Future NGC registries will be NGC-only coins

lkeigwin · January 11, 2014 11:28AM

NGC Chairman Mark Salzberg told FUN attendees today at the NGC luncheon that all future NGC registries will be restricted to NGC-graded coins only.

NGC has already done this with their new "everyman" sets (named differently). He says he is reluctant to change sets that already exist but from this day forward PCGS coins will not be allowed in new registries.

Is it only a matter of time before only NGC coins are accepted for all sets? How will this be received by the collector community, many of whom have bought the coins, not the holders, and enjoyed registry competition?
Lance.

coinbuf · January 11, 2014 11:52AM

Only time will tell, seems to me that it wont be very much of an impact unless at some time in the future all sets are restricted. I mean how many more kinds of registry sets can be implemented that are not already on the books.

Unknown · January 11, 2014 11:52AM

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JJSingleton · January 11, 2014 11:55AM

It was very interesting commentary because at the same time he was saying this he also advised all collectors to buy the coin regardless of the holder, or raw. It was easy for me to see he was conflicted with his decision.

1TwoBits · January 11, 2014 11:57AM

It would be nice if PCGS and NGC just allowed coins in either company's holder in their registry sets. However, aside from the grading company interests there are the collectors. Some collect coins, some collect coins in PCGS holders, and some collect coins in NGC holders. For those who enjoy registry competition, I think some will like it and some won't.

Catbert · January 11, 2014 12:03PM

Conflicted? Perhaps. It may also be about protecting the NGC edge overseas, especially as they are receiving more competition from PCGS in foreign markets. Future foreign based registry sets exclusive to NGC may help in that regard.

This tit for tat though sucks for the collector who has both types of plastic in their collections.

DAM · January 11, 2014 12:04PM

what's good for the goose...

DAM · January 11, 2014 12:07PM

perhaps a non-TPG Co would set up a Registry, ie. CAC

amwldcoin · January 11, 2014 12:11PM

All I can say is of the 10 or so NGC coins I have cracked in AU...all have come back a notch less or deamed cleaned from PCGS. Haven't tried it the other way!

I have had a couple NGC coins upgrade at PCGS...but I balled up...cracked em and took my chances! These were high VF's that went to XF.

I R talking Barber Halves as I am a Barber Nut!

illini420 · January 11, 2014 12:18PM

Don't mind this at all... their company, they can do as they wish. I have my 1909 set (all PCGS coins) listed over on NGC and I've won the top spot in the category for the past 5-6 years or so. I really don't care about winning anything as I really only listed it over there so more people could check it out. I would hope that if they change to NGC only for their sets they would at least let me keep my PCGS set listed there and instead of taking it down maybe just give PCGS coins a reduced score or even zero points.

AMRC · January 11, 2014 12:22PM

It was only a matter of time. They have been talking about this for years.

Anyone care to predict what this will result in? I have some ideas.....

EVillageProwler · January 11, 2014 12:39PM

I'm not a registry player (not since the very beginning), and know nothing about internal NGC discussions on this matter.

But, there's the belief that this is necessary for the world coin area where PCGS and NGC don't match up on inventory details, like if a Strasbourg coin is German States or French; or, if a sixpence is a 6p or a 6d. I'm sure there are more incompatibilities that make registry verification difficult.

Or, was the announcement all about US, not world?

EVP

EVillageProwler · January 11, 2014 12:41PM

Sorry for the duplicate post.

AnkurJ · January 11, 2014 12:56PM

<< It was only a matter of time. They have been talking about this for years.

Anyone care to predict what this will result in? I have some ideas..... >>

I predict the end of registries is going to come sooner than later.

EVillageProwler · January 11, 2014 1:29PM

<< 

<< It was only a matter of time. They have been talking about this for years.

Anyone care to predict what this will result in? I have some ideas..... >>

I predict the end of registries is going to come sooner than later. >>

The registry concept is a nice idea if done so to showcase one's holdings and to give structure to set-building. But, the point system has corrupted the notion of COIN collecting into one that is INSERT collecting. For example, the Akers 1857 Seated Dollar sold in the recent HA auction at FUN. Graded by NGC, it disqualifies it from any registry points whatsoever over here. The late David Akers is renowned for his knowledge and expertise. That coin should be valued in anyone's collection... But for strict registry collectors, it is nothing.

