Yesterday, I Examined a Quantity of Counterfeit Gold Coins - All in Fake PCGS Holders
CharlotteDude
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I tried posting this yesterday evening, but the servers were whacked -
About 15 Indian Quarter Eagles, almost the entire date-run, lacking only the 1914-D, including dupe 1928's, as well as 5-6 Indian Half Eagles, and 3 Indian Eagles - 23-24 total. A young gentleman who also works at the same, very large government establishment in which I'm employed, offered to sell the lot. When I examined the coins, the first 4-5 I looked at displayed all the same washed out look, blurry detail, etc. At first blush they looked like problem coins in PCGS holders. Most were PCGS AU-58 graded w/the only exception being the 1911-D QE, which was PCGS XF-45. Even that coin had the same look... suspicious. I then started looking more closely at the holders. Inserts were a faded blue coloration, and looked like they had been printed off of a mid-quality personal printer. All were wavy in the holder, lettering/numbering was somewhat blurry on all of them, with the skew codes cut "short" along the bottom, meaning they weren't fully printed out as one would find on a legitimate PCGS insert. The back-side PCGS emblems looked like cheap/blurry laminations. Many of the holders had lint or even small fuzz balls encased in them, some of the fuzz was on the coins themselves. The guy told me he acquired a few from his grandfather, but purchased most from a couple shops in his home state (he more recently moved to Maryland), as well as a few from Craigslist. I told the guy I was 99% sure that every one of the coins was counterfeit and in counterfeit PCGS holders. Each holder looked like it was "made" by the same "manufacturer" and every coin had the same look to it, which caused me to have doubts about his acquiring them from the various sources noted above. Since I decided there was no way I'd purchase a single one, I suggested he take them all to the Baltimore show (he told me he planned to go either Thursday afternoon or Friday) to have either PCGS look at them, or find a dealer who is knowledgeable in the Indian gold series to examine them and render their opinion. I thought PCGS would want to know about them, therefore urged him to take them to their table first. Whether this kid actually takes the coins to the Baltimore show is yet to be seen, but I wanted everyone to know about them.
If his story on how he acquired the coins is correct, and if he really paid AU-58 money for them, he just learned a very expensive and unfortunate lesson.
'dude
About 15 Indian Quarter Eagles, almost the entire date-run, lacking only the 1914-D, including dupe 1928's, as well as 5-6 Indian Half Eagles, and 3 Indian Eagles - 23-24 total. A young gentleman who also works at the same, very large government establishment in which I'm employed, offered to sell the lot. When I examined the coins, the first 4-5 I looked at displayed all the same washed out look, blurry detail, etc. At first blush they looked like problem coins in PCGS holders. Most were PCGS AU-58 graded w/the only exception being the 1911-D QE, which was PCGS XF-45. Even that coin had the same look... suspicious. I then started looking more closely at the holders. Inserts were a faded blue coloration, and looked like they had been printed off of a mid-quality personal printer. All were wavy in the holder, lettering/numbering was somewhat blurry on all of them, with the skew codes cut "short" along the bottom, meaning they weren't fully printed out as one would find on a legitimate PCGS insert. The back-side PCGS emblems looked like cheap/blurry laminations. Many of the holders had lint or even small fuzz balls encased in them, some of the fuzz was on the coins themselves. The guy told me he acquired a few from his grandfather, but purchased most from a couple shops in his home state (he more recently moved to Maryland), as well as a few from Craigslist. I told the guy I was 99% sure that every one of the coins was counterfeit and in counterfeit PCGS holders. Each holder looked like it was "made" by the same "manufacturer" and every coin had the same look to it, which caused me to have doubts about his acquiring them from the various sources noted above. Since I decided there was no way I'd purchase a single one, I suggested he take them all to the Baltimore show (he told me he planned to go either Thursday afternoon or Friday) to have either PCGS look at them, or find a dealer who is knowledgeable in the Indian gold series to examine them and render their opinion. I thought PCGS would want to know about them, therefore urged him to take them to their table first. Whether this kid actually takes the coins to the Baltimore show is yet to be seen, but I wanted everyone to know about them.
If his story on how he acquired the coins is correct, and if he really paid AU-58 money for them, he just learned a very expensive and unfortunate lesson.
'dude
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<< <i>
+1
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
No - unfortunately, I was at work -- no cameras allowed. We met in the building's cafeteria, and I didn't have a pen/pencil or any paper, so I couldn't write down any of the cert numbers either. I asked him if he had ever looked them up in the PCGS website. He said he had, and they all sync'd up, however if the counterfeiters had any sense, they would've hijacked valid cert numbers to avoid any suspicion.
'dude
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
While I would agree with that statement in most cases, this was a young guy, maybe 20-24 yrs old. He seemed very naive and not well versed in coins. I think that yes, the story about his sources is highly suspect... he probably purchased them from the same source, off of Ebay or some other venue. He did tell me the primary dealer from which he claimed to have purchased the majority of the coins, but I know those guys. I've frequented their shop every time I've visited the state/area, and have examined a large number and purchased some coins there. I don't recall ever seeing a coin that looked like these examples, nor in holders like these in their establishment.
