I always tell people to buy the coin they like, in the holder they like, and then leave it be.
And do yourself a favor. Dovetailing into Roadrunner's most recent comment on this topic, buy coins which are solid for the grade, not shot coins. You will pay a stiff premium for the latter, and with inconsistent grading re liner coins (I can give a few anecdotal examples of this myself), you may or may not get your upgrade / and your money back on these coins when you sell them.
Imo, there are very few pedigrees which are worth paying a premium for a particular coin. I did this once and will not repeat the mistake.
Lastly, the more a particular coin is hyped, the faster I run away from it.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I always tell people to buy the coin they like, in the holder they like, and then leave it be.
And do yourself a favor. Dovetailing into Roadrunner's most recent comment on this topic, buy coins which are solid for the grade, not shot coins. You will pay a stiff premium for the latter, and with inconsistent grading re liner coins (I can give a few anecdotal examples of this myself), you may or may not get your upgrade / and your money back on these coins when you sell them.
Imo, there are very few pedigrees which are worth paying a premium for a particular coin. I did this once and will not repeat the mistake.
Lastly, the more a particular coin is hyped, the faster I run away from it. >>
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
but if we are paying between $20 and $60 for a profressional grade, should we get more than 15 seconds of their time?
At least I would want them to take enough time to get the grade right ... or at least close to being right.
Let me see ... how about a quick back of the envelope calculation ...
Let's say the average grading fee is $40 ... for 15 seconds of a graders time
That's $160 for a minute of their time
That works out to $9,600 per hour of their time (that's $76,800 per day or an annual salary of $18.5 million) ... I realize that it doesn't really work like that.
But it seems like they could spend a bit more time than 15 seconds if it would improve the consistency or correctness ??? >>
Grading is only an opinion and regardless of what PCGS says, it's usually the 1st opinion that counts since this is human nature regardless of profession.
Tell me a coin is a specific grade and I'll either agree with you (the default since you ARE, after all, a professional) or tell you why it isn't. And since I only have a couple of seconds, I'll more than likely default to your opinion regardless of what I "feel".
These folks look at thousands of coins a day and the above is the ONLY rational explanation I can offer given what "I have Seen".
The typical response to the obvious is that, mistakes are made as is true with any large organization. But...............the first thought by the submitter is that there are only a few graders. Right?
Wrong, there is a group of graders and not every coin gets seen by the "same" grader or group of 2 graders upon resubmission. As such, opinions vary. Opinions, on the other hand, are susceptible to surroundings, mood, time of day, etc.
This morning, given the fact that I just got raked over the coals on some coins I graded a month ago that the public is screaming "over-graded", I'm going to be "very" selective on what I grade and how high I grade it.
This afternoon, given the fact that I've just received praise from my supervisor or manager over the quality of my opinions AND I just had a great lunch over at Joe's Mexican Emporium, I'll be a bit freer with my opinions. I'm in a good mood and all these coins look great!
Professional or not, people have good days and people have bad days but the bottom line is that, it's only an opinion which has been rendered to facilitate the value/quality of a coin for either resale or collecting. Usually, resale.
To me, the top coin was given a grade boost (i.e. value boost) because of the toning and the current toning craze. The bottom coin, on the other hand, appears to be an older grade done prior to the toning craziness. Plus, the toning itself appears to be less "in your face" type of toning. A resubmission "might" garner a 65+ but remember, both coin are BN. Had they been RB or RD, I'm certain that the grades would have been different simply because "grading, as an opinion, dictates what the coin "SHPULD" sell for on the open market and it is not ALWAYS a statement on "technical quality".
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
It rarely happens, but I agree with Dimeman on this one.
My current coin collecting interests are: (1) British coins 1838-1970 in XF-AU-UNC, (2) silver type coins in XF-AU with that classic medium gray coloration and exceptional eye appeal.
This is a pretty interesting thread. I love it when the owners can provide a little more history.
The comments about luster being difficult to evaluate from a photo are important. When grading from a photo, it's almost universal to focus on hits and surface irregularities. One static view cannot demonstrate luster, the character of the coin when rotated under light, the actual eye appeal, or flash of the coin. From my experience photographing coins it's easy enough to make a 64 look like a super-gem and easy to make a 67 look pretty horrible. Every coin has flaws and the correct lighting can hide or exaggerate them.
More than one grader had the coin in their hands, raw, and formed their opinions. Don't get too excited about the time a professional grader spends on each coin. A novice can spend 20 minutes looking at a knee x-ray and miss everything while a musculo-skeletal radiologist can spend 10 seconds and make a better (and perfectly accurate) assessment in those 10 seconds. If you pay attention and are properly trained, you'll be pretty good at it too after you see 100,000 coins. Is it a science? Nope. Are they perfectly consistent? Obviously not. Coins can change in their holders too, especially copper.
Until the end of time it will always be possible to select two graded coins, put the photos up next to each other, and see what appears to be an egregious grading mistake. It's the nature of the game.
I don't know Lincolns, but the bottom coin looks very nice, and I see the issues with the top coin. I'm guessing in-hand, the assigned grades would make more sense. I could be wrong.
Maybe it went like this:
Top coin: Awesome luster, perfect strike, deep pleasing original color..... I want to give it a 67, but just can't due to the hits. It's absolutely perfect in every other way......... therefore 66+. Bottom coin: Luster is average, perfect strike, color & surfaces look sort of strange, really clean surfaces......... I'm comfortable at 64, but not higher.
And do yourself a favor. Dovetailing into Roadrunner's most recent comment on this topic, buy coins which are solid for the grade, not shot coins. You will pay a stiff premium for the latter, and with inconsistent grading re liner coins (I can give a few anecdotal examples of this myself), you may or may not get your upgrade / and your money back on these coins when you sell them.
This is the exact opposite of the philosophy that I have used in my collecting. I believe that quality is a continuum and prices/grades tend to be discreet jumps ... therefore the lower grade on the holder tends to hold back the price on a very high quality for the grade coin. I personally believe that these are the best bargains in all of numismatics - far better than a discount for a low quality for the grade coin.
Understand that I don't know anything about grading Lincoln Cents but I'd imagine that the first coin has been determined to be an unmolested survivor that'd colored nicely and has luster and "pop" out the wazoo (technical term) which absolutely warrants an MS 66 BN or Ms 66 + BN. designation.
Then, with the second coin there's at least the theory that it's toning is suspect (hence the body bag) and combine that with the orange peeled appearance of the left obverse field and you get a net graded coin.
Could it be this simple?
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
<< <i>Understand that I don't know anything about grading Lincoln Cents but I'd imagine that the first coin has been determined to be an unmolested survivor that'd colored nicely and has luster and "pop" out the wazoo (technical term) which absolutely warrants an MS 66 BN or Ms 66 + BN. designation.
Then, with the second coin there's at least the theory that it's toning is suspect (hence the body bag) and combine that with the orange peeled appearance of the left obverse field and you get a net graded coin.