If someone were doing a dollar type set, what is the point value of a Seated Dollar in MS63 to an Ike in MS66? (I really don't know...)

EVP

JCMhouston · January 11, 2014 1:40PM

They made the change to World sets over a year ago.

WildIdea · January 11, 2014 2:12PM

Well it was fun while it lasted. I have set up one registry set listed on NGC.com and have both services represented.

I always viewed it as pretty cool that NGC would allow both services. Always seemed like the high road and driven by a love of all coins. Grading standards just aren't that far apart to me to need them segregated. I've never listed my coins on PCGS as it would only be about half of what my collection looks like.

On the other hand, I always wondered why collections of strictly PCGS certified coins would bother listing on NGCs site. Why bother? PC purists have their own site. Guess NGC says beat it. Their prerogative, but I don't see people buying NGC certified coins strictly to compete in the registry. I would have maybe required at least one NGC certified coin to be represented in the set as a start.

Should have been left alone, but they mess with it all the time really, changing values and whatnot, it's silly to buy with point values in mind when they will constantly change them. It was cool in the beginning for me but now just an organizational tool.

Billet7 · January 11, 2014 2:17PM

A shot in the foot if you ask me. A registry will be started that allows both, mark my words.

roadrunner · January 11, 2014 2:34PM

Good news. And a step in the right direction. You can't compete with the top dog if they don't allow your coins in their registries....but you allow theirs in your registries. The market is very perceptive and
correctly understood why this difference has existed since the Registries were created. They can't stop here though. There is a TON more to do to restore a level of equality.

tradedollarnut · January 11, 2014 2:40PM

Eh. It's all political over there anyway...

Unknown · January 11, 2014 2:55PM

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mozin · January 11, 2014 3:22PM

I have numerous Registry sets in both the PCGS and the NGC Registries. If NGC decides to no longer allow PCGS coins in their Registry, I must leave the NGC program. I don't own enough NGC coins to bother setting up a NGC exclusive set.

mkman123 · January 11, 2014 4:13PM

Make sense to do that, PCGS does it with their registry. I will say it was cool of NGC however to allow people to put PCGS coin in their registry, heck I saw entire sets that were PCGS only there!

jhdfla · January 11, 2014 8:09PM

<< Eh. It's all political over there anyway... >>

I tend to agree, but the same could be said from the other side of the fence as well.

So if true, collectors who own coins in a given series in both holders will no longer have a venue to display their collection?

messydesk · January 11, 2014 9:02PM

I suppose one possible outcome is that Heritage starts up a set registry that allows people to create competitive sets there.

dollarsandcents · January 11, 2014 9:13PM

<< Eh. It's all political over there anyway... >>

Yeah, thank goodness it's not like that around here.
Right?
Meh.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 11, 2014 9:13PM

<< It was only a matter of time. They have been talking about this for years.

Anyone care to predict what this will result in? I have some ideas….. >>

More blue and/or grey boxes ?

PerryHall · January 11, 2014 9:14PM

<< Eh. It's all political over there anyway... >>

Unlike here?

dollarsandcents · January 11, 2014 9:25PM

<< It was only a matter of time. They have been talking about this for years.

Anyone care to predict what this will result in? I have some ideas..... >>

If I were the type that made predictions, I believe this move creates an opportunity for some enterprising individual to fill the need or void in the market. Who ever does, should come up with a really awesome name for it too...
Like "The Legendary Awesome Registry" or "The Universal Registry Legendary Collections" or something along those lines.

erwindoc · January 11, 2014 10:17PM

I think it stinks. I have my sets over there so I can use coins from both TPG companies. Now I might have to create sets that Ill anticipate doing years from now.

Exbrit · January 11, 2014 10:21PM

I do not like the idea. I have always thought that NGC had a leg up on PCGS by allowing both in their registry sets.

