OK, I admit it, I am clueless on understanding coin grading!
WingedLiberty1957
Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭✭
Top coin is a PCGS MS66+BN ... Bottom coin is a PCGS MS64BN.
To my eye, the bottom coin looks like a higher grade than the top coin ... not 2.5 grades lower.
What am I missing?
If I didnt know the grades, I would have guessed the bottom coin is the MS66+
MS66+BN
Extra Large Image of MS66+
MS64BN
Extra Large Image of MS64
To my eye, the bottom coin looks like a higher grade than the top coin ... not 2.5 grades lower.
What am I missing?
If I didnt know the grades, I would have guessed the bottom coin is the MS66+
MS66+BN
Extra Large Image of MS66+
MS64BN
Extra Large Image of MS64
0
Comments
There must be some fundamental piece of knowledge that I just don't have to explain this.
If anyone knows, please post as I would like to learn.
MS66+BN
MS64BN
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Are you sure the photos aren't turned around?
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
There are some nasty gouges in the reverse of the 66+ along with some black carbon spots.
Meanwhile the 64 looks hammered and glossy with no obvious problems.
I am perplexed. I guess the 64 is a shoo in for a gold CAC bean.
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Hand me a 100 Lincoln cents and I will give you a grade in less than 15 seconds each, mix them up and hand them to me again, I will grade them in 15 seconds or less. I may or may not give the same grade the second time again.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
but if we are paying between $20 and $60 for a profressional grade, should we get more than 15 seconds of their time?
At least I would want them to take enough time to get the grade right ... or at least close to being right.
Let me see ... how about a quick back of the envelope calculation ...
Let's say the average grading fee is $40 ... for 15 seconds of a graders time
That's $160 for a minute of their time
That works out to $9,600 per hour of their time (that's $76,800 per day or an annual salary of $18.5 million) ... I realize that it doesn't really work like that.
But it seems like they could spend a bit more time than 15 seconds if it would improve the consistency or correctness ???
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
I own the upper 1917 graded 66+BN. It started at 65BN in Mike Takada's collection. He had the nicest looking nearly complete set of high grade PCGS brown lincolns ever assembled. I'm currently trying to outdo him. This coin was among about 7 or 8 that the owner and consignor Andy Skrabalak thought were undergraded when the set came up for sale last year. Andy resubmitted it and it graded 66BN one time through PCGS, and then 66+ BN the next time. I like the coin as a 66BN but I'm not going to turn the higher grade down. Andy Skrabalak did the work getting those grades. Andy, who is the most experienced Lincoln dealer in the world, said he thinks it could grade 67BN. I haven't asked him why.
The first time through PCGS body-bagged the lower coin it for it's color. I can't remember if it bodybagged a second time. This last time it got 64BN. I've seen many images of this coin but havent' held it in hand but t I've seen which were taken at multiple angles.
I don't know what the difference is to the graders because they haven't had time to give me a call (tee hee) but here are some thoughts:
a) I think we can conclude PGGS feels there is a significant consistent difference given they've seen both several times with a large disparity in grade both times
b)I think the surfaces of the lower 1917 are cleaner than the upper one, the upper one has a couple little dings and spots out of focal areas. That's a plus for the lower graded coin.
c) But what my experience tells me trumps that is the color and the luster. The lower coin is glossy. Glossy coins often max out at 64 thus lacking luster. I believe the lower coin has seen a surface treatment of some kind. It could have been a 66 before it saw a treatment. In multiple other images of that coin it appears greasy and with a silver sheen. It doesn't look that way straight on. I told Coppertoning I wasn't sure they would ever grade it because of the look. I suggested he send it in multiple times to see if the opinion changes.
d) the upper 1917 has incredible mint bloom frost, I'm holding it in my hands right now. PCGS seems to consistently reward this kind of untouched, unmarred original fresh mint bloom which is rare on these old lincolns. Other than being brown, it has a look of a roll fresh 1926 P Lincoln.
It could be that they simply got these two coins all wrong. The only way to even come close to answering which is nicer is to break them both out and submit them together raw. That's not happening
Are the grading companies too poor to afford magnification equipment?
I would love to see these two coins side by side and perhaps even have them photographed and graded side by side. However they were both photographed out of the slab, by the same photographer, and with the same equipment -- so we have removed a number of degrees of freedom in the comparison.
Do you have any alternate (better) images of the 1917 that you have in hand?
Just based on those out of the slab CoinFacts photos taken by Phil Arnold at PCGS ... I would be ALL OVER that 64BN like white on rice ... and I would be running (screaming) from that 66+BN as it just looks dark and flat from the images ... and I hate carbon spots. To say nothing about the lower guide price as the 64BN is 700% (7x) cheaper than the 66+BN
That being said, I have no idea if the 64BN had some sort of surface treatment or if it was doctored ... but isn't PCGS supposed to detect those sort of shenanigans and body bag those coins?