Could it be this simple? >>
The second coin is not net graded, it is graded MS64BN.
<< <i>Understand that I don't know anything about grading Lincoln Cents but I'd imagine that the first coin has been determined to be an unmolested survivor that'd colored nicely and has luster and "pop" out the wazoo (technical term) which absolutely warrants an MS 66 BN or Ms 66 + BN. designation.
Then, with the second coin there's at least the theory that it's toning is suspect (hence the body bag) and combine that with the orange peeled appearance of the left obverse field and you get a net graded coin.
" I believe that quality is a continuum and prices/grades tend to be discreet jumps ... therefore the lower grade on the holder tends to hold back the price on a very high quality for the grade coin. I personally believe that these are the best bargains in all of numismatics - far better than a discount for a low quality for the grade coin."
I totally agree with TDN's view.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
When I see such a grading differential, and that grading differential is totally reversed from my own opinion (the lower coin should have been the 66+), I tend to just listen and hopefully learn something. I have listened and have yet to learn anything. The lower coin is very clean with no nicks and gouges, the 66+ coins has way too many to be much over a 64. So, now we are down to grading the toning perhaps, or the question of the authenticity of the toning and luster. The lower 64 coin has a very nice bluish toning while the 66+ coin has toning that is variegated enough that it's toning is believable. But if you look on the obverse of the 66+, it does have blue toning identical to the 64, which has that same toning over the entire surface of the coin, suggesting that it may have occured after being dipped many years ago. But if that same toning exists on the 66+, then one might conclude that a grading error has occured.
I think that the MS64BN coin is deserving of TWO gold beans.
<< <i>And do yourself a favor. Dovetailing into Roadrunner's most recent comment on this topic, buy coins which are solid for the grade, not shot coins. You will pay a stiff premium for the latter, and with inconsistent grading re liner coins (I can give a few anecdotal examples of this myself), you may or may not get your upgrade / and your money back on these coins when you sell them.
This is the exact opposite of the philosophy that I have used in my collecting. I believe that quality is a continuum and prices/grades tend to be discreet jumps ... therefore the lower grade on the holder tends to hold back the price on a very high quality for the grade coin. I personally believe that these are the best bargains in all of numismatics - far better than a discount for a low quality for the grade coin. >>
Knowing Elcontador he certainly didn't say anything about buying "low quality for the grade" coins. He's of the belief that you buy the most solid coin for the grade you can (say a 65.5 or 65.6) without the exorbitant premium that a pedigreed coin or a 65.7, 65.8, or 65.9 coin might bring. I think we can all agree that avoiding low end coins is a good thing....unless they are priced at next lower grade money....then they might be a great deal. It's a good thing the lower grade holder is keeping that 65.6 or even a 65.7 (65+) from upgrading. Because once it's upgraded now you have a low end coin that many buyers won't even pay attention to. In the "new" coin market I don't see holders holding back PQ or + coins one bit. If the coin is nice, stickered, in the right TPG's holder, etc....it tends to bring strong money. The huge premium that low pop + coins currently bring could be one of the biggest traps ever as those pops will probably swell in the future (think MS68+ common Morgan dollars or even a 67+ seated or Barber half). When there are enough of those out there and the premiums are not as obscene, then they will be allowed to "graduate" to next grade up.
I would certainly agree that if you can get wonderfully PQ (or +) candidate coins for little or no premium, then they are indeed some of the best bargains out there. Shot coins when bought at no premium have a been a near zero risk game since 1986. I don't consider + coins as any different than "shot" coins. Shot coins have always brought a premium...though in many cases nowhere near the current posted prices for low pop + coins.
<< <i>And do yourself a favor. Dovetailing into Roadrunner's most recent comment on this topic, buy coins which are solid for the grade, not shot coins. You will pay a stiff premium for the latter, and with inconsistent grading re liner coins (I can give a few anecdotal examples of this myself), you may or may not get your upgrade / and your money back on these coins when you sell them.
This is the exact opposite of the philosophy that I have used in my collecting. I believe that quality is a continuum and prices/grades tend to be discreet jumps ... therefore the lower grade on the holder tends to hold back the price on a very high quality for the grade coin. I personally believe that these are the best bargains in all of numismatics - far better than a discount for a low quality for the grade coin. >>
But Bruce, you focus on the absolute top end of the numismatics market. The coins you typically seek are often so scarce, that what a particular coin is worth can depend on whether two different people want said coin on a given day. Furthermore, for the material that interests you, only people who know how to grade are interested in this material, and for these kind of coins, the coins will sell themselves. Ergo, if a TPG screws up and puts a coin which is a 6 into a 7 holder, you probably aren't going to buy it.
Furthermore, I NEVER said that I EVER was interested in a low quality for the grade coin. There is a big difference between a coin which is solid for the grade and a coin which is low end for the grade.
For most of us, the term 'quality' is a subjective one. Paying a stiff premium for a shot coin for most us is a loser's game, because the coin won't upgrade, and when it comes time to sell, we will have a hard time getting our money out of said coin. I know of what I speak.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Paying a stiff premium for a shot coin is often a losing game because unless that coin can get stickered, or is like a pop 1, 2 or 3 coin, it's going to be avoided like the plague as a freshly made low end, C quality coin. That game has lost most of its mojo with the advent of CAC. We now often see 66+ coins bring as much as low end 67 coins (same company holder). And the lack of a sticker on more expensive/low end coins has certainly affected their liquidity. The 66+ coin has much more interest than the low end 67 coin as a rule. TDN is correct about the grading/pricing continuum. The pricing continuum was nearly absent from the market in 1987-1989 because the holder's grade pretty much determined the price to within about 10% either way. Today, we have frequently swings of 50-100% between coins in the same holder. And the retailers survive today by saying my coin is more pq than your pq coin so it's worth an extra 15%. I'd almost call the pricing from 25 years ago "step pricing." Had we advanced since? It's debatable. MJ had it right when stating that the MS/PF point system is overrated.
<< <i>When I see such a grading differential, and that grading differential is totally reversed from my own opinion (the lower coin should have been the 66+), I tend to just listen and hopefully learn something. I have listened and have yet to learn anything. The lower coin is very clean with no nicks and gouges, the 66+ coins has way too many to be much over a 64. So, now we are down to grading the toning perhaps, or the question of the authenticity of the toning and luster. The lower 64 coin has a very nice bluish toning while the 66+ coin has toning that is variegated enough that it's toning is believable. But if you look on the obverse of the 66+, it does have blue toning identical to the 64, which has that same toning over the entire surface of the coin, suggesting that it may have occured after being dipped many years ago. But if that same toning exists on the 66+, then one might conclude that a grading error has occured.
I think that the MS64BN coin is deserving of TWO gold beans.
