A NOT SO "Flawless" MS70 Silver Eagle

milkcoin · October 30, 2013 10:27AM

As a collector of Silver Eagles, I regularly browse the auctions. Just came across this one selling in the Heritage sale, and am stunned. First, I was surprised by the high price for an NGC MS70. Then, upon close inspection of the photos of the coin, I was even more shocked not just to find a couple of small marks and milk spots, but what looks to be major issues in the fields of the coin. How can this coin grade 70 and how can multiple bidders pay so much for such a piece of junk that you can buy at any coin shop for $30? Is this hobby really coming down to what the label says and nothing else matters??

MS70 NGC HA

And above all, Heritage even had guts to put a video description of the coin and tell their customers the coin is "Flawless". not so sure about that!

PerryHall · October 30, 2013 10:33AM

Could be flaws or scuffs in the plastic.

crypto79 · October 30, 2013 10:49AM

You should know that the whole 70 shick is a game no mater the company but if one is committed to playing the game it is best to know which is the big league and which is the minor triple A league.

RYK · October 30, 2013 10:50AM

<< You should know that the whole 70 shick is a game no mater the company but if one is committed to playing the game it is best to know which is the big league and which is the minor triple A league. >>

I agree with about 70% of that, but I am not going to tell you which 30% I disagree.

keyman64 · October 30, 2013 10:55AM

Yikes, that looks really really bad. Buy the coin, not the holder. LOL

Mark · October 30, 2013 10:56AM

One of the aspects I really like about this hobby is that it's only very infrequently that someone puts a gun to my head and tells me that I must purchase a certain coin. I enjoy the freedom of collecting what I like and letting others collect what they like.

derryb · October 30, 2013 11:15AM

<< I was surprised by the high price for an NGC MS70. >>

MS70 silver eagles in select years are actually quite rare. PCGS pop reports for years 1986-2000 show a total of only 37 MS70s with nine of those years not having a single coin graded MS70. 1999 is one of those years. For this reason certain year sealed ASE monster boxes bring a higher premium.

milkcoin · October 30, 2013 11:17AM

But can we agree this coin is not an MS70??

derryb · October 30, 2013 11:37AM

most definitely agree.

lostincoins · October 30, 2013 11:46AM

i am just going to start putting pics of coins in holders cents the holder is what is worth the money. A coin has no value unless it can be sent in to PCGS or NGC and they put it in a holder. I hate holders JMHO.

AUandAG · October 30, 2013 11:46AM

Yup, I agree it is not a MS70 example.

bob

bsshog40 · October 30, 2013 11:50AM

Are they nics or maybe pitts made from an old die?? If they were caused by a poor die, would that have made a difference?

Broadstruck · October 30, 2013 11:54AM

Even a MS99+ coin falls apart when blown up to the size of a man hole cover.

Shamika · October 30, 2013 11:54AM

That's a dud!

illini420 · October 30, 2013 11:57AM

Heritage calling this coin flawless in the video is not accurate.

Folks bidding this up over $16k already is a bit crazy.

braddick · October 30, 2013 12:41PM

instead of tics, perhaps those are planchet flakes. If so- could make the difference.

robertpr · October 30, 2013 12:46PM

<< Heritage calling this coin flawless in the video is not accurate.

Folks bidding this up over $16k already is a bit crazy. >>

Maybe the graders got a little blurry-eyed from dealing with massive, huge, enormous bulk submissions of this modern crap.

And maybe the auctioneers got a little blurry-eyed from the gobs of fees they're gonna pull in by selling this plastic.

Unknown · October 30, 2013 2:44PM

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Frankcoins · October 30, 2013 3:00PM

"Can we all agree it's not MS70"

Apparently it is under NGC standards which are less strict than PCGS for MS70 moderns. And "Flawless" probably doesn't
mean what you think it means. Flawless diamonds, for example, will show no flaws at 10x magnification, buy look at them under
20x or 50x scope and they look horrible.

PerryHall · October 30, 2013 3:19PM

PCGS standards require that an MS70 coin will not show any flaws under 5X magnification. The flaws on the coin in question are probably not visible under 5X magnification.
Milkcoin---Can we get a similar man hole cover sized pic of a PCGS MS70 ASE? I bet that we will be able to find more than a few microscopic flaws in this pic.

baseballjeff · October 30, 2013 3:25PM

<< But can we agree this coin is not an MS70?? >>

I agree!

