There CAN be a very real downside to the Reconsideration Service
georgiacop50
Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭
Before the introduction of Reconsideration Service one could leave coins with a dealer on consignment and in theory he would tote them around to the really big shows and thus expose them to many more buyers on your behalf.
Whatever did not sell got returned to you at the agreed upon time and you collected your money for whatever he had sold (minus the comission).
Reconsideration Service changes all that. If you consign coins to a dealer for a length of time now, you had better be very confident that your consignee dealer is impeccably honest.
The reason should be obvious. Let's say you consign 100 coins to a dealer. The dealer now has a great temptation to pick out the ten best coins of your consignment and resubmit them for Reconsideration.
If one or more upgrades, say from MS66 to MS67, the dealer is only on the hook to pay you for the coin at the previously lower "consigned grade". He can sell the MS67, pay you a "strong 66 price", and you will be none the wiser!
This is actually happening in the marketplace, so, please, be careful who you consing your coins with!
Whatever did not sell got returned to you at the agreed upon time and you collected your money for whatever he had sold (minus the comission).
Reconsideration Service changes all that. If you consign coins to a dealer for a length of time now, you had better be very confident that your consignee dealer is impeccably honest.
The reason should be obvious. Let's say you consign 100 coins to a dealer. The dealer now has a great temptation to pick out the ten best coins of your consignment and resubmit them for Reconsideration.
If one or more upgrades, say from MS66 to MS67, the dealer is only on the hook to pay you for the coin at the previously lower "consigned grade". He can sell the MS67, pay you a "strong 66 price", and you will be none the wiser!
This is actually happening in the marketplace, so, please, be careful who you consing your coins with!
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Comments
<< <i>Before the introduction of Reconsideration Service one could leave coins with a dealer on consignment and in theory he would tote them around to the really big shows and thus expose them to many more buyers on your behalf.
Whatever did not sell got returned to you at the agreed upon time and you collected your money for whatever he had sold (minus the comission).
Reconsideration Service changes all that. If you consign coins to a dealer for a length of time now, you had better be very confident that your consignee dealer is impeccably honest.
The reason should be obvious. Let's say you consign 100 coins to a dealer. The dealer now has a great temptation to pick out the ten best coins of your consignment and resubmit them for Reconsideration.
If one or more upgrades, say from MS66 to MS67, the dealer is only on the hook to pay you for the coin at the previously lower "consigned grade". He can sell the MS67, pay you a "strong 66 price", and you will be none the wiser!
This is actually happening in the marketplace, so, please, be careful who you consing your coins with! >>
And if he did that and paid you what your asking price was, he did you a favor and moved your merchandise for you. which is what you hired him to do.
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He sees what you don't probably due to time and experience along with "tuition" then why shouldn't he be rewarded?
peacockcoins
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Hoard the keys.
Steve
Latin American Collection
Ultimately a consignment is that "x" is the minimum you are willing to have this coin sold for. It really makes no difference who is the one that buys it
<< <i>I do not see the problem... you have not lost any money. The dealer did the re-submission and paid the cost...you got good money for your coin. If you want to make the full profit, learn to grade, resubmit your own coins.... sounds harsh, but reality bites. Cheers, RickO >>
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
you have the choice to take the risk or not
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Let them make their living and make me happy by selling my coins.
Now if I asked a dealer first if the coin had upgrade potential and they advised me against it, it would be a different story.
<< <i>EZ fix send them in your salf and you will have no downside, Then give them to him.
Yep this sounds simple and easy alright but not including the conspiracy theories that run around as to how and to whom the best grades are given there are some real and somewhat difficult hurdles that a collector faces that a dealer might not. Just one of those is the ability to "set up" the submission to maximize the best possible outcome.
To those who think that this is OK you are wrong, if I consign a coin to a dealer to sell that is the deal at hand, in other words I have not given permission for him to do anything with that coin except sell it. And that includes any sort of resubmission without my knowledge; it's at the very least sleazy and for sure unethical imo.
I find it very telling that some who have said this scenario is fine are also those who think that a collector who buys a coin from a dealer as a 65 and upgrades it to a 66 say that the collector should offer up some of those profits back to the dealer. Seems to be a very one way street with some of you around here.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>Before the introduction of Reconsideration Service one could leave coins with a dealer on consignment and in theory he would tote them around to the really big shows and thus expose them to many more buyers on your behalf.