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>1st rule of grading - you can't grade by comparison unless the comparison coin is certianly not overgraded or undergraded. >>
2nd rule of "grading" - you often can't assume the first or second trip in to a TPG is the true grade. And certainly the highest grade out of multiple trips is often not the true grade either.
3rd rule of grading - it sometimes depends on who, what, when, and why.
If you want an essentially true grade of any coin, send it in 5 times, toss out the high and low, and then take the average. An alternative method is you can stop if the same grade is received 2 out of 2, 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 4
tries (pluses and other attributes don't count.....just the numerical grade). I'm not a fan of the high point toning breaks on the 66+ BN. In many cases removing that toning removes some metal as well.
<< <i>PennyAnnie, I see what you are saying ...
but if we are paying between $20 and $60 for a profressional grade, should we get more than 15 seconds of their time?
At least I would want them to take enough time to get the grade right ... or at least close to being right.
Let me see ... how about a quick back of the envelope calculation ...
Let's say the average grading fee is $40 ... for 15 seconds of a graders time
That's $160 for a minute of their time
That works out to $9,600 per hour of their time (that's $76,800 per day or an annual salary of $18.5 million) ... I realize that it doesn't really work like that.
But it seems like they could spend a bit more time than 15 seconds if it would improve the consistency or correctness ??? >>
I agree with you!!
I really do not know how long is spent on a coin but I have heard the 15 seconds. I would hope that more time is spent... but I doubt the 2 coins shown are given the same amount of time as a 1794 dollar or other high profile coin. I did know a kid ( early 20's) that worked at a local coin shop. He got a job with NGC and went away. He was still pretty fresh to coins. He called and told me that he was already doing bulk gradings on silver eagles in the 2 or 3 month of being there and a follow up call months later he was sick of looking at silver eagles. lol
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Then they should slow down and get it right. The "P" in PCGS stands for "professional"! There is NO excuse in them getting it wrong.
They blew it on both of the cents in this thread. The grades should be turned around.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Anyway, I don't know anything about grading these, but the biggest observable difference I can see is color and surface or finish. The bottom coin looks unusual. there is a brown mark that might affect eye appeal on Lincoln's cheek - other than this stuff I have no idea. I'd take the top one is pressed, from these photos, because it looks more like those I have seen that are "good".
Eric
<< <i>PennyAnnie, I see what you are saying ...
but if we are paying between $20 and $60 for a profressional grade, should we get more than 15 seconds of their time?
At least I would want them to take enough time to get the grade right ... or at least close to being right.
Let me see ... how about a quick back of the envelope calculation ...
Let's say the average grading fee is $40 ... for 15 seconds of a graders time
That's $160 for a minute of their time
That works out to $9,600 per hour of their time (that's $76,800 per day or an annual salary of $18.5 million) ... I realize that it doesn't really work like that.
But it seems like they could spend a bit more time than 15 seconds if it would improve the consistency or correctness ??? >>
I highly doubt that PCGS or the grader cares if the grade is accurate unless. They want the money first the who cares. JMO
<< <i> If you want an essentially true grade of any coin, send it in 5 times, toss out the high and low, and then take the average. An alternative method is you can stop if the same grade is received 2 out of 2, 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 4 tries (pluses and other attributes don't count.....just the numerical grade). >>
This is making me laugh! Now that I am thinking about it.
Imagine hiring a house inspector for $300
And he comes to your house but is only there for 15 seconds because he has a lot of houses on his schedule for the day
Sorry he missed the termite damage, leaky roof, rotted rafters, and foundation cracks, but what did you expect? He did the best he could in 15 seconds!
If you want your house inspection done right you need to hire the same guy 10 times.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
I have seen many MS66BN Lincoln's and own several 64 and 65 BN's.
Not one of my 64s look any where near as good as this 1917. I don't think many 66's look as nice.
As with the case of the graders, no heavy magnification is needed to see how nice this coin is. I was truly baffled by the 64 grade.
The coin is not mine, but I have had it in my possession for a couple of months, minus the few weeks PCGS was busy grading it for the second time.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>
<< <i> If you want an essentially true grade of any coin, send it in 5 times, toss out the high and low, and then take the average. An alternative method is you can stop if the same grade is received 2 out of 2, 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 4 tries (pluses and other attributes don't count.....just the numerical grade). >>
This is making me laugh! Now that I am thinking about it.
Imagine hiring a house inspector for $300
And he comes to your house but is only there for 15 seconds because he has a lot of houses on his schedule for the day
Sorry he missed the termite damage, leaky roof, rotted rafters, and foundation cracks, but what did you expect? He did the best he could in 15 seconds!
If you want your house inspection done right you need to hire the same guy 10 times (and spend $3000) ... then in sum total he will spend a few minutes looking at your house.
