Customer wants coins in new holders...but it doesnt add value...

Jinx86 · March 7, 2014 2:42AM

I have a customer with 7 Gold coins in PCGS Old Green Holders all MS64 All solid for the grade with one or two with a potential upgrade or a plus. Theres no real upside in price even with a few plus grades since the coins are all common date and we typically trade these in bulk lots. How do I explain to him as a collector Id rather buy the coins as is in old green holders? Anyone else have dilemmas like this?

BillJones · March 7, 2014 2:45AM

Yes, in some circles it is easier to sell PCGS coins in green label holders because there is a perception that the grading was more conservative. As such I'd leave the coins in their green label holders, but there are collectors out there who have the idea that all of their coins should have the same label. To me that is foolish, but that's what they want. There also might be some attractive to the new holders because the clear prongs. That is a consideration, but it would not be enough for me to get my collection reholdered.

MGLICKER · March 7, 2014 2:47AM

Cannot think of any classic gold that would not rise in value with a plus or full point upgrade from MS64. Customer may be right.

Jinx86 · March 7, 2014 2:48AM

Part of the problem is he wants all the coins broke out and regraded, not just reholdered.

crypto79 · March 7, 2014 2:54AM

Give him your professional opinion but do as he requests. Not hard

Clemenza · March 7, 2014 3:00AM

The customer is always right.

TomB · March 7, 2014 3:05AM

They belong to the client. Tell the client your professional opinion and give him/her the reasons for the opinion, but in the end be prepared to either help the client with his/her wishes or to direct the client to another dealer to help.

MsMorrisine · March 7, 2014 3:07AM

point them to this thread where they will read that, outside of the upgrade candidates, they should be left in the old holders because the reholder fee and shipping charges -- especially the shipping charges -- will not make it worth it to reholder them. further, while old green holders could be faked, it is the plain blue labels that we see on the sites of those selling fakes for fraudulent re-sale.

MsMorrisine · March 7, 2014 3:08AM

<< They belong to the client. Tell the client your professional opinion and give him/her the reasons for the opinion, but in the end be prepared to either help the client with his/her wishes or to direct the client to another dealer to help. >>

quite true.

I agree.

Clemenza · March 7, 2014 3:10AM

<< point them to this thread where they will read that, outside of the upgrade candidates, they should be left in the old holders because the reholder fee and shipping charges -- especially the shipping charges -- will not make it worth it to reholder them. further, while old green holders could be faked, it is the plain blue labels that we see on the sites of those selling fakes for re-sale. >>

What if the customer just wants his coins reholdered? What's the problem with that?

Staircoins · March 7, 2014 3:18AM

<< Give him your professional opinion but do as he requests. Not hard >>

+1

DonWillis · March 7, 2014 3:20AM

That's why we offer the Reconsideration service.

derryb · March 7, 2014 3:21AM

advise and obey.

CoinRaritiesOnline · March 7, 2014 3:24AM

<< Part of the problem is he wants all the coins broke out and regraded, not just reholdered. >>

You can explain the various grading options, the benefits of reconsideration and the downside of cracking them out.

But if at the end of the day if he insists on cracking, I would certainly recommend that he do one at a time and see how it goes . . .

TwoSides2aCoin · March 7, 2014 3:54AM

The best customer service is… Service with a smile. Most people don't care about our opinion until we care about theirs.

Jinx86 · March 7, 2014 4:23AM

So with the Reconsideration Service if I send it the 7 coins and none of them have upgrade potential...If only 2 upgrade. What am I charged? Is it just a fee for them to be looked at?

Ive never used this service so not familiar with it.

Unknown · March 7, 2014 4:50AM

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Unknown · March 7, 2014 4:52AM

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RYK · March 7, 2014 4:54AM

While the coins will still be the coins, in my experience, the market anticipation of the potential upgrade can add more value and sizzle than the actual upgrade. Once cracked and regraded, that sizzle will be gone. Who knows if all of the coins will even grade again?

Jinx86 · March 7, 2014 4:56AM

<< Who knows if all of the coins will even grade again >>

A point I tried to push with him.

MsMorrisine · March 7, 2014 4:58AM

<< So with the Reconsideration Service if I send it the 7 coins and none of them have upgrade potential...If only 2 upgrade. What am I charged? Is it just a fee for them to be looked at?

Ive never used this service so not familiar with it. >>

1-800-447-8848

Unknown · March 7, 2014 5:24AM

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roadrunner · March 7, 2014 5:46AM

<< While the coins will still be the coins, in my experience, the market anticipation of the potential upgrade can add more value and sizzle than the actual upgrade. Once cracked and regraded, that sizzle will be gone. Who knows if all of the coins will even grade again? >>

What he said. A fresh deal of ogh gold that has been kept together for 10 years or more has some sizzle to it. If these are just random pieces picked up in the last few years, then more crackle than sizzle.
Plus signs on MS64 gold will always add more value. It's like saying a CAC sticker on MS64 gold adds no additional value/liquidity. I can't think of any MS64 to MS65 upgrades on one single common date gold coin where
that alone wouldn't pay for the entire submission. It's a $400 min jump for a 64 to 65 Saint. And every other denomination has a bigger jump. Any of these ogh's that sticker would probably also add 5-15% per coin.