One interesting observation for me, is that he didn't seem upset, nor all that surprised at my assertion the coins were counterfeit. He seemed to take it in stride, stating that he was going to take them to the Baltimore show to get a 2nd opinion.
'dude
Totally agree... that one seems to always come into play when the seller tries to legitimize a tale.
'dude
This has got to be of great concern for PCGS. You can’t let knock-off crap like this ruin your brand name. Unfortunately many gold coin buyers are not sophisticated enough to spot fakes like this. They see the holder and assume that the coins are genuine.
Of course this young guy could just be a crook who is involved in distributing this stuff with a "rooster and bull story" to make it look legitimate, as others have said.
<< <i>One interesting observation for me, is that he didn't seem upset, nor all that surprised at my assertion the coins were counterfeit. He seemed to take it in stride, stating that he was going to take them to the Baltimore show to get a 2nd opinion. >>
Young guy, 20-24 yrs old, with a skeptical story as to the multiple sources for fake coins that look the same, and not upset after
being told ~$20k in coins he'd recently purchased were fakes? Hmmmm........
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>He is in on it. >>
<< <i>Take any pics you could post??
No - unfortunately, I was at work -- no cameras allowed.
'dude >>
Why no cameras allowed???
EAC 6024
<< <i>
<< <i>One interesting observation for me, is that he didn't seem upset, nor all that surprised at my assertion the coins were counterfeit. He seemed to take it in stride, stating that he was going to take them to the Baltimore show to get a 2nd opinion. >>
Young guy, 20-24 yrs old, with a skeptical story as to the multiple sources for fake coins that look the same, and not upset after
being told ~$20k in coins he'd recently purchased were fakes? Hmmmm........ >>
Does sound strange - - I think the usual reactions might be:
1. Screaming.
2. Asking how that could happen.
3. Insisting the coins were genuine.
4. Stating he never heard of counterfeit coins in counterfeit holders.
5. insisting that he would get his money back from the person who sold him the coins.
6. Wondering how EVERY coin could be counterfeit.
etc.
I could probably come up with 20 more before I got to "not being upset or surprised".
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i> Young guy, 20-24 yrs old, with a skeptical story as to the multiple sources for fake coins that look the same, and not upset after being told ~$20k in coins he'd recently purchased were fakes? Hmmmm........ >>
sellers story just doesnt add up. grandfather? yeah right. OP, you should have written down his license plate and called the police.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Whether this kid actually takes the coins to the Baltimore show is yet to be seen, but I wanted everyone to know about them. >>
I highly doubt he'll go anywhere near the Baltimore show. I think he's probably dirty, from the sounds of things.
Edited to add the observation that he might just be the street-level "pusher" of this stuff, and not the manufacturer.
There are probably bigger fish behind the scenes.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
It would have played as a better story if they were all "grandfather" coins. The part grandfather and part purchased
adds suspicion to the story. What are the chances that bogus slabbed coins in similar slabs also came from
two different dealers?
For that matter, what are the chances that a guy in his low 20s is collecting PCGS slabbed gold Indians?
'dude >>
Assuming facts not in evidence!
Joe.
Because it's a US government facility, on a military installation.
'dude
That's a good question. Whereas all factors point to his most likely being fully aware of the coins'/holders' questionable origin, he could always claim he didn't know... purchased them unknowingly... cry "I'm a newbie". So I'm not certain where the law factors here. I did ask him to let me know what comes of his taking them to the Baltimore show. I will try contacting him early next week to find out. As far as I know, there's nothing unlawful about owning a counterfeit coin.... many collectors own examples of such.
I will say this... if he continues to try to sell them here at work, I will intervene.
'dude
I went back to the jeweler and showed him, even cut a couple of them and put them up on the scale after testing and showed the purity and weight as I would still buy them, only I would cut them in half and buy and sell them as metal value only. He told me he'd just put them in the safe ( a Lie ). A week later he had a bunch of them in part of a showcase, now all mounted in bezels for necklaces, rings etc with the bezel just covering up the uneven star formations and that store sold them as real.
Watch it out there, there's all kinds of weird deals and people to go along with them.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Plenty of folks have never heard of a fake slab, and trust them without a second glance. On another coin forum, they still often use the old cliche to buy certified, and that stopped being safe online a long time ago. Sounds like the slab fakers are stepping up, branching out and expanding operations. At this point few corners of the numismatic kingdom are safe. From the story, it appears that these were relatively low quality fakes, both the coins and the holders. There are higher quality ones out there (like the ones that fooled a Heritage employee).
Be careful out there.
<< <i>How legal is it to offer these for sale like he did?
That's a good question. Whereas all factors point to his most likely being fully aware of the coins'/holders' questionable origin, he could always