OINK >>
I don't agree at all but also believe it's a fair debate. Please take one more look, the one thing I can assure you is that these two coins don't have the same toning and look nothing alike in hand:
<< <i>I've read Coppercolor's synopsis about his history with the "66+" coin but I guess I missed the part explaining the obvious corrosion spots on the reverse. No way does that coin 6 unless a)someone goofed the label or b) the spots grew on it post-slabbing (which makes me wonder if the surfaces/toning are original).
Also, as an aside, I find the statement "the only way to get an accurate grade is to submit the same piece multiple times" to be utterly preposterous. I'm sure the TPGs love customers with that mindset though. Ka-ching. One resub occasionally to correct a mistake- sure, I can see that happening, although I'd be annoyed about it.
That said, if it actually did take 5 tries to get a grade right then that would tell me that either the TPG was incompetent, understaffed or both. >>
Or maybe the other 4 grades were correct? 5 times and 1 is "correct" = wrong 80% of the time? If the other 4 grades were spread more than a point or so (even that...) then yeah, seems a problem.
After reading the last four pages I'd like to comment that I'd take the top coin all week long in any grade if I had to pic from the two.
Bottom coin from pic and video seems processed although I wouldn't run from it. Seems market acceptable, just that PCGS would grade with its pocketbook and assess its value at the 64 level.
With that said, from what I can see from here, I could see them both as being 65s although they are really hard to compare. From my experience reading online pictures I suspect that the top coin has something special in hand with or without the + grade and the flyspeck corrosion and that the bottom coin is a little more photogenic.
Coppercolor has first hand experience with both coins and seems like an expert on these. I believe what he says about these coins. The casual collector who is not as well informed will always pick the prettier one even if it has been doctored. Kind of like the newbie with an MS62 claiming it is better than MS65's because it has less marks and misses the point that his MS62 has no luster from being cleaned.
Just for fun ... I added for consideration ALL the Lincoln Cents graded by PCGS as MS66BN (dated from 1909 through 1940) that I could find that were photographed by Phil Arnold (same camera, same lighting, same technique so comparisons are easier).
It's interesting seeing the spread in color in the group of 66BN's. Most of these coins I find stunningly beautiful -- and it's interesting trying to figure out the criteria used for grading. My favorite coin in the group of MS66BN's is probably the 1916 for the hammered strike, lack of marks/hits, and stunning color. Two more favorites are the 1910 and the 1917-D.
It's amazing how few PCGS-graded MS66BN's there are in the Lincoln series. I highlighted in red the "MS66BN block" in the PCGS Population report below.
There are only 89 PCGS MS66BN Lincolns, only 1 PCGS MS66+BN, and only 2 PCGS MS67BN Lincolns known. That's a total of 92 high-grade (66 or higher) BN color class (wheat-backed) Lincoln Cents out of nearly 330,000 (wheat-backed) Lincolns graded -- talk about a tiny population.
I didn't find a single MS66BN dated in the 1920's and I didn't find any MS67BN's either for any date before 1940.
Note that the highest graded coin in this entire pre-1940 group is the 1917 MS66+BN coin that started this thread. So PCGS considers that top coin the "cream of the crop" in the Mint State BN color class for Lincoln Cents in this early pre-1940 period.
These two are the only PCGS-graded MS67BN Lincoln Cents in the entire series. Total slab population is shown in the gold highlighted box below ...
However both of these examples are dated in the late 1950's (in the Mint Set toning era) -- so it's more like comparing apples and oranges (when comparing these to the coins above)
<< <i>Coppercolor has first hand experience with both coins and seems like an expert on these. I believe what he says about these coins. The casual collector who is not as well informed will always pick the prettier one even if it has been doctored. Kind of like the newbie with an MS62 claiming it is better than MS65's because it has less marks and misses the point that his MS62 has no luster from being cleaned. >>
Just to clarify.
Only me and bob aka robec have held the 64 in hand.
Coppercolor only has the same images as the rest of the crowd
Sipping my morning coffee, looking at the beautiful sunlight on Pikes Peak, and reflecting on how I am so glad that I do not have to grade coins for a living anymore!
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
I want to mention I currently own about 35 of the 89 PCGS MS66BN Lincolns including 7 of the 12 that Wingedliberty posted.
I've "made" or graded 14 PCGS 66BN lincolns from raw coins that I've found or been given or purchased since 1994.
In my spare time, I daydream about brown colorful copper, I plot ways to find more, I scour the internet, network with friends and dealers. Love these damn brown things! Love 'em !!
Sorry for the selfless promotion and resume'. But someone mentioned I might have some experience with these and I would say I'm gaining experience every day.
<< <i>I want to mention I currently own about 35 of the 89 PCGS MS66BN Lincolns including 7 of the 12 that Wingedliberty posted.
I've "made" or graded 14 PCGS 66BN lincolns from raw coins that I've found or been given or purchased since 1994.
In my spare time, I daydream about brown colorful copper, I plot ways to find more, I scour the internet, network with friends and dealers. Love these damn brown things! Love 'em !!
Sorry for the selfless promotion and resume'. But someone mentioned I might have some experience with these and I would say I'm gaining experience every day. >>
CopperColor ... What a FEAT!! Gathering up nearly 40% of that rare population is incredible! Kudos.
I'm sorry Wingedliberty it's private but it's named "Coyote Ugly" in the colorless Lincoln registry (1909-1958).
The name occurred to me a few months ago when I learned a Lincoln I thought was indredibly beautiful was not appreciated by the consensus. This particular thread reminds me of that, only in the fact that people are picking minor attributes of a coin from a large flat image and using them to make strong statements against the coin. Luckily I don't collect for other's enjoyment, but instead for mine.
It's really hard to know who is who on the boards, and I don't know the experience level of many of the participants with copper so I have decided just to enjoy the debate and offer what I'm confident in.
<<I don't agree at all but also believe it's a fair debate. Please take one more look, the one thing I can assure you is that these two coins don't have the same toning and look nothing alike in hand: >>
The 64BN the OP posted was a Phil Arnold image and the one you are comparing is a robec image. There is a big difference and robec's image of the coin does not show any of the bluish toning.
When I suggested that the two coins had toning similarities, I was referring to the 66+ coin's area in front of Lincoln's mouth as being very similar to the bluish toning as the 64 BN coin in the OP. I also see much similarity between the toning of the 66BN 1914 WL posted. But you are right in saying that they look totally different in hand. Photos can be very deceiving.
<< <i>I'm sorry Wingedliberty it's private but it's named "Coyote Ugly" in the colorless Lincoln registry (1909-1958). >>
Jeff, why would you not make the viewing of your set public? I know you've scoured many other sets looking for coins you would hopefully be able to add to your set. Are you trying to prevent others from doing the same?
Seems strange to me that the key to getting a 67 Brown grade is having more "red" and coloration than the next guy (ie more important than strike, luster, and marks).
Those last 2 coins graded 67 Brown look anything but "brown" to me. RB would be far more accurate. One of them is at least 30-50% red. Some of those 66 BN cents look to be RB as well.