Boosibri · January 11, 2014 10:31PM

<< I suppose one possible outcome is that Heritage starts up a set registry that allows people to create competitive sets there. >>

I agree. This would be a logical move.

ambro51 · January 11, 2014 10:38PM

Curious decision. I can see this resulting in wholesale crossover submissions to PCGS.

Catbert · January 11, 2014 10:46PM

<< Curious decision. I can see this resulting in wholesale crossover submissions to PCGS. >>

Remember it's for future registry sets designed created by them.

coinkat · January 11, 2014 10:57PM

A logical move would be to have a PCGS-NGC sponsored Registry that is basically non-competitive- Collectors sharing coins-nothing more and nothing less.

Not everything in life or collecting... has to be competitive.

I suppose I just expect too much

ambro51 · January 11, 2014 11:30PM

TPR. Third party registry.

fcloud · January 11, 2014 11:39PM

With the differences in quality it makes sense for them. Unfortunately for me I will only have a couple of coins left when the get to the point of removing PCGS stuff.

coinlieutenant · January 12, 2014 12:02AM

Good news for PCGS. Bad news for NGC IMO. As the #2 grading agency I don't think they command exclusivity like the #1 does. They should have come up with a weight for PCGS coins that dropped them by 10% or something like that. The registry nuts, deciding on which place they wanted their sets for competition, would have paid for the crosses. Now it adds difficulty and decreases "set liquidity" if you will.

PerryHall · January 12, 2014 12:43AM

<< Good news for PCGS. Bad news for NGC IMO. As the #2 grading agency I don't think they command exclusivity like the #1 does. They should have come up with a weight for PCGS coins that dropped them by 10% or something like that. The registry nuts, deciding on which place they wanted their sets for competition, would have paid for the crosses. Now it adds difficulty and decreases "set liquidity" if you will. >>

How did you determine that NGC is the #2 grading service? Can you provide documentation or the source of this information?

dbcoin · January 12, 2014 12:49AM

How did you determine that NGC is the #2 grading service? Can you provide documentation or the source of this information?

Coins sold in PCGS slabs generally sell for more than coins in NGC slabs (US Coins)
PCGS has higher revenue, higher margins, and much higher profits than NGC
Ebay is using the PCGS coin catalog
PCGS grades more higher value coins than NGC
PCGS is able to charge more for grading fees
PCGS has done more to thwart counterfeits and generally leads in the anti-counterfeiting technology

coinlieutenant · January 12, 2014 1:00AM

You mean, did I run a study and publish it in a numismatic or scientific journal? No. Of course not. Your are welcome to disagree, but the evidence speaks for itself. A study COULD be done that shows something definitively empirical.

I love NGC, don't get me wrong, but I think it is a bad move for them. I've got coins in both holders in my collection, and other than a nagging OCD need to have consistency of holders, I really don't care where they reside.

BUT...if I were ever to go sell in auction, I know where I would cross to for the sale....

Cougar1978 · January 12, 2014 1:15AM

I could care less about the registry thing as I track everything on excel. If I am doing a series I may have raw, ANACS, ICG, PCGS, NGC. My goal is to fill the hole then upgrade. I value coins based on a number of sources. My spreadsheet allows me latitude to select which one.

However, if someone is in one special area and prefers PCGS for instance I can see considerable advantage with doing registry, especially if pricing, auction, and population data is auromatically updated. I am rather diverse in my Numismatic holdings doing both coins and currency. In many instances, the deal that walks up to the table is going to be a variety of raw and TPG material.

It only makes sense NGC would eventually go to that. I do use their collection manager in getting their values and other data in my NGC holdings.

csdot · January 12, 2014 1:25AM

I haven't seen an announcement on the NGC website, so I posted the question. Not sure I completely understand what the new decision means to my registries, if anything, but I can say I have favored the NGC registry exactly because NGC accepts coins graded by both companies. My preference has been to favor NGC for moderns, and PCGS for classic coins, but that has not been a hard and fast rule. A registry that accepts both is best for me.

Billet7 · January 12, 2014 1:31AM

<< How did you determine that NGC is the #2 grading service? Can you provide documentation or the source of this information?

Coins sold in PCGS slabs generally sell for more than coins in NGC slabs (US Coins)
PCGS has higher revenue, higher margins, and much higher profits than NGC
Ebay is using the PCGS coin catalog
PCGS grades more higher value coins than NGC
PCGS is able to charge more for grading fees
PCGS has done more to thwart counterfeits and generally leads in the anti-counterfeiting technology >>

Great evidence, but he wants documentation. Where are your sources?

dbcoin · January 12, 2014 1:35AM

Great evidence, but he wants documentation. Where are your sources?

Documents filed with the SEC, company press releases, auction results, company fee web pages, etc

PerryHall · January 12, 2014 1:39AM

<< 

<< How did you determine that NGC is the #2 grading service? Can you provide documentation or the source of this information?

Coins sold in PCGS slabs generally sell for more than coins in NGC slabs (US Coins)
PCGS has higher revenue, higher margins, and much higher profits than NGC
Ebay is using the PCGS coin catalog
PCGS grades more higher value coins than NGC
PCGS is able to charge more for grading fees
PCGS has done more to thwart counterfeits and generally leads in the anti-counterfeiting technology >>

Great evidence, but he wants documentation. Where are your sources? >>

Which grading service has slabbed the most coins? Not sure if a specific number is available for each service. Don't get me wrong---I like PCGS but by what measure do we make an unbiased determination what is #1 or #2?

coindeuce · January 12, 2014 1:53AM

Personally, I'll give the #1 rank to the publicly traded/owned company. Provides a broader base of accountability for all aspects of the business. Your mileage may vary.

Time for me to get busy selling off the few coins that would be left in my Registry set ATS. There will be plenty of disciples left who want to elevate their ranking at Sleepy Hollow.

csdot · January 12, 2014 1:54AM

I imagine the debate of which top TPG is between is similar to the debate over which German car maker is better? One may edge out the other(s) for a specific snapshot in time, but they are only as good as their customers' most recent impressions. As we know, those customer impressions and market forces change over time, and a number 1 company and a number 2 company can easily switch places.

coindeuce · January 12, 2014 1:59AM

" and a number 1 company and a number 2 company can easily switch places." Easily Not, IMHO.

MacCrimmon · January 12, 2014 2:03AM

<< 

<< Good news for PCGS. Bad news for NGC IMO. As the #2 grading agency I don't think they command exclusivity like the #1 does. They should have come up with a weight for PCGS coins that dropped them by 10% or something like that. The registry nuts, deciding on which place they wanted their sets for competition, would have paid for the crosses. Now it adds difficulty and decreases "set liquidity" if you will. >>

How did you determine that NGC is the #2 grading service? Can you provide documentation or the source of this information? >>

COINFACTS already has a comparison of "grading" levels.

In looking at auctions from comparable months/years (preferably same auction cos.) one will note a definite divergence at the 66 level and up (depending on the series, it could be MS/PF64 and up) between "Hertz" and "Avis". Some collectors (the smart ones), and most dealers can be seen to vote with their dollars.

The scholarly types with nothing better to do can parse through and come up with means, skew, & kurtosis factors of various series, dates, mintmarks to satisfy the question.

Me, I've only to attend a large auction to determine which are the nicest coins up for bids.

dbcoin · January 12, 2014 2:06AM

Which grading service has slabbed the most coins? Not sure if a specific number is available for each service.

PCGS updates their number on a daily basis. NGC updates every time they hit a milestone. As I write both are near 28M total coins graded with NGC ahead by about 1/2M coins. NGC is the leader in lower priced coins and has had specials of late to grade basically junk for $10/coin. The lead gap has been narrowing but I suspect NGC will reach 30M coins first as they continue to lower margins and grade more low priced stuff.

In short, I don't think number of coins graded is a good metric. In this case, NGC is HTC and PCGS is Apple. One sells more phones and makes no profit. The other sells the high end phones and accounts for almost all of the industries profits and innovation. And yes, I also own Apple

Future NGC registries will be NGC-only coins

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