BillJones · March 7, 2014 5:50AM

You have to be very careful and know what you are doing before you start doing a bunch of crack-outs. As some people, including dealers who have been in the hobby for a long time, have learned what you get back can surprise you, and sometimes not in a good way.

If you know what you are doing, the crack-out game can be rewarding, but hardly a "sure thing." A mass crack-out like this could result, at best, in money spent for little or no gain. This is because many items will not get an upgrade. At worst it can be a financial disaster is you have a bunch of "B- or C" coins.

Jinx86 · March 7, 2014 6:05AM

For this client the money involved is of no matter. He could buy all 65's if he wanted, I think hes just bored.

Also just got off the phone with him he wants ME to crack them out so I had him agree over the phone that I am not liable for any damages or down graded coins. Our phone system records all calls so I wrote down what line I was on and what time the call was taken so if need be we can look back.

Elcontador · March 7, 2014 6:42AM

<< For this client the money involved is of no matter. He could buy all 65's if he wanted, I think hes just bored.

Also just got off the phone with him he wants ME to crack them out so I had him agree over the phone that I am not liable for any damages or down graded coins. Our phone system records all calls so I wrote down what line I was on and what time the call was taken so if need be we can look back. >>

If you're going to crack those coins out, I suggest you get something in writing with his signature on it to this effect. BTW, If you are recording phone calls without his knowledge / agreement, that can open another can of worms.

DIMEMAN · March 7, 2014 6:55AM

If I reholdered all my dimes everytime PCGS changed their holder......I would be spending more money on holders than coins!

SeattleSlammer · March 7, 2014 7:04AM

<< For this client the money involved is of no matter. He could buy all 65's if he wanted, I think hes just bored.

Also just got off the phone with him he wants ME to crack them out so I had him agree over the phone that I am not liable for any damages or down graded coins. Our phone system records all calls so I wrote down what line I was on and what time the call was taken so if need be we can look back. >>

If he's insisting on sending them in for a reholder....send for reholder and let PCGS crack 'em.....you shouldn't crack them out yourself anyways.

BillJones · March 7, 2014 7:56AM

<< For this client the money involved is of no matter. He could buy all 65's if he wanted, I think hes just bored.

Also just got off the phone with him he wants ME to crack them out so I had him agree over the phone that I am not liable for any damages or down graded coins. Our phone system records all calls so I wrote down what line I was on and what time the call was taken so if need be we can look back. >>

I wish I was bored with his money. You would not believe the sets I'd build if I had unlimited funds. I would find a better thing to do that crack out my collection and have it re-graded and re-holdered.

lkeigwin · March 7, 2014 8:14AM

I'm confused. Does he want them "regraded" (PCGS's definition) or cracked and submitted for grading as raw coins? Sounds like the latter.

If I were you I would not do the cracking. The guy might accuse you of scratching a coin. Or get a signed statement from him acknowledging the request and freeing you from any incidental damage, as unlikely as it might be. I'd also include a paragraph about the risks of coins grading lower or not grading problem-free.

State laws differ on taping phone conversations. Last time I looked into it was when I was working for the feds in NYC in the 70's. At that time it was legal as long as at least one party knew about it.
Lance.

sonoranmonsoon · March 7, 2014 9:43AM

I can't help thinking the customer may feel the coins may have been stolen at some point, and wants them cracked out to erase the cert number history of the coins. This is probably not the case, but it is a possible long shot reason for his request.

roadrunner · March 7, 2014 10:12AM

<< For this client the money involved is of no matter. He could buy all 65's if he wanted, I think hes just bored.

Also just got off the phone with him he wants ME to crack them out so I had him agree over the phone that I am not liable for any damages or down graded coins. Our phone system records all calls so I wrote down what line I was on and what time the call was taken so if need be we can look back. >>

I still wouldn't do it. If he wants them cracked out then return them so he can do it himself. The better solution is to send them to PCGS for regrade in which case they will be all be cracked out and come back no lower. Some might come back higher. That's a win-win for both of you. He gets the new holders and possibly some extra upgrades tossed in. There's no advantage to cracking them out and them shipping them in raw. No advantage whatsoever. Any puttied or altered surface gold you might miss will be your mistake to eat (ie genny holder). My last shipment of rattler crackouts were MS65 seated halves. I could have cracked them out but why take that risk? PCGS did the cracking for me and every one of those coins still came back MS66. Now if the guy had old fatty NGC holders then I would probably recommend cracking them out before sending to PCGS. Do not crack these coins out no matter what the guy is telling you. If the guy doesn't value my opinion as the dealer, then I really don't want them as my client, no matter how bored the guy is or how many MS65's he can afford to buy.