<< <i>Seems strange to me that the key to getting a 67 Brown grade is having more "red" and coloration than the next guy (ie more important than strike, luster, and marks). Those last 2 coins graded 67 Brown look anything but "brown" to me. RB would be far more accurate. One of them is at least 30-50% red. Some of those 66 BN cents look to be RB as well. >>
I agree it's a confusing point.
Here is what a full "red" (RD) copper is supposed to look like (this is an MS67+RD).
Forget about the word "red" for a minute and think of that RD color class as 95% or more mint fresh copper color. The RB color class is for copper coins with between 5% and 95% that original copper color. The official definition of a BN copper is less than 5% original mint fresh copper color.
So RD is really Copper ... and BN can be actual brown or semi-darkened copper or any color in the rainbow (not necessarily brown).
Honestly I think better color class names would have been MC (for mostly copper), PC (for party copper), and LC (for little copper) rather than using the terms Red and Brown.
Posted below are the two coins graded MS67BN. So it becomes a judgement call by the grader if the color has "turned" enough or darkened enough to no longer qualify for a full RD or RB.
That being said, could the 1957-D been called a RB? Probably, due to the reverse. It would not have surprised me if that 1957-D came back RB. It became a judgement call by the grader to call it brown (BN) because they felt it had darkened enough from the original minted color.
I also think that sometimes a grader will observe how much light a copper coin will catch ... if it's a darker copper color and not flashy (not bright) they might BN it.
In spite of this, I have seen a number of slabbed coins with seemingly, the incorrect color designation, calling coins that I thought were BN, RB ... and coins that I thought were RB, BN.
Finally, the CoinFacts' screen capture below shows a few other Brown (BN) 1957D's showing similar coppery reverses that darkened a bit ... so it's a common occurrence for the graders to call toners that look like this BN -- even though the reverses on these coins show substantial marginally darkened coppery color.
Ultimately, just like grading, the color classification is a judgement call and subject to the same type of subjective variation.
<< <i>I'm sorry Wingedliberty it's private but it's named "Coyote Ugly" in the colorless Lincoln registry (1909-1958). >>
Jeff, why would you not make the viewing of your set public? I know you've scoured many other sets looking for coins you would hopefully be able to add to your set. Are you trying to prevent others from doing the same? >>
Great question.
I'm down to few enough holes in the collection that someone could hold me hostage if they had the right coin, one that was unique for example in color or grade, and they knew it was a hole in my collection. All it took was one time and I learned my lesson. A little bit of anonymity can go a long way. Plus I was worried about security. But mostly is the first. Believe me it gave me great pleasure to display my coins and I'll open it back up once I'm done or nearly done.
<< <i>Seems strange to me that the key to getting a 67 Brown grade is having more "red" and coloration than the next guy (ie more important than strike, luster, and marks).
Those last 2 coins graded 67 Brown look anything but "brown" to me. RB would be far more accurate. One of them is at least 30-50% red. Some of those 66 BN cents look to be RB as well. >>
It could also just be the whims of some graders, a new finalizer, NGC graders coming to PCGS (NGC grades 67 BN coins more regularly)
OR it could be that these mint set lincolns have a tan haze when turned away from the light, even often over the red areas.
I don't think you're clueless at all. You've just picked a couple of bad examples to compare as your basis for this thread. In the vast majority of cases, the 66+ will look like a 66+ and the 64 will look worse.
<<I'm down to few enough holes in the collection that someone could hold me hostage if they had the right coin, one that was unique for example in color or grade, and they knew it was a hole in my collection. All it took was one time and I learned my lesson. A little bit of anonymity can go a long way. Plus I was worried about security. But mostly is the first. Believe me it gave me great pleasure to display my coins and I'll open it back up once I'm done or nearly done. >> Perhaps it does not take a community to assemble a great coin collection.......
OINK I take little credit for much of my collection, instead, most of my best examples come with a story of who personally helped me get them. It's really cool and we touched on it in my "11 Years thread.
Robec, I want to mention that over the years I've formed relationships with other collectors on these boards with similar collections, I'll let them name themselves if they want. Some I've sold, I've given some away for Birthday gifts, and so there aren't a lot left unnacounted for that someone could pick off by contacting me through the registry. So I dont want to appear selfish or one way Jeff
Coins that have surfaces where the toning/color/originality comes into question (but that might not be definitely altered) are often "net graded". They are given a lower grade than the coin may look, but a grade that accounts for the fact that there may be an originality issue.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
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To keep things in perspective I would like to add that many high end coins have bagged before getting there and copper of color is definately no exception.
The 66+ has made nearly a 2 point jump (history prior is unknown) so is it really so outrageous to think the 64 could rather easily go 65+ or 66
The 64 has great surfaces and I am sure if the grader felt the coin was messed with no chance would be taken.
Luster seems to be a great concern on the 64. The ONLY 2 here that have seen the coin in hand and both of which collect high end toned BN copper to compare it to have stated the coin has great luster.
I do not no about the 66+ but I can tell you the 64 is undergraded it is that simple it happens.
<< <i>I'm sorry Wingedliberty it's private but it's named "Coyote Ugly" in the colorless Lincoln registry (1909-1958). >>
Jeff, why would you not make the viewing of your set public? I know you've scoured many other sets looking for coins you would hopefully be able to add to your set. Are you trying to prevent others from doing the same? >>
Great question.
I'm down to few enough holes in the collection that someone could hold me hostage if they had the right coin, one that was unique for example in color or grade, and they knew it was a hole in my collection. All it took was one time and I learned my lesson. A little bit of anonymity can go a long way. Plus I was worried about security. But mostly is the first. Believe me it gave me great pleasure to display my coins and I'll open it back up once I'm done or nearly done.
Jeff >>
With such a small body of Lincoln's graded 66 BN there isn't really that many to go around. Too little butter for the bread. How many full wheat sets could really be completed PCGS slabbed in these grades? Two? Three? Some of these coins are so beautiful they can be considered sets of their own IMO.
My comment is that ANYBODY holding one of these can hold us ALL hostage and for me I'm just happy I saw or was offered one first, then just snap it up. Not sure if another 1915 has been made but I'll never cough mine up. I love these things too and it warms my heart to see others enjoy what I've heard OINK describe as little jewels.
As far as the grading differences in this series and color designation, it is my belief you could undress all the NGC and PCGS 4s, 5s, and 6s mix them all up send them in raw and many of them would make each other's grades. Probably settling in the 65 range being the median price point to me. Yes, when a 6 is killer at loupe level and at arms length it can justify the premium as a wonder coin, but sadly many 65s are head and shoulders better than many 66s I've seen and the best value in the 65 BN Lincoln end of the pool for what it's worth.
Best of luck in your collecting goals. Maybe talking about this more will prompt more dealers to submit more examples as they cross their desks. I'm convinces that they exist, just not in slabs yet.