Whatever did not sell got returned to you at the agreed upon time and you collected your money for whatever he had sold (minus the comission).
Reconsideration Service changes all that. If you consign coins to a dealer for a length of time now, you had better be very confident that your consignee dealer is impeccably honest.
The reason should be obvious. Let's say you consign 100 coins to a dealer. The dealer now has a great temptation to pick out the ten best coins of your consignment and resubmit them for Reconsideration.
If one or more upgrades, say from MS66 to MS67, the dealer is only on the hook to pay you for the coin at the previously lower "consigned grade". He can sell the MS67, pay you a "strong 66 price", and you will be none the wiser!
This is actually happening in the marketplace, so, please, be careful who you consing your coins with! >>
So What? Don't forget that all dealers are not "all that". They may try that but it could also backfire on them and then they are stuck with the loss.
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<< <i>EZ fix send them in your salf and you will have no downside, Then give them to him.
Yep this sounds simple and easy alright but not including the conspiracy theories that run around as to how and to whom the best grades are given there are some real and somewhat difficult hurdles that a collector faces that a dealer might not. Just one of those is the ability to "set up" the submission to maximize the best possible outcome.
To those who think that this is OK you are wrong, if I consign a coin to a dealer to sell that is the deal at hand, in other words I have not given permission for him to do anything with that coin except sell it. And that includes any sort of resubmission without my knowledge; it's at the very least sleazy and for sure unethical imo.
I find it very telling that some who have said this scenario is fine are also those who think that a collector who buys a coin from a dealer as a 65 and upgrades it to a 66 say that the collector should offer up some of those profits back to the dealer. Seems to be a very one way street with some of you around here. >>
I was waiting for a response such as this to expand upon and clarify my answer to the above. While I stand by my assertion that the collector has not been harmed in the original post, I will add that it is not something I would ever consider doing with coins from a client unless the client requested the service. A basic consignment consists primarily of-
1) Client provides coins at an agreed upon net to the client upon sale.
2) Dealer works to sell client's coins to realize the client net for client and hopefully some profit for the dealer.
3) Coins and holders are not altered while in the dealer's possession.
4) Unsold coins go back to the client at a specified time or at client's request.
It can get more or less fancy based upon the parties and materials involved. In the original post, points one through four are adhered to and at least some coins are sold. What I took away from the original post is that the client might not have taken the last dollar off of the table in a sale, which if this is a concern of the client then they should be doing much more work to realize that dollar. The parts about conspiracy or offering extra money to a dealer after an upgrade are completely foreign to me and I have never written about those, so they do not apply in any manner to my posts.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
and not get the coin sold. In other words, they weren't happy making just 5 to 10% and get 'er done as agreed to. I recall consigning one coin to a major US dealer in 1990 as the market for it was peaking. I wanted
to get $50K for it. I had already turned down $45K from another dealer who was going to flip it. A few months later the coin came back unsold. The sticker attached to the coin when returned belonged to another dealer
altogether that I didn't make any deal with. The was a consigned consignment....lol. The asking price on the holder as stupidly high and no doubt most of the reason it "did not sell." Another time I had a local shop who I
thought I could truest take a bunch of my coins and mark them up 50% or so. Not one of them sold over a 2-3 month period.
What's the downside of the OP's consignment? For one there's the potential for over-exposure as your coins get shown too far too many potential buyers and they become "stale" when returned to you. I would think that
too many trips to the TPG's could make them familiar/stale as well. Maybe this was a fairly fresh group of coins that hadn't been back to the TPG's in quite some time. Selling fresher deals that haven't been picked over to
death generates better liquidity and fewer price haggles. The dealer resubmitting your coins has no ownership risk, especially as the market moves against you in price. I wish I had the opportunity to sift through hundreds
of customers coins and decide which ones I can submit "risk free" to the TPG's. My only downside is a $25-$50 grade fee. There are other drawbacks I'm sure.