Eventually if you hire the guy enough times, you will get a complete inspection. >>
Hire a gun to appraise a house, most of the time they ask me how to write it for. I am paying them, but they need to arrive at the numbers I need to make the deal work. lol
WL- I thought the coins posted you had in hand, after reading what coppercolor wrote I could see how the grades could differ. From the pics provided I originally liked the bottom coin. I am bored today, maybe they flip the coin they are grading, heads it is a 66 or tails it is a 64, or spin it on the table top or heaven forbid get a fingerprint on the coin they are grading after a quick lunch at KFC. The captain graded from anacs in the past ask him how much time they got to look at a lowly brown penny.
That said I need to send in my 1955/1955 au58 Lincoln cent in for a reholder, I do not know if I want it graded, before lunch, after lunch, on a Monday, on a Friday..... Can you check those boxes on the submission form? I want to set it free and see what it comes back but my feelings would be hurt if it bodybagged the first time thru. It is also in the wrong casket ( ngc)
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i> If you want an essentially true grade of any coin, send it in 5 times, toss out the high and low, and then take the average. An alternative method is you can stop if the same grade is received 2 out of 2, 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 4 tries (pluses and other attributes don't count.....just the numerical grade). >>
This is making me laugh! Now that I am thinking about it.
Imagine hiring a house inspector for $300
And he comes to your house but is only there for 15 seconds because he has a lot of houses on his schedule for the day
Sorry he missed the termite damage, leaky roof, rotted rafters, and foundation cracks, but what did you expect? He did the best he could in 15 seconds!
If you want your house inspection done right you need to hire the same guy 10 times (and spend $3000) ... then in sum total he will spend a few minutes looking at your house.
Eventually if you hire the guy enough times, you will get a complete inspection. >>
While the 64 grade does seem odd from the picture, you seem to be forgetting that the grading services are providing subjective opinions. It isn't comparable to a home inspector. It's more like hiring a home appraiser who gives an estimate of the value of your home.
<< <i>
<< <i> If you want an essentially true grade of any coin, send it in 5 times, toss out the high and low, and then take the average. An alternative method is you can stop if the same grade is received 2 out of 2, 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 4 tries (pluses and other attributes don't count.....just the numerical grade). >>
This is making me laugh! Now that I am thinking about it.
Imagine hiring a house inspector for $300
And he comes to your house but is only there for 15 seconds because he has a lot of houses on his schedule for the day
Sorry he missed the termite damage, leaky roof, rotted rafters, and foundation cracks, but what did you expect? He did the best he could in 15 seconds!
If you want your house inspection done right you need to hire the same guy 10 times (and spend $3000) ... then in sum total he will spend a few minutes looking at your house.
Eventually if you hire the guy enough times, you will get a complete inspection. >>
You wanna rewrite that? I'll review it.
Eric
"Pay not attention to the man behind the curtain..."
2) I have not seen any copper of any series with those kind of spots get into a 6 holder
3) When it comes to comparing coins, you must be able to see them in hand. Ie., you can't a feel for the eye appeal of a toned coin unless you see it. ]
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Photo 2 robec
- In uncirculated grading, LUSTER plays a big part in the final grade.
- Luster is NEVER entirely captured in photos. In fact, in order to get a good photo, it's often necessary to adjust lighting and angles to remove the luster.
From Coppercolor's first hand experience with these coins, that appears to be a good portion of the difference of opinion between the boards, and the graders.
Cool thread that me and coppercolor both own one of these coins. If you would like to see the 64 in hand PM me and I will send it to you.
Jeff if you would like to see it in hand maybe we could do a swap to view them side by side? Could be a learning experience for me.
Here is a link to a gtg on this coin. It also includes a video.
Ignore my crappy pic in the thread it will do you no good
Also I believe in hand what some percieve as coin care is simply great luster
1917 GTG with video
<< <i>
The coin is not mine, but I have had it in my possession for a couple of months, minus the few weeks PCGS was busy grading it for the second time.
q]
If possession is 9/10th's law I may be in trouble.
"Hey Coppertoning, I'm so sorry you got this result particularly since you were anticipating something very different.
You may remember I made a run at acquiring your 1916, which I believe has authentic color, but I didn't make a run at this one.
Among many other factors, PCGS seems to shy away from Lincolns which flash silver "color". Possibly what other called "wet"
I still find the surfaces very very pleasing to look at and I was rooting for you...... Will you try again? I'm never shy about getting a second.... second opinion
My final thoughts, PCGS was shy on this coins' grade because:
1) suspected surface treatment, this alone would limit the grade to 64. It's akin to an overdipped coin, they still grade it, but it maxes out.