<< <i>To keep things in perspective I would like to add that many high end coins have bagged before getting there and copper of color is definately no exception.
The 66+ has made nearly a 2 point jump (history prior is unknown) so is it really so outrageous to think the 64 could rather easily go 65+ or 66
The 64 has great surfaces and I am sure if the grader felt the coin was messed with no chance would be taken.
Luster seems to be a great concern on the 64. The ONLY 2 here that have seen the coin in hand and both of which collect high end toned BN copper to compare it to have stated the coin has great luster.
I do not no about the 66+ but I can tell you the 64 is undergraded it is that simple it happens. >>
I can't think of many lincolns with surfaces as clean as your 1917. If a coin with that surface preservation were screaming original red it would be a wonder coin and I don't know what grade limit it would reach.
(Because you know your copper) I'm concluding this coin just needs to be seen in hand to discount the suspicions of alteration or tinkering.
Although I am not a Lincoln collector, nor can I claim to understand the grading 'process' - I have my own stories of the same coins going from slabbed to BB'd to down-graded, then up-graded. However, when I look at the two cents in question, the lower reverse rim of the 64 looks rather fuzzy, not a nice smooth, evenly crisp rim like the 66+ has got. I know that the graders do include the rims & edges when grading, since I have a few coins that I thought were gem come back ungraded for 'rim nicks'. Just a thought.......
Very interesting thread, it brings up a lot of aspects of the TPGS' roll in collecting, as well as their need to make a profit and protect their 'opinions' - I don't imagine that they want to pay out for overgrades too often.
Don't you know that it's worth every treasure on Earth to be young at heart? And as rich as you are, it's much better by far, to be young at heart!
Comments
And do yourself a favor. Dovetailing into Roadrunner's most recent comment on this topic, buy coins which are solid for the grade, not shot coins. You will pay a stiff premium for the latter, and with inconsistent grading re liner coins (I can give a few anecdotal examples of this myself), you may or may not get your upgrade / and your money back on these coins when you sell them.
Imo, there are very few pedigrees which are worth paying a premium for a particular coin. I did this once and will not repeat the mistake.
Lastly, the more a particular coin is hyped, the faster I run away from it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I always tell people to buy the coin they like, in the holder they like, and then leave it be.
And do yourself a favor. Dovetailing into Roadrunner's most recent comment on this topic, buy coins which are solid for the grade, not shot coins. You will pay a stiff premium for the latter, and with inconsistent grading re liner coins (I can give a few anecdotal examples of this myself), you may or may not get your upgrade / and your money back on these coins when you sell them.
Imo, there are very few pedigrees which are worth paying a premium for a particular coin. I did this once and will not repeat the mistake.
Lastly, the more a particular coin is hyped, the faster I run away from it. >>
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>PennyAnnie, I see what you are saying ...
but if we are paying between $20 and $60 for a profressional grade, should we get more than 15 seconds of their time?
At least I would want them to take enough time to get the grade right ... or at least close to being right.
Let me see ... how about a quick back of the envelope calculation ...
Let's say the average grading fee is $40 ... for 15 seconds of a graders time
That's $160 for a minute of their time
That works out to $9,600 per hour of their time (that's $76,800 per day or an annual salary of $18.5 million) ... I realize that it doesn't really work like that.
But it seems like they could spend a bit more time than 15 seconds if it would improve the consistency or correctness ??? >>
Grading is only an opinion and regardless of what PCGS says, it's usually the 1st opinion that counts since this is human nature regardless of profession.
Tell me a coin is a specific grade and I'll either agree with you (the default since you ARE, after all, a professional) or tell you why it isn't. And since I only have a couple of seconds, I'll more than likely default to your opinion regardless of what I "feel".
These folks look at thousands of coins a day and the above is the ONLY rational explanation I can offer given what "I have Seen".
The typical response to the obvious is that, mistakes are made as is true with any large organization. But...............the first thought by the submitter is that there are only a few graders. Right?
Wrong, there is a group of graders and not every coin gets seen by the "same" grader or group of 2 graders upon resubmission. As such, opinions vary.
Opinions, on the other hand, are susceptible to surroundings, mood, time of day, etc.
This morning, given the fact that I just got raked over the coals on some coins I graded a month ago that the public is screaming "over-graded", I'm going to be "very" selective on what I grade and how high I grade it.
This afternoon, given the fact that I've just received praise from my supervisor or manager over the quality of my opinions AND I just had a great lunch over at Joe's Mexican Emporium, I'll be a bit freer with my opinions. I'm in a good mood and all these coins look great!
Professional or not, people have good days and people have bad days but the bottom line is that, it's only an opinion which has been rendered to facilitate the value/quality of a coin for either resale or collecting. Usually, resale.
To me, the top coin was given a grade boost (i.e. value boost) because of the toning and the current toning craze. The bottom coin, on the other hand, appears to be an older grade done prior to the toning craziness. Plus, the toning itself appears to be less "in your face" type of toning. A resubmission "might" garner a 65+ but remember, both coin are BN. Had they been RB or RD, I'm certain that the grades would have been different simply because "grading, as an opinion, dictates what the coin "SHPULD" sell for on the open market and it is not ALWAYS a statement on "technical quality".
The name is LEE!
The comments about luster being difficult to evaluate from a photo are important. When grading from a photo, it's almost universal to focus on hits and surface irregularities. One static view cannot demonstrate luster, the character of the coin when rotated under light, the actual eye appeal, or flash of the coin. From my experience photographing coins it's easy enough to make a 64 look like a super-gem and easy to make a 67 look pretty horrible. Every coin has flaws and the correct lighting can hide or exaggerate them.
More than one grader had the coin in their hands, raw, and formed their opinions. Don't get too excited about the time a professional grader spends on each coin. A novice can spend 20 minutes looking at a knee x-ray and miss everything while a musculo-skeletal radiologist can spend 10 seconds and make a better (and perfectly accurate) assessment in those 10 seconds. If you pay attention and are properly trained, you'll be pretty good at it too after you see 100,000 coins. Is it a science? Nope. Are they perfectly consistent? Obviously not. Coins can change in their holders too, especially copper.
Until the end of time it will always be possible to select two graded coins, put the photos up next to each other, and see what appears to be an egregious grading mistake. It's the nature of the game.
I don't know Lincolns, but the bottom coin looks very nice, and I see the issues with the top coin. I'm guessing in-hand, the assigned grades would make more sense. I could be wrong.
Maybe it went like this:
Top coin: Awesome luster, perfect strike, deep pleasing original color..... I want to give it a 67, but just can't due to the hits. It's absolutely perfect in every other way......... therefore 66+.
Bottom coin: Luster is average, perfect strike, color & surfaces look sort of strange, really clean surfaces......... I'm comfortable at 64, but not higher.