I had an experience with a leading New England coin dealer in my area back in 1988. He came across some old coins from an elderly lady, one of which was a steely, dark blue toned 1896 Barber Quarter. It had been
wrapped in tissue paper with a hand written note stating it was a gift or birthday present around time of issue. No doubt the coin was a gem, just a matter of how gemmy. The dealer wasn't really up on the grading services
at that time so I offered to send it in. I expected to get a MS66 grade, he would have been happy with anything from 64 and up based on what the paid for it....lol. But, he knew it was an all there gem coin. Well, it came back
MS65 from NGC. I was happy because I was thinking I could buy it from him and try it again. But, in talking to him and let him know that I honestly felt the coin was better than gem. Not likely he would have tried it again had
I given it back to him. So, I tried it again and it went MS66. Rather than getting $3,000 or so the coin was now worth $6,000. He was very happy and I get a pat on the back for being honest with him. I did end up buying
the coin from him and made $500 or so. He knew I made him some money and allowed me to make a decent flip. I like to think that over the next decade or so it earned me some "points" with this dealer. In some respects
he was a mentor of mine over a period of 25 years. Ironically, such a deeply toned coin today would have little chance of making MS66 in today's "flash drive" market. In essence, this guy consigned/entrusted his coin to me
and I maximized his dollars. I didn't ethically "have to" as this was a dealer to dealer transaction at the time.
My worst consignment event of all time? That's easy. I consigned $20K in MS64 saints to a NJ dealer who sold them all off immediately...and then dragged his feet on paying me the last $11K owed. The dealer eventually
went bankrupt after the 1990-1993 market bust and stiffed me for $11K. Be careful on your consignments gents even from people who come highly recommended. There wasn't a dealer I asked that didn't have great things
to say about this guy. And he was/is an ANA life member as well as belonging to every major numis organization except PNG. Oh, and this guy is back in business today near his old location in central NJ. I still do
consignments, but only with a guy who I've known for 30 yrs and shared numerous tables with over the years.
<< <i>Yeah, the person may get the price they agreed to, but it still seems the dealer is acting like a weisal. >>
A dealer with integrity and worth their salt would be telling the consignor if there is money being left on the table. After all, what's the dealer's consignment fee for....minimizing the consignor's dollars?
It's one thing if this is being done dealer to dealer as both sides are pros. But this is dealer to customer/collector. It's quite the norm where collectors underestimate the value of their good coins and
overestimate the value of their problem or less desirable coins. I'm also well aware that many (or even most) LCS's don't care about informing their customers or making competitive offers. The offer
only has to be more competitive than the shop in the next town over. And if you tell them what the other guy offered you, well then he has you. I think the term "client" shouldn't be used here as that
suggests full service treatment to me. How about the term the used car dealers use: "up" or "mark"? I've been on both sides of the table here and I've always been amazed at how this and other collectible
businesses typically run.
This is also the first time I've heard about this "reconsideration" service.
I had a certain coin in 64 once, a big money coin. I wasn't really "into" the coin, but recognised its PQ-ness, and figured I could buy it, consign it, and make $500 for my trouble. So, I sent it to my trusted dealer. When he got the coin, he actually called me up and said: "I think we should try to get this coin upgraded and split the profit." Now granted, in retrospect, I might have figured on getting an even better deal out of it, but being on the front end, and wanting to do right by my dealer-friend, I agreed. And guess what: first try, upgrade. BOOM. He/we sold the coin, and I made at least a 60 percent profit in five weeks time. Waaay better than $500, for sure.
Now, as for the OP's scenario, while I don't really like it, if I were dealing with dealers that I didn't know as well as the one above, I would chalk it up to the cost of doing business. Unscrupulous, yes. Dishonest? Not exactly.
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>I do not see the problem... you have not lost any money. The dealer did the re-submission and paid the cost...you got good money for your coin. If you want to make the full profit, learn to grade, resubmit your own coins.... sounds harsh, but reality bites. Cheers, RickO >>
Agree. The dealer paid for the reconsideration so he should reap any reward for an upgrade. What if none of the coins upgraded? The dealer would be the only loser.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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Agree. The dealer paid for the reconsideration so he should reap any reward for an upgrade. What if none of the coins upgraded? The dealer would be the only loser. >>
This, besides if you send your coins to sell and agree to the terms, why care who buys them or what happens after that. Thank the dealer for making a quick sale.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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<< <i>I do not see the problem... you have not lost any money. The dealer did the re-submission and paid the cost...you got good money for your coin. If you want to make the full profit, learn to grade, resubmit your own coins.... sounds harsh, but reality bites. Cheers, RickO >>
Agree. The dealer paid for the reconsideration so he should reap any reward for an upgrade. What if none of the coins upgraded? The dealer would be the only loser. >>
Your logic is flawed, the most basic issue here is that the consignment item is not the property of the dealer, it belongs to the owner and by law it cannot be changed or altered without permission. If a dealer were to do as the op lays out, take a consignment coin and convert it into another holder/grade without the owner’s permission, he is committing a crime simple as that. The dealer has converted your property for his own financial gain. Any way you slice it its wrong and those of you that are trying to justify this behavior need to seek help with your ethics.