PerryHall · October 30, 2013 3:36PM

<< 

<< But can we agree this coin is not an MS70?? >>

I agree! >>

Originally, the grade MS70 was reserved for a perfect flawless coin and was considered as a theoretical grade. Such a perfect coin was felt to not exist and this grade was never used until the slabbing services came along.

illini420 · October 30, 2013 3:48PM

<< PCGS standards require that an MS70 coin will not show any flaws under 5X magnification. The flaws on the coin in question are probably not visible under 5X magnification.
Milkcoin---Can we get a similar man hole cover sized pic of a PCGS MS70 ASE? I bet that we will be able to find more than a few microscopic flaws in this pic. >>

Although the images of the coin shown here are magnified... any grader worth a darn would clearly see those so-called planchet flaws in the obverse fields (as well as the marks elsewhere on the coin) without ANY magnification. They may not see them at first glance if they are in fact too small, but they would certainly reflect light differently than the smooth fields and would obviously reveal themselves by simply rotating the coin under a light.

I understand the argument of some that if they are planchet flaws then the coin is still as struck and therefore still capable of an MS70 grade, but with nearly 100 examples of this date graded MS70 by NGC (and none by PCGS) it still blows my mind that someone out there (and an underbidder) is paying $16k+ for this coin (more like paying for the label)??? Surely there are better examples out there in the same grade!

Finally, say what you want about the coin and the grading standards of each service... but we all know not a single person on this board would buy this coin if it were on the BST uncertified for $100... probably not even for $50...

PerryHall · October 30, 2013 4:04PM

Agree that it's grossly overpriced. When it comes to modern coins, I'll take a MS69 and use the money that I save by not buying a MS70 to buy a real coin.

Type2 · October 30, 2013 4:15PM

Buy the coin not the you know.

Zrider · October 30, 2013 5:31PM

It would make a nice manhole cover.

MsMorrisine · October 30, 2013 5:33PM

Should I be condemning HA without seeing the coin in person?

19Lyds · October 30, 2013 5:41PM

<< Are they nics or maybe pitts made from an old die?? If they were caused by a poor die, would that have made a difference? >>

From what I understand, Silver Eagle Dies get replaced frequently and as such, "old dies" are non-existent.

As for the coin in question, 1999 was a bad year for Milk Spots and no doubt, this one turned before it was slabbed.

The inconsistencies in the field are inexcusable and this one was no doubt the result of a hurry up bulk submission that was simply given a certain percentage of 70's. In other words, they "look" for 70's but sometimes don't look close enough.

If folks are going to get into "collecting" the 70'd game, they need to take the bad with the good.

If folks are into the "lets get some 70's by submitting a monster box", this is usually the end result.

MsMorrisine · October 30, 2013 10:42PM

<< 

<< Are they nics or maybe pitts made from an old die?? If they were caused by a poor die, would that have made a difference? >>

From what I understand, Silver Eagle Dies get replaced frequently and as such, "old dies" are non-existent.

As for the coin in question, 1999 was a bad year for Milk Spots and no doubt, this one turned before it was slabbed. >>

So, no doubt HA made a big deal over a problem coin?

kimber45ACP · October 30, 2013 11:20PM

I believe the game being played is called "Registry Set". That's all it is. More than one person needed it for their registry set.
Who cares what the coin looks like, as long as it's stamped 70 and in a set ranked #1, that's all that matters.

pf70collector · October 31, 2013 12:06AM

Nice strike probably helps. I don't see that it is flawless. $18000-$25000 range is crazy with 91 examples in MS 70.

WestySteve · October 31, 2013 12:25AM

<< One of the aspects I really like about this hobby is that it's only very infrequently that someone puts a gun to my head and tells me that I must purchase a certain coin. I enjoy the freedom of collecting what I like and letting others collect what they like. >>

I want to know more about the time that this did happen.

Coinsponge · October 31, 2013 12:27AM

I have a theory that bulk submissions do not get the scrutiny that regular submissions get. Also, there is a kind of expectation built into the system where some dates are to never get 70's no matter how the coin looks and yet for other dates even obviously flawed coins can get a 70. So if occasionally a 70 gets through on a date where that is not supposed to happen, that coin gets crowned with the rarity factor of a low population count and the dollars are there ready to chase it. Like the 5 ounce silver bullion "quarters". I do not believe one 70 has been graded and do not think one will ever be allowed to surface no matter what the coin looks like.

