. It sounds like they would have more RISK dealing with you than the other way around. >>
Amazing how the condescending, when they run out of rational thoughts, resort to personal attacks.
I also view the latest column as a personal attack on all PCGS forum members.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Have you ever seen a Legend customer complain about Legend? Have you ever seen Legend publicly bag a customer? I have not. It sounds like they would have more RISK dealing with you than the other way around. >>
Amazing how the condescending, when they run out of rational thoughts, resort to personal attacks.
I also view the latest column as a personal attack on all PCGS forum members. >>
I don't need you to defend me.
I prefer that you simply respond constructively and with reasonableness. Otherwise, I suggest you chill out.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>I also view the latest column as a personal attack on all PCGS forum members. >>
Not all - just a select few.