This is the exact opposite of the philosophy that I have used in my collecting. I believe that quality is a continuum and prices/grades tend to be discreet jumps ... therefore the lower grade on the holder tends to hold back the price on a very high quality for the grade coin. I personally believe that these are the best bargains in all of numismatics - far better than a discount for a low quality for the grade coin.
Then, with the second coin there's at least the theory that it's toning is suspect (hence the body bag) and combine that with the orange peeled appearance of the left obverse field and you get a net graded coin.
Could it be this simple?
<< <i>Understand that I don't know anything about grading Lincoln Cents but I'd imagine that the first coin has been determined to be an unmolested survivor that'd colored nicely and has luster and "pop" out the wazoo (technical term) which absolutely warrants an MS 66 BN or Ms 66 + BN. designation.
Then, with the second coin there's at least the theory that it's toning is suspect (hence the body bag) and combine that with the orange peeled appearance of the left obverse field and you get a net graded coin.
Could it be this simple? >>
The second coin is not net graded, it is graded MS64BN.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>Understand that I don't know anything about grading Lincoln Cents but I'd imagine that the first coin has been determined to be an unmolested survivor that'd colored nicely and has luster and "pop" out the wazoo (technical term) which absolutely warrants an MS 66 BN or Ms 66 + BN. designation.
Then, with the second coin there's at least the theory that it's toning is suspect (hence the body bag) and combine that with the orange peeled appearance of the left obverse field and you get a net graded coin.
Could it be this simple? >>
I believe boiled down, it is.
I totally agree with TDN's view.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I think that the MS64BN coin is deserving of TWO gold beans.
OINK
<< <i>And do yourself a favor. Dovetailing into Roadrunner's most recent comment on this topic, buy coins which are solid for the grade, not shot coins. You will pay a stiff premium for the latter, and with inconsistent grading re liner coins (I can give a few anecdotal examples of this myself), you may or may not get your upgrade / and your money back on these coins when you sell them.
This is the exact opposite of the philosophy that I have used in my collecting. I believe that quality is a continuum and prices/grades tend to be discreet jumps ... therefore the lower grade on the holder tends to hold back the price on a very high quality for the grade coin. I personally believe that these are the best bargains in all of numismatics - far better than a discount for a low quality for the grade coin. >>
Knowing Elcontador he certainly didn't say anything about buying "low quality for the grade" coins. He's of the belief that you buy the most solid coin for the grade you can (say a 65.5 or 65.6) without the exorbitant premium that
a pedigreed coin or a 65.7, 65.8, or 65.9 coin might bring. I think we can all agree that avoiding low end coins is a good thing....unless they are priced at next lower grade money....then they might be a great deal. It's a good thing
the lower grade holder is keeping that 65.6 or even a 65.7 (65+) from upgrading. Because once it's upgraded now you have a low end coin that many buyers won't even pay attention to. In the "new" coin market I don't see
holders holding back PQ or + coins one bit. If the coin is nice, stickered, in the right TPG's holder, etc....it tends to bring strong money. The huge premium that low pop + coins currently bring could be one of the biggest traps ever
as those pops will probably swell in the future (think MS68+ common Morgan dollars or even a 67+ seated or Barber half). When there are enough of those out there and the premiums are not as obscene, then they will be
allowed to "graduate" to next grade up.
I would certainly agree that if you can get wonderfully PQ (or +) candidate coins for little or no premium, then they are indeed some of the best bargains out there. Shot coins when bought at no premium have a been a near zero
risk game since 1986. I don't consider + coins as any different than "shot" coins. Shot coins have always brought a premium...though in many cases nowhere near the current posted prices for low pop + coins.
<< <i>And do yourself a favor. Dovetailing into Roadrunner's most recent comment on this topic, buy coins which are solid for the grade, not shot coins. You will pay a stiff premium for the latter, and with inconsistent grading re liner coins (I can give a few anecdotal examples of this myself), you may or may not get your upgrade / and your money back on these coins when you sell them.
This is the exact opposite of the philosophy that I have used in my collecting. I believe that quality is a continuum and prices/grades tend to be discreet jumps ... therefore the lower grade on the holder tends to hold back the price on a very high quality for the grade coin. I personally believe that these are the best bargains in all of numismatics - far better than a discount for a low quality for the grade coin. >>
But Bruce, you focus on the absolute top end of the numismatics market. The coins you typically seek are often so scarce, that what a particular coin is worth can depend on whether two different people want said coin on a given day. Furthermore, for the material that interests you, only people who know how to grade are interested in this material, and for these kind of coins, the coins will sell themselves. Ergo, if a TPG screws up and puts a coin which is a 6 into a 7 holder, you probably aren't going to buy it.
Furthermore, I NEVER said that I EVER was interested in a low quality for the grade coin. There is a big difference between a coin which is solid for the grade and a coin which is low end for the grade.
For most of us, the term 'quality' is a subjective one. Paying a stiff premium for a shot coin for most us is a loser's game, because the coin won't upgrade, and when it comes time to sell, we will have a hard time getting our money out of said coin. I know of what I speak.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
has lost most of its mojo with the advent of CAC. We now often see 66+ coins bring as much as low end 67 coins (same company holder). And the lack of a sticker on more expensive/low end coins has certainly affected their
liquidity. The 66+ coin has much more interest than the low end 67 coin as a rule. TDN is correct about the grading/pricing continuum. The pricing continuum was nearly absent from the market in 1987-1989 because the holder's
grade pretty much determined the price to within about 10% either way. Today, we have frequently swings of 50-100% between coins in the same holder. And the retailers survive today by saying my coin is more pq than your
pq coin so it's worth an extra 15%. I'd almost call the pricing from 25 years ago "step pricing." Had we advanced since? It's debatable. MJ had it right when stating that the MS/PF point system is overrated.
<< <i>When I see such a grading differential, and that grading differential is totally reversed from my own opinion (the lower coin should have been the 66+), I tend to just listen and hopefully learn something. I have listened and have yet to learn anything. The lower coin is very clean with no nicks and gouges, the 66+ coins has way too many to be much over a 64. So, now we are down to grading the toning perhaps, or the question of the authenticity of the toning and luster. The lower 64 coin has a very nice bluish toning while the 66+ coin has toning that is variegated enough that it's toning is believable. But if you look on the obverse of the 66+, it does have blue toning identical to the 64, which has that same toning over the entire surface of the coin, suggesting that it may have occured after being dipped many years ago. But if that same toning exists on the 66+, then one might conclude that a grading error has occured.
I think that the MS64BN coin is deserving of TWO gold beans.
OINK >>
I don't agree at all but also believe it's a fair debate. Please take one more look, the one thing I can assure you is that these two coins don't have the same toning and look nothing alike in hand:
<< <i>I've read Coppercolor's synopsis about his history with the "66+" coin but I guess I missed the part explaining the obvious corrosion spots on the reverse. No way does that coin 6 unless a)someone goofed the label or b) the spots grew on it post-slabbing (which makes me wonder if the surfaces/toning are original).