I've told my MS64 $10 Lib bag to riches story a number of times. The coin was bought out of auction by me for PQ64 money and it looked every bit a no brainer MS65+ with hardly a hit on the entire coin. I "knew" it would upgrade. Imagine my surprise when that come back body bagged. I sent it to the other TPG....body bagged again. I showed the coin to leading PNG gold dealers that couldn't tell me what was wrong but sensed something wasn't quite right with it. I tried to sell the coin raw for MS63+ money but no takers. They all laughed at me as I gave the full history of the BB's to any potential buyers. I finally sent the coin in for auction hoping it might catch the eye of a crack out dealer who could push it to 64-65 money. Nope. The auction house loved the coin and submitted it again w/o my knowledge (I'd have told them don't waste your time fellas). It came back MS66 first time. Rather than lose 30% I made a 100%. When it comes to altered surface or played with gold there are a lot of conflicts between expert eyes out there. I wouldn't crack out any OGH gold. Let PCGS do it. If your client demands that you melt down all his slabbed gold coins so that he can put together a gold pseudo-"nugget" display for the ANA exhibits are you going to do it? PCGS has a fool-proof system in place....I'd use it.

Cougar1978 · March 7, 2014 10:28AM

If this guy is offering coins to me I would make my offer (to buy them at that point in time as is) and if he wants to he can take it or else pass and get them reholdered or whatever and then that could change the deal if he returns with the reholdered coins. Am I missing something here, why all this hassle about the holders if he is trying to sell them? Or is he just trying to dump on you. If these are his coins then he can resubmit them and come back for my offer which may be the same, different, or pass. I have no desire to argue with someone like that or take any additional risk. Every coin deal is a point in time. Either the person is decisive and takes it at that point or it could be different.

People seem to assume OGH will upgrade, etc. I have seen instances where they downgrade. He has to decide to either sell them as is or assume any risk, expense in the reholder process and submit them himself. No way I would crack those coins if I did not own them or let someone try to dump something on me like that. I buy and sell coins, I don't run a free crackout service for people who can't make a decision.

OldIndianNutKase · March 7, 2014 12:13PM

I think that you just send them for reconsideration AND reholder. PCGS should have no issue with this, but you might have to call PCGS to get both options elected. I do not think that a dealer should EVER crack out a client's coin. The dealer in doing so can incur liabilities without any reward. I am much like your client, I really do not have any emotional attachment to OGH's. I just want the coin to have a correct grade, regardless of the holder.

OINK

ColonelJessup · March 7, 2014 12:24PM

<< That's why we offer the Reconsideration service. >>

Does anyone else think this is spamming . . .

OldIndianNutKase · March 7, 2014 12:37PM

<<Does anyone else think this is spamming . . . >>
Colonel Jessup, you must be bored on a Friday night. Accusing Don Willis of being a "Spammer" on his own web site might be a little beyond the pale. But he is "advertising" for a service offered by PCGS that is in most ways what the OP's client is asking for.

OINK

lkeigwin · March 7, 2014 12:46PM

<< I think that you just send them for reconsideration AND reholder. PCGS should have no issue with this, but you might have to call PCGS to get both options elected. I do not think that a dealer should EVER crack out a client's coin. The dealer in doing so can incur liabilities without any reward. I am much like your client, I really do not have any emotional attachment to OGH's. I just want the coin to have a correct grade, regardless of the holder.

OINK >>

What's a reconsideration AND reholder? That makes no sense and PCGS won't do it.

Reconsideration: PCGS will review the coin and only if it can upgrade will it be cracked. A premium is charged.
Reholder: No grade review is done. No premium. A new slab.

There is no way to combine the two. What's the point, anyway?

If you want a new holder and a new grade then just have it regraded and pay the premium if it upgrades.
Lance.

OldIndianNutKase · March 7, 2014 12:56PM

<<If you want a new holder and a new grade then just have it regraded and pay the premium if it upgrades.
>>

Great advice on how to get this done. I've never submitted a coin for a regrade, but it does make a lot of sense. Thanks for that suggestion.

OINK

RYK · March 7, 2014 1:09PM

People seem to assume OGH will upgrade, etc. I have seen instances where they downgrade.

I make no assumptions but base any conjecture on personal experience in viewing, studying, buying, selling, grading, and specializing in gold coins in OGHs. A random grouping of gold coins in post-Rattler OGHs, on average, if resubmitted will contain upgrades, downgrades, no grades, and same grades. The majority of coins will grade the same, upon resubmission, but for every downgrade, there will be, perhaps, 10-20 upgrades. There will be far more no grades than downgrades--coins that have turned in their holders over time or coins deemed market acceptable in another era that are no longer so.

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · March 7, 2014 1:09PM

<< <<Does anyone else think this is spamming . . . >>
Colonel Jessup, you must be bored on a Friday night. Accusing Don Willis of being a "Spammer" on his own web site might be a little beyond the pale. But he is "advertising" for a service offered by PCGS that is in most ways what the OP's client is asking for.

OINK >>

...if you couldn't see the sarcasm in his post than...you my friend... need a stiff drink...enjoy the rest of your obviously indulging Friday night

Erik

Justlooking · March 7, 2014 4:31PM

Reconsideration. Remuneration. Reconciliation.

johnny9434 · March 8, 2014 1:43AM

<< Give him your professional opinion but do as he requests. Not hard >>

its their money

Customer wants coins in new holders...but it doesnt add value...

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