And to play your game PerryHall, what if it downgrades?? Biased on your statement it's ok for him to upgrade the coin without sharing any of the gain, so following your logic it must be ok to send it back now worth less than it was right??
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Latin American Collection
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<< <i>I do not see the problem... you have not lost any money. The dealer did the re-submission and paid the cost...you got good money for your coin. If you want to make the full profit, learn to grade, resubmit your own coins.... sounds harsh, but reality bites. Cheers, RickO >>
Agree. The dealer paid for the reconsideration so he should reap any reward for an upgrade. What if none of the coins upgraded? The dealer would be the only loser. >>
Your logic is flawed, the most basic issue here is that the consignment item is not the property of the dealer, it belongs to the owner and by law it cannot be changed or altered without permission. If a dealer were to do as the op lays out, take a consignment coin and convert it into another holder/grade without the owner’s permission, he is committing a crime simple as that. The dealer has converted your property for his own financial gain. Any way you slice it its wrong and those of you that are trying to justify this behavior need to seek help with your ethics.
And to play your game PerryHall, what if it downgrades?? Biased on your statement it's ok for him to upgrade the coin without sharing any of the gain, so following your logic it must be ok to send it back now worth less than it was right?? >>
I must say I would not do this. But to avert the crime senario I would say that the coin has been sold if it upgraded!
If this is upsetting to some, it's likely because they wish they had taken the chance on reconsideration themselves.
However... Not your OGH or even 2011 insert. Old number
Do I have this right?
I believe this is the first time a service has had this feature. If this is so, then when the coins are returned, the consignor's inventory control might be satisfied by this numeric match-up.
Collectors would know more of their coins by sight
Of course, if I feel one of their coins is grossly undergraded I would certainly recommend a regrade/reconsideration, but it is their coin and their decision... as well as their gain if it does upgrade and I'll get extra compensation as my consignment fee will now be taken off a higher resale amount.
When a customer first gives me coins for consignment, I also never buy any of them for myself. Sure, I may think some of them are great deals at their net price, but I'm being trusted to try to get more for those coins if possible. If I think they are undervalued and were to cherrypick them out of the consignment for myself that would be cheating my clients. The only time I'll try to buy coins consigned to me for myself is after I've had them for awhile and a client is ready to take them back. If I still want a coin or two, only then after trying to sell it for them I'll make an offer.
Does it surprise me that some dealers do this with their clients' coins? Of course not. Did I experience dealers who treated me wrong when I consigned coins in the past? Of course. But I also experienced some really great dealers who I fully trusted to put my best interests first, not their own. Again, as the OP advised, be careful who you consign with.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
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<< <i>I do not see the problem... you have not lost any money. The dealer did the re-submission and paid the cost...you got good money for your coin. If you want to make the full profit, learn to grade, resubmit your own coins.... sounds harsh, but reality bites. Cheers, RickO >>
Agree. The dealer paid for the reconsideration so he should reap any reward for an upgrade. What if none of the coins upgraded? The dealer would be the only loser. >>
Your logic is flawed, the most basic issue here is that the consignment item is not the property of the dealer, it belongs to the owner and by law it cannot be changed or altered without permission. If a dealer were to do as the op lays out, take a consignment coin and convert it into another holder/grade without the owner’s permission, he is committing a crime simple as that. The dealer has converted your property for his own financial gain. Any way you slice it its wrong and those of you that are trying to justify this behavior need to seek help with your ethics.