Also, as an aside, I find the statement "the only way to get an accurate grade is to submit the same piece multiple times" to be utterly preposterous. I'm sure the TPGs love customers with that mindset though. Ka-ching.
One resub occasionally to correct a mistake- sure, I can see that happening, although I'd be annoyed about it.
That said, if it actually did take 5 tries to get a grade right then that would tell me that either the TPG was incompetent, understaffed or both. >>
Or maybe the other 4 grades were correct? 5 times and 1 is "correct" = wrong 80% of the time? If the other 4 grades were spread more than a point or so (even that...) then yeah, seems a problem.
Eric
Bottom coin from pic and video seems processed although I wouldn't run from it. Seems market acceptable, just that PCGS would grade with its pocketbook and assess its value at the 64 level.
With that said, from what I can see from here, I could see them both as being 65s although they are really hard to compare. From my experience reading online pictures I suspect that the top coin has something special in hand with or without the + grade and the flyspeck corrosion and that the bottom coin is a little more photogenic.
Don't mind me, carry on.....
AB
Eric
The second coin has a shiny orange texture that's suspicious for a bus strike and probably holds it back, still nice but questionable.
that I could find that were photographed by Phil Arnold (same camera, same lighting, same technique so comparisons are easier).
It's interesting seeing the spread in color in the group of 66BN's.
Most of these coins I find stunningly beautiful -- and it's interesting trying to figure out the criteria used for grading.
My favorite coin in the group of MS66BN's is probably the 1916 for the hammered strike, lack of marks/hits, and stunning color.
Two more favorites are the 1910 and the 1917-D.
It's amazing how few PCGS-graded MS66BN's there are in the Lincoln series.
I highlighted in red the "MS66BN block" in the PCGS Population report below.
There are only 89 PCGS MS66BN Lincolns, only 1 PCGS MS66+BN, and only 2 PCGS MS67BN Lincolns known.
That's a total of 92 high-grade (66 or higher) BN color class (wheat-backed) Lincoln Cents out of nearly 330,000 (wheat-backed) Lincolns graded -- talk about a tiny population.
I didn't find a single MS66BN dated in the 1920's and I didn't find any MS67BN's either for any date before 1940.
Note that the highest graded coin in this entire pre-1940 group is the 1917 MS66+BN coin that started this thread.
So PCGS considers that top coin the "cream of the crop" in the Mint State BN color class for Lincoln Cents in this early pre-1940 period.
MS66+BN
MS66BN
MS64BN
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
These two are the only PCGS-graded MS67BN Lincoln Cents in the entire series.
Total slab population is shown in the gold highlighted box below ...
However both of these examples are dated in the late 1950's (in the Mint Set toning era) --
so it's more like comparing apples and oranges (when comparing these to the coins above)
MS67BN
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
<< <i>Coppercolor has first hand experience with both coins and seems like an expert on these. I believe what he says about these coins. The casual collector who is not as well informed will always pick the prettier one even if it has been doctored. Kind of like the newbie with an MS62 claiming it is better than MS65's because it has less marks and misses the point that his MS62 has no luster from being cleaned. >>
Just to clarify.
Only me and bob aka robec have held the 64 in hand.
Coppercolor only has the same images as the rest of the crowd
I've "made" or graded 14 PCGS 66BN lincolns from raw coins that I've found or been given or purchased since 1994.
In my spare time, I daydream about brown colorful copper, I plot ways to find more, I scour the internet, network with friends and dealers. Love these damn brown things! Love 'em !!
Sorry for the selfless promotion and resume'. But someone mentioned I might have some experience with these and I would say I'm gaining experience every day.
<< <i>I want to mention I currently own about 35 of the 89 PCGS MS66BN Lincolns including 7 of the 12 that Wingedliberty posted.
I've "made" or graded 14 PCGS 66BN lincolns from raw coins that I've found or been given or purchased since 1994.
In my spare time, I daydream about brown colorful copper, I plot ways to find more, I scour the internet, network with friends and dealers. Love these damn brown things! Love 'em !!
Sorry for the selfless promotion and resume'. But someone mentioned I might have some experience with these and I would say I'm gaining experience every day. >>
CopperColor ... What a FEAT!!
Gathering up nearly 40% of that rare population is incredible!
Kudos.
What is your registry set link?
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
The name occurred to me a few months ago when I learned a Lincoln I thought was indredibly beautiful was not appreciated by the consensus. This particular thread reminds me of that, only in the fact that people are picking minor attributes of a coin from a large flat image and using them to make strong statements against the coin. Luckily I don't collect for other's enjoyment, but instead for mine.
It's really hard to know who is who on the boards, and I don't know the experience level of many of the participants with copper so I have decided just to enjoy the debate and offer what I'm confident in.
>>
The 64BN the OP posted was a Phil Arnold image and the one you are comparing is a robec image. There is a big difference and robec's image of the coin does not show any of the bluish toning.
When I suggested that the two coins had toning similarities, I was referring to the 66+ coin's area in front of Lincoln's mouth as being very similar to the bluish toning as the 64 BN coin in the OP. I also see much similarity between the toning of the 66BN 1914 WL posted. But you are right in saying that they look totally different in hand. Photos can be very deceiving.
OINK
I love that moniker.
Also I see (and agree) with what you're saying
Wasn't trying to be combative - just opinionated
<< <i>I'm sorry Wingedliberty it's private but it's named "Coyote Ugly" in the colorless Lincoln registry (1909-1958).
>>
Jeff, why would you not make the viewing of your set public? I know you've scoured many other sets looking for coins you would hopefully be able to add to your set. Are you trying to prevent others from doing the same?
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Those last 2 coins graded 67 Brown look anything but "brown" to me. RB would be far more accurate. One of them is at least 30-50% red. Some of those 66 BN cents look to be RB as well.
<< <i>Seems strange to me that the key to getting a 67 Brown grade is having more "red" and coloration than the next guy (ie more important than strike, luster, and marks). Those last 2 coins graded 67 Brown look anything but "brown" to me. RB would be far more accurate. One of them is at least 30-50% red. Some of those 66 BN cents look to be RB as well. >>
I agree it's a confusing point.
Here is what a full "red" (RD) copper is supposed to look like (this is an MS67+RD).
Forget about the word "red" for a minute and think of that RD color class as 95% or more mint fresh copper color.
The RB color class is for copper coins with between 5% and 95% that original copper color.
The official definition of a BN copper is less than 5% original mint fresh copper color.
So RD is really Copper ... and BN can be actual brown or semi-darkened copper or any color in the rainbow (not necessarily brown).
Honestly I think better color class names would have been MC (for mostly copper), PC (for party copper), and LC (for little copper) rather than using the terms Red and Brown.
Posted below are the two coins graded MS67BN. So it becomes a judgement call by the grader if the color has "turned" enough or darkened enough to no longer qualify for a full RD or RB.
