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Is this real? Jefferson Indian Peace medal...results are in!
EagleEye
Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
This was brought into my shop last week. The couple who brought it in said it was found metal detecting in Yakima, Washington.
It is not the standard size, it is 37.7 MM. Silver and hollow. It weighs 21.6 grams. It has a medal turn.
Some background on the Jefferson Indian Peace medals
Lewis and Clark carried a total of at least eighty-nine peace medals in five different sizes:
3 large Jefferson medals about 105 mm (4.13 in.) in diameter
13 Jefferson medals about 76 mm (2.95 in.) in diameter
16 Jefferson medals about 55 mm (2.17 in.) in diameter
55 "season" medals, 45 mm (1.77 in.) in diameter
2 (or 4?) "medals of the fifth size," of unknown size
So, being that it is not a known size, it should be rigorously examined and tested. In talking with Pistereen (who I caught literally running out the door to his honeymoon when I called) he said the last item on the list "Medals of a fifth size" are believed to be US silver dollars. He and anyone else who has something to add will have a chance to see it at the Atlanta ANA show.
I also contacted Denga about this, since he wrote the book on them.
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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Comments
<< <i>It is not the standard size, it is 37.7 MM. Silver and hollow. It weighs 21.6 grams.
Some background on the Jefferson Indian Peace medals >>
That article is pretty interesting, especially regarding the two piece construction and the fact they had to be made during lunch and at night. Was John Reich the first Moonlight Minter?
<< <i>Because of limitations in American technology at the turn of the 19th century, all the Jefferson medals were stamped in sheet silver, and the two parts — front and back (obverse and reverse) — were held together by a silver band. The artisan who created the Jefferson medals was an immigrant German "die sinker" named John Reich, who was employed at the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia, where the work had to be done during noon hours and at night so as not to interfere with the minting of coins. >>
I have been fortunate enough to handle some genuine silver Peace medals over the years, and I have collected the fake ones in the past.
Please show it to me in Atlanta as well, Rick.
TD
I do not recall seeing anything like this. Some thoughts:
It seems to be die struck as the lettering appears to be made from punches. The wear makes it a little hard to be certain.
The roughly 38mm means 1.5 inches, which is less than the smallest regular issue at 2 inches.
The general style appears to be well done and the mark of an experienced engraver.
The hollow part is the same as the originals. So is the medallic turn although this piece is not holed as one would expect. Had it been done to fool collectors it would likely have the necessary hole.
The odd part of all this is why the difference in size. If someone was copying an original why not do it at 2 inches; the cost of the silver plate would not have been all that significant.
Thanks for letting me see this but I can offer very little except the guesses above.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
AB
The picture I've seen of this medal has what I can only describe as a pocket watch type attachment on the top, for a chain, leather string or whatever.
The picture was in a Lewis & Clark book but I can't say the medal shown was authentic.
Good luck!
Edit for spelling.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Hmm....
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Rick, I do not like it, but I cannot tell you why.
TD >>
This was my reaction.
It is most likely unique and will be difficult to authenticate.
An interesting piece that may remain a mystery.
Unless you can find a clue as to when it was made...
Good luck with it.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
John is his first name, he posts here and knows this stuff really well.
<< <i>I ask http://www.jkamericana.com/
John is his first name, he posts here and knows this stuff really well. >>
The OP said that he called "Pistareen", the forum member/dealer you note.
Latin American Collection
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Wow, this is exciting....found MDing, a medal with hugh historical background of the birth of our country.
I really hope this pans out as the real deal!
<< <i>This is really interesting.... I hope we see some follow up information. Visually, I am bothered by the weakness of the axe handle...Cheers, RickO >>
I'm more bothered by the wavy fields which leads me to believe it may be an electrotype copy which are typically created by making two shells and attaching them together with a hollow interior or by filling them with lead.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I will show it at the Atlanta show to any expert I can find. Dave Wnuck, Pistereen, Dave Bowers, John Agree, Tony Terranova. For anyone else who wants to see it - just stop by my table and ask. I would like to get an X-ray florescence test done at the show to get the alloy metrics.
If this was a solid piece it would have been rejected as a copy at the counter in my store. I have seen a few of the real ones so I know what they should look like.
I am representing the owner and do not own this piece. I am just trying to authenticate it for them.
<< <i>As far as I know, the originals were minted in two halfs and then joined togethers with an edge strip. They are filled with what? Cardboard? It would be too destructive to actually open one up to find out.
I will show it at the Atlanta show to any expert I can find. Dave Wnuck, Pistereen, Dave Bowers, John Agree, Tony Terranova. For anyone else who wants to see it - just stop by my table and ask. I would like to get an X-ray florescence test done at the show to get the alloy metrics.
If this was a solid piece it would have been rejected as a copy at the counter in my store. I have seen a few of the real ones so I know what they should look like.
I am representing the owner and do not own this piece. I am just trying to authenticate it for them. >>
Rick---If you talk to five experts don't be surprised if you get six different opinions.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
These were made for sale during the sesquicentennial of the Lewis and Clark expedition in 1954.
Pretty good repro to keep the professionals guessing for 10 days.
If so then wouldn't they have some value there?
I've been thinking about this piece ever since you posted it.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
ya, thanks for the update. was pulling for ya on this one.
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