2) Strong woodgrain toning. It's very evident in Robec's image but not in Phil's. That woodgrain would be very pronounced under PCGs's lights. PCGS looks very unfavorably on woodgrain toning and could limit grade to 64 or 65.
3) Brown circular dull spot right on the focal point of the face (I recently had an 18D with frosty blue surfaces max out at 64RB because of a similar area)
4) Silvery color
And I could be wrong about all of this but I'm not guessing, i'm just relaying my experience after 9 years of submitting boocoo toned lincolns to PCGS.
Interesting experiment.
Lance.
- Jim
<< <i>I drink coffee at a small store every morning, seems we grade most of the women that come thru. Most of the time we can not agree on the same grade but we only get 5 seconds of face time. ( the other 20 seconds....) >>
This sounds like a good time to me!
<< <i>Here are smaller images that will fit on your screen better
There must be some fundamental piece of knowledge that I just don't have to explain this.
If anyone knows, please post as I would like to learn.
MS66+BN
MS64BN
If you look closely you will see that Lincoln's tie is knotted more neatly in the first coin and his beard is better trimmed.
Maybe if they were cracked and sent in they both might change and I would be surprised if the top one got a 66+ again.
I remain confident in my stance that grading in the mint state level is over rated.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Also, as an aside, I find the statement "the only way to get an accurate grade is to submit the same piece multiple times" to be utterly preposterous. I'm sure the TPGs love customers with that mindset though. Ka-ching.
One resub occasionally to correct a mistake- sure, I can see that happening, although I'd be annoyed about it.
That said, if it actually did take 5 tries to get a grade right then that would tell me that either the TPG was incompetent, understaffed or both.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Also, as an aside, I find the statement "the only way to get an accurate grade is to submit the same piece multiple times" to be utterly preposterous. I'm sure the TPGs love customers with that mindset though. Ka-ching.
One resub occasionally to correct a mistake- sure, I can see that happening, although I'd be annoyed about it. That said, if it actually did take 5 tries to get a grade right then that would tell me that either the TPG was incompetent, understaffed or both. >>
I agree it is preposterous. But, that doesn't mean it isn't true. How would you design a TPG to ensure >90% accuracy and repeatability while still making a decent operational profit? I think the current acc/rep #'s are in the
65-75% range. Is that good enough for the mint state/proof 60-70 range where coins often range in price from $500 to $50,000? And even when the grade is right the first time, it doesn't stop future owners of the coin from
trying for a yet higher grade even if it occurs only once in 5, 10, or 20 submissions. A TPG that was >90% accurate/repeatable certainly wouldn't get the "repeat" coins like they currently do. To those that say NGC doesn't
under-grade,....I had 75% of an entire shipment of choice/gem seated and bust coins come back about 1 grade lower than I had purchased them at auction. I knew it wasn't right. I sent all the "losers" back for another
look after cracking them out. Every coin came back a higher grade. One of them came back 2 pts higher (an 1882 seated half that jumped from MS65 to MS67). Good thing too on that seated half because I had paid solid
MS66 money for that coin in spirited auction bidding. My favorite coin story is the MS64 $10 Lib I cracked out and got 2 No Grades and a MS66 on 3 tries. So after 4 submissions on that coin what was the real grade? I guess
if I follow my thumb-rule of tossing out high and low, the real grade would be "no grade." It probably needed a 5th attempt to settle whether it was a NG coin or a gradeable coin. Fwiw I did follow my system and "quit" on that
$10 Lib after 2 submissions (64, NG, NG). It met the 2 out of 3 "rule." The coin was consigned to auction raw just to get rid of it. The auction house resubmitted it w/o my knowledge. They received the 66 on the next attempt.
I agree...."grading" can be preposterous. We forget one grading event determines nothing other than the first data point or the last. It's just an opinion. I can't figure out how you can get graders that individually can be accurate
75% of the time....but 3 of them together (100% - (.25 x .25 x .25)) = 98.4%....... doesn't really improve the accuracy or repeatability.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
I think the above link is worth reading.
Some exerpts:
"Spots
Spots on gold coins, spots on copper coins, and "milk spots" on silver coins are not really part of eye appeal, but they are part of the grade and grade deductions are made similar to those made for marks or hairlines. In all three instances above we have minimum/maximum grade guidelines for spots."
"Amazing eye appeal can add up to a full point to the "technical" grade."
I've kind of stepped back on this one since I'm not a Lincoln guy. But to be honest, I have MS-65's that have more marks that the poor MS-66 under attack here. Add in what seems to be pretty significant eye appeal, and first hand information about very strong Luster, and I don't have a problem with it being an MS-66. *shrug*
(Whether YOU want to buy it at the assigned grade, of course, is always an open question with any coin. Not knocking anyone's issue with buying the coin...but I don't think the grade is wildly out of line).
The REAL question is the MS-64....and the questionable color may be all you need to know there.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012