And to play your game PerryHall, what if it downgrades?? Biased on your statement it's ok for him to upgrade the coin without sharing any of the gain, so following your logic it must be ok to send it back now worth less than it was right?? >>
If the coin downgrades, the dealer just bought it at your original asking price less any commission.
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<< <i>I do not see the problem... you have not lost any money. The dealer did the re-submission and paid the cost...you got good money for your coin. If you want to make the full profit, learn to grade, resubmit your own coins.... sounds harsh, but reality bites. Cheers, RickO >>
Agree. The dealer paid for the reconsideration so he should reap any reward for an upgrade. What if none of the coins upgraded? The dealer would be the only loser. >>
Your logic is flawed, the most basic issue here is that the consignment item is not the property of the dealer, it belongs to the owner and by law it cannot be changed or altered without permission. If a dealer were to do as the op lays out, take a consignment coin and convert it into another holder/grade without the owner’s permission, he is committing a crime simple as that. The dealer has converted your property for his own financial gain. Any way you slice it its wrong and those of you that are trying to justify this behavior need to seek help with your ethics.
And to play your game PerryHall, what if it downgrades?? Biased on your statement it's ok for him to upgrade the coin without sharing any of the gain, so following your logic it must be ok to send it back now worth less than it was right?? >>
If the coin downgrades, the dealer just bought it at your original asking price less any commission. >>
Doesn't the grading service then owe the submitter some money if there's a downgrade?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>And to play your game PerryHall, what if it downgrades?? >>
I'm not PerryHall, but I'll play.
It appears that downgrading is not possible under the Reconsideration Service...
RECONSIDERATION: Use the Reconsideration service if you would
like to have your coin regraded without being removed from its current
holder. If your coin’s grade is determined to improve by one numeric point
or more, it will be cracked out of its current holder, given the new grade, and
placed in a new holder.
<< <i>There CAN be a very real downside to the Reconsideration Service >>
So you want to blame a grading tier for your hypothetical dealer's questionable behavior? With all due respect, that's silly.
Coin Rarities Online
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<< <i>I do not see the problem... you have not lost any money. The dealer did the re-submission and paid the cost...you got good money for your coin. If you want to make the full profit, learn to grade, resubmit your own coins.... sounds harsh, but reality bites. Cheers, RickO >>
Agree. The dealer paid for the reconsideration so he should reap any reward for an upgrade. What if none of the coins upgraded? The dealer would be the only loser. >>
Your logic is flawed, the most basic issue here is that the consignment item is not the property of the dealer, it belongs to the owner and by law it cannot be changed or altered without permission. If a dealer were to do as the op lays out, take a consignment coin and convert it into another holder/grade without the owner’s permission, he is committing a crime simple as that. The dealer has converted your property for his own financial gain. Any way you slice it its wrong and those of you that are trying to justify this behavior need to seek help with your ethics.
And to play your game PerryHall, what if it downgrades?? Biased on your statement it's ok for him to upgrade the coin without sharing any of the gain, so following your logic it must be ok to send it back now worth less than it was right?? >>
If the coin downgrades, the dealer just bought it at your original asking price less any commission. >>
Doesn't the grading service then owe the submitter some money if there's a downgrade? >>
Yes, but if there is any deficiency between what PCGS gives for compensation and the value placed by the consignor then that is on the dealer. At any rate, if the owner doesn't want it back at the new lower grade, then the dealer owns it. It appears when looking at the info that there is little chance of a downgrade, since there is no mention of what happens if the coin downgrades. I expect if it is that far off, that PCGS would recommend resubmission under the guarantee submission service.
<< <i>... you had better be very confident that your consignee dealer is impeccably honest. >>
If you haven't done this and the worst that happens is that he gets himself an upgrade, you can consider yourself very lucky.
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<< <i>I don't really see any harm to the collector in this scenario other than the collector did not think of doing this first. >>
This doesn't sit well with me at all Tom which I find unusual because I can't remember disagreeing with anything you've ever said on the forum. So I wonder if you'll think I'm off my rocker?
For ME, it's one thing if we're talking about "selling" coins to a dealer while another thing entirely when we are talking about a "consignment". In the past, after I've "sold" coins to a dealer, I expect he/she will to do everything in their power including upgrading, resubmitting, re-holdering, attributing varieties etc to maximize their profit. I wouldn't expect anything in return even if they hit the lottery while doing so. I "sell" material for liquidity knowing I leave profit on the table.