That being said, could the 1957-D been called a RB? Probably, due to the reverse. It would not have surprised me if that 1957-D came back RB. It became a judgement call by the grader to call it brown (BN) because they felt it had darkened enough from the original minted color.
I also think that sometimes a grader will observe how much light a copper coin will catch ... if it's a darker copper color and not flashy (not bright) they might BN it.
In spite of this, I have seen a number of slabbed coins with seemingly, the incorrect color designation, calling coins that I thought were BN, RB ... and coins that I thought were RB, BN.
Finally, the CoinFacts' screen capture below shows a few other Brown (BN) 1957D's showing similar coppery reverses that darkened a bit ... so it's a common occurrence for the graders to call toners that look like this BN -- even though the reverses on these coins show substantial marginally darkened coppery color.
Ultimately, just like grading, the color classification is a judgement call and subject to the same type of subjective variation.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm sorry Wingedliberty it's private but it's named "Coyote Ugly" in the colorless Lincoln registry (1909-1958).
>>
Jeff, why would you not make the viewing of your set public? I know you've scoured many other sets looking for coins you would hopefully be able to add to your set. Are you trying to prevent others from doing the same? >>
Great question.
I'm down to few enough holes in the collection that someone could hold me hostage if they had the right coin, one that was unique for example in color or grade, and they knew it was a hole in my collection. All it took was one time and I learned my lesson. A little bit of anonymity can go a long way. Plus I was worried about security. But mostly is the first. Believe me it gave me great pleasure to display my coins and I'll open it back up once I'm done or nearly done.
Jeff
<< <i>Seems strange to me that the key to getting a 67 Brown grade is having more "red" and coloration than the next guy (ie more important than strike, luster, and marks).
Those last 2 coins graded 67 Brown look anything but "brown" to me. RB would be far more accurate. One of them is at least 30-50% red. Some of those 66 BN cents look to be RB as well. >>
It could also just be the whims of some graders, a new finalizer, NGC graders coming to PCGS (NGC grades 67 BN coins more regularly)
OR it could be that these mint set lincolns have a tan haze when turned away from the light, even often over the red areas.
Edited to simplify my answer
You've just picked a couple of bad examples to compare as your basis for this thread.
In the vast majority of cases, the 66+ will look like a 66+ and the 64 will look worse.
<<I'm down to few enough holes in the collection that someone could hold me hostage if they had the right coin, one that was unique for example in color or grade, and they knew it was a hole in my collection. All it took was one time and I learned my lesson. A little bit of anonymity can go a long way. Plus I was worried about security. But mostly is the first. Believe me it gave me great pleasure to display my coins and I'll open it back up once I'm done or nearly done.
>>
Perhaps it does not take a community to assemble a great coin collection.......
OINK
Robec,
I want to mention that over the years I've formed relationships with other collectors on these boards with similar collections, I'll let them name themselves if they want. Some I've sold, I've given some away for Birthday gifts, and so there aren't a lot left unnacounted for that someone could pick off by contacting me through the registry. So I dont want to appear selfish or one way
Jeff
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
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The 66+ has made nearly a 2 point jump (history prior is unknown) so is it really so outrageous to think the 64 could rather easily go 65+ or 66
The 64 has great surfaces and I am sure if the grader felt the coin was messed with no chance would be taken.
Luster seems to be a great concern on the 64. The ONLY 2 here that have seen the coin in hand and both of which collect high end toned BN copper to compare it to have stated the coin has great luster.
I do not no about the 66+ but I can tell you the 64 is undergraded it is that simple it happens.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm sorry Wingedliberty it's private but it's named "Coyote Ugly" in the colorless Lincoln registry (1909-1958).
>>
Jeff, why would you not make the viewing of your set public? I know you've scoured many other sets looking for coins you would hopefully be able to add to your set. Are you trying to prevent others from doing the same? >>
Great question.
I'm down to few enough holes in the collection that someone could hold me hostage if they had the right coin, one that was unique for example in color or grade, and they knew it was a hole in my collection. All it took was one time and I learned my lesson. A little bit of anonymity can go a long way. Plus I was worried about security. But mostly is the first. Believe me it gave me great pleasure to display my coins and I'll open it back up once I'm done or nearly done.
Jeff >>
With such a small body of Lincoln's graded 66 BN there isn't really that many to go around. Too little butter for the bread. How many full wheat sets could really be completed PCGS slabbed in these grades? Two? Three? Some of these coins are so beautiful they can be considered sets of their own IMO.
My comment is that ANYBODY holding one of these can hold us ALL hostage and for me I'm just happy I saw or was offered one first, then just snap it up. Not sure if another 1915 has been made but I'll never cough mine up. I love these things too and it warms my heart to see others enjoy what I've heard OINK describe as little jewels.
As far as the grading differences in this series and color designation, it is my belief you could undress all the NGC and PCGS 4s, 5s, and 6s mix them all up send them in raw and many of them would make each other's grades. Probably settling in the 65 range being the median price point to me. Yes, when a 6 is killer at loupe level and at arms length it can justify the premium as a wonder coin, but sadly many 65s are head and shoulders better than many 66s I've seen and the best value in the 65 BN Lincoln end of the pool for what it's worth.
Best of luck in your collecting goals. Maybe talking about this more will prompt more dealers to submit more examples as they cross their desks. I'm convinces that they exist, just not in slabs yet.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>To keep things in perspective I would like to add that many high end coins have bagged before getting there and copper of color is definately no exception.
The 66+ has made nearly a 2 point jump (history prior is unknown) so is it really so outrageous to think the 64 could rather easily go 65+ or 66
The 64 has great surfaces and I am sure if the grader felt the coin was messed with no chance would be taken.
Luster seems to be a great concern on the 64. The ONLY 2 here that have seen the coin in hand and both of which collect high end toned BN copper to compare it to have stated the coin has great luster.
I do not no about the 66+ but I can tell you the 64 is undergraded it is that simple it happens. >>
I can't think of many lincolns with surfaces as clean as your 1917. If a coin with that surface preservation were screaming original red it would be a wonder coin and I don't know what grade limit it would reach.
(Because you know your copper) I'm concluding this coin just needs to be seen in hand to discount the suspicions of alteration or tinkering.
<< <i>While I have 3 pages to read, who here would pay 66 money for the 64? If someone answers, yes......that person knows his coins.
Leo >>
I would gladly pay 66 money for the 64.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>
<< <i>While I have 3 pages to read, who here would pay 66 money for the 64? If someone answers, yes......that person knows his coins.
Leo >>
I would gladly pay 66 money for the 64. >>
Count me in!
MS66BN price guide is $250.
I will offer that plus 50 (a total of $300) for that MS64BN.
I really like it
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Very interesting thread, it brings up a lot of aspects of the TPGS' roll in collecting, as well as their need to make a profit and protect their 'opinions' - I don't imagine that they want to pay out for overgrades too often.
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!