CaptHenway · October 31, 2013 12:32AM

Sure am glad that I am not a coin grader anymore.

7Jaguars · October 31, 2013 12:36AM

I hope that this coin can serve as a case study. This whole ultra number game is crazy - the apparent defects with the usual caveats of not being seen in hand looks like so many other ungraded or "69" eagles, that it certainly appears to be an artefact of the slabbing entity. To pay a big premium for this seems over the top, God bless the buyers (obviously he has the sellers).

Unknown · October 31, 2013 12:39AM

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Coinsponge · October 31, 2013 12:47AM

What I find puzzling is how if each coin is judged by 2 or 3 graders than how can an eye apparent flaw get past all of them. The only thing I can figure it that it was on the grave yard shift.

MsMorrisine · October 31, 2013 12:50AM

I'm shockedpeople are hammering (pun!) the coin and not discussing the implications on HA.

Perhaps I should fwd this thread to ha??? People seem certain they made a video of a coin with a huge spot on the obverse and described it as perfect.

No one but I issuggesting contacting HA about this???

WoW

BAJJERFAN · October 31, 2013 12:58AM

<< I'm shockedpeople are hammering (pun!) the coin and not discussing the implications on HA.

Perhaps I should fwd this thread to ha??? People seem certain they made a video of a coin with a huge spot on the obverse and described it as perfect.

No one but I issuggesting contacting HA about this???

WoW >>

Contact HA and/or NGC.

BAJJERFAN · October 31, 2013 1:04AM

<< What I find puzzling is how if each coin is judged by 2 or 3 graders than how can an eye apparent flaw get past all of them. The only thing I can figure it that it was on the grave yard shift.

>>

I find it hard to believe that any TPG would squander the resources of 2 or 3 world class graders on bulk modern stuff. I was under the impression that junior graders did the bulk of this kind of stuff. They might have someone double check the 70s, but that's about it.

Coinsponge · October 31, 2013 1:05AM

I think they describe it as "technically perfect". Could it be that they do not view a planchet flaw as a negative on the grade? I would.

cucamongacoin · October 31, 2013 1:13AM

Those marks, of which a few are on Ms Lib as well, look to me like struck through debris. I think they would catch the naked eye and demand further inspection with a loupe.
While the coin may be "as struck", I would certainly consider it to be flawed.

s4ny · October 31, 2013 1:19AM

I don't play the MS69 - MS70 game. Who has eyes that good?

Coinsponge · October 31, 2013 1:22AM

<< I don't play the MS69 - MS70 game. Who has eyes that good? >>

Looks like a tempting game to get into on the seller side.

pmac · October 31, 2013 1:23AM

Not looking at the grade, but the coin, is there a market for doubling (inside the "B" in Liberty, the left sun rays and more)?

Coinsponge · October 31, 2013 1:29AM

<< Not looking at the grade, but the coin, is there a market for doubling (inside the "B" in Liberty, the left sun rays and more)? >>

I think that kind of doubling is probably pretty common.

steveben · October 31, 2013 2:42AM

flawless!

bsshog40 · October 31, 2013 6:00AM

There's no way that I would buy this 70 coin unless the planchet flaw was listed on the slab. There are too many of these to be buying one that a person has to guess whether it's a flaw or contact marks. Personally I think it's planchet flaws but would be a hard sell to someone not familiar with them.

PRECIOUSMENTAL · October 31, 2013 6:16AM

What is most interesting to me is that the video points out the fact that PCGS has never graded one of these Eagles in MS 70.
I wonder why they would not.....?

kimber45ACP · October 31, 2013 6:32AM

I can just imagine trying to explain to my wife:

Me - "Look at this, it's perfect. Flawless."
Wife - "What about all the dings and the big, honking milk spot?. I hope you didn't pay more than melt."
Me- "uh..."

Prethen · October 31, 2013 6:41AM

I think those dings are obvious at almost any magnification. They seem noticeable enough I gotta wonder if it's worth more than 67 money.

A NOT SO "Flawless" MS70 Silver Eagle

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A NOT SO &quot;Flawless&quot; MS70 Silver Eagle

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A NOT SO "Flawless" MS70 Silver Eagle