But when I consign coins, it's much different. And my thinking aligns with Illini420. I consign my very very best material and sacrifice liquidity for profit. This is explicitly understood by my dealer. And my dealer expects my A+ material and in return he knows his job is to absolutely maximize both of our profits with the best possible sale price. When the arrangement maximizes both our profits, it's a marriage.
I will tell you who I am offline, but you have actually sat with me in Baltimore when I've consigned my best toned material to a dealer friend/associate of yours. That's the material I'm talking about. I work incredibly hard to find material like that, which is in short supply, and so I don't sell it off quickly, I consign it with the expectation that the dealer and I would both share in any good fortune that were to fall on us and our coins in common.
Maybe this is a bad analogy, but if I asked my wife to sell a family car and told her to ask 5k for it, and she was able to sell it for 7k because she learned through hard work that it had a desirable upgrade, I wouldn't expect her to pocket the difference without telling me.
Edited for Grammar and Clarity
It may or may not have been noticed that I wrote a second post to this thread and the contents of my contribution to that second post are quoted below for ease of reference-
"I was waiting for a response such as this to expand upon and clarify my answer to the above. While I stand by my assertion that the collector has not been harmed in the original post, I will add that it is not something I would ever consider doing with coins from a client unless the client requested the service. A basic consignment consists primarily of-
1) Client provides coins at an agreed upon net to the client upon sale.
2) Dealer works to sell client's coins to realize the client net for client and hopefully some profit for the dealer.
3) Coins and holders are not altered while in the dealer's possession.
4) Unsold coins go back to the client at a specified time or at client's request.
It can get more or less fancy based upon the parties and materials involved. In the original post, points one through four are adhered to and at least some coins are sold. What I took away from the original post is that the client might not have taken the last dollar off of the table in a sale, which if this is a concern of the client then they should be doing much more work to realize that dollar. The parts about conspiracy or offering extra money to a dealer after an upgrade are completely foreign to me and I have never written about those, so they do not apply in any manner to my posts."
Before I add more to this, please let me reiterate that I would never send a client's coin in for reconsideration without the prior permission and knowledge of the client. I simply do not believe such actions would be the right thing to do and I treat others the way that I would like to be treated. However, this discussion has already veered away from the original response of mine, which was with respect to the client having produced sales, and has gone down the avenue of the responsibilities of the parties involved. The difference might be subtle, but if the original post was set up slightly differently then we might be seeing different responses.
One of the difficulties in getting everyone on the same page without confusion is that consignments do not all occur under one set of universal parameters. I have had clients consign coins to me with one or more of the following stipulations-
1) The coin(s) must be offered to people A, B or C first.
2) The coin(s) may not be specifically offered to people D, E or F.
3) The coin(s) may not appear on my website.
4) The coin(s) must be returned by a specific date.
5) The coin(s) are to be kept by me until their eventual sale.
6) The coin(s) have a hard net to the client and anything above is for me.
7) The coin(s) have a floating net to the client based upon what they sell for.
8) The coin(s) are consigned with the client providing a price based upon experience and research.
9) The coin(s) are consigned with the client asking for all prices to be determined by me based upon my own experience and research.
Consignments also are made of a mixture of material that might be-
1) The very best coins that the client has ever or might ever produce.
2) Material that was collected in the past, but that has no real meaning to the client, other than as a trade for cash, at this time.
3) Coins that were purchased for resale because they were being sold at levels that were too attractive to pass.
4) Pieces that somehow managed to fall into a collection that do not belong there and might not be all that nice.
Lastly, consignments come with various levels of motivation from clients that might include-
1) Sales that should be done as soon as possible because the funds are needed for a family emergency.
2) Sales that can be done when the money is right because the client is simply attempting to build up reserve funds for an unidentified future purchase.
3) Sales that are driven by the hope of purchasing an already identified piece.
4) Sales that have no particular incentive to occur, but are offered for any number of reasons.
As one might surmise, the individual driver for sale on consignments can vary significantly from one client to another and the methodology for going about the sales can vary wildly, too. Therefore, a discussion such as the current discussion is bound to set off all manner of alarms and whistles for many collectors and dealers because each of us reads into the discussion many of the events that we have lived through or ways that we attempt to come to terms with others. For me, consignments are driven by what the client needs and how I can deliver upon those needs and perhaps supply additional services.
Given all the above, I read the original post as one where a client would give a group of coins to a dealer and each coin would have a hard net to the client as its goal and that this hard net to the client would be a number that the client would be happy to receive for the coin upon its sale. The goal of this client is to have each coin disappear and in its place have a certain amount of cash. The dealer in question might then be free to offer the coins very broadly (via ebay or CCE), less broadly (on the dealer's website or mailing list), in a more restricted manner (live at shows to the public, to tabled dealers or to known crack-out specialists) or in a very restricted manner (to specifically chosen clients). The dealer's mission in this case would be to make the client's goal a reality and hopefully have something left over for the dealer. In this scenario the dealer chose to partner with a known crack-out specialist (PCGS Reconsideration Service) and to make certain that the client's goals were achieved in a timely manner with something left over for the dealer.
Now, do I believe the above paragraph is how someone should treat a client? No, not at all. I not only do not believe that a client should be treated that way, but also think that a dealer who does that has not performed to the best of their abilities for the client. However, and this is likely where some of the rub comes in, do I think the client is a wee, innocent lamb who is at the mercy of the dealer? No, not at all. In fact, there is nothing that restricts the client from working with the known crack-out specialist prior to working with the dealer.
So, I don't think you are off your rocker at all, but I do think that each of us goes into this thread with our own experiences and preconceived notions and then reads it with a particular bent based upon them to produce a question, scenario or sequence of events that is somewhat unique. I answered the question essentially by stating that if the client wanted to maximize every dollar that the client might be expected to do some remedial homework or put in some effort. This is not the same as saying that the dealer was acting in an altruistic manner or that the dealer was engaging in something that I would do. Personally, my clients have tremendous freedom in how a consignment proceeds, they get paid quickly, the coins are controlled by the client throughout the process and parameters can change based upon any number of factors. Most importantly, I treat my clients the way that I would want to be treated and I can assure you that I would want to be treated honestly and to be treated well.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I like a lot of the thinking posted here. I probably wouldn't continue consignment business with a dealer who played this game without consulting me in advance, but I wouldn't be up in arms about it either. I'd blame myself for not seeing the opportunity and then try to learn from it.
Lance.
<< <i>Regrade, reconsideration, spot review...I think any submission can downgrade. >>
PCGS does not seem to agree.
Reconsideration is a new service level from PCGS that allows you to submit your coins for regrading without the risk of a potential crack out if the coin does not receive an upgrade.
Why Reconsideration?
There's no risk of losing your original labeling if your coin does not upgrade.
But if PCGS thinks they made a major mistake with the grade then I believe they will try to fix it. No? Perhaps they will negotiate.
Lance.
<< <i>But if PCGS thinks they made a major mistake with the grade then I believe they will try to fix it. No? >>
Not according to the PCGS link I provided. There are only two options- upgrade and get a new holder or the coin is returned in the old holder.
Considering the topic of this thread, what are the odds that a dealer would submit for reconsideration in hopes of an upgrade a coin so badly overgraded that it would get downgraded despite PCGS's apparent claims to the contrary?
edited to add... if you're coinsigning to a dealer who can't tell the difference between a good shot at an upgrade and a major grading mistake, you've got more problems than the one originally posted, IMO.
Of course, the chances of anyone thinking a coin like that would upgrade and then submitting it for reconsideration is likely very small.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Regarding the possibility of downgrade on a Reconsideration submission, I believe Lance is correct and that the PCGS website is incorrect. >>
That is, of course always possible. I am only going by the information PCGS provides on their website.
<< <i>Do you really think PCGS is going to let a coin that has turned in the holder, a mechanical error or a coin that is obviously overgraded just go back out into the market if they have the opportunity to make it right? >>
Ignoring the mechanical error possibility (not relevant to this discussion), that's definitely an interesting question. If PCGS is saying that they will not return such a coin to the person it belongs to unaltered, are they not claiming some sort of ownership right in the coin/holder?
edited for clarity...
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I suppose the dealer should have informed you and perhaps gotten your opinion but nobody ever said that the coin business wasn't brutal at times.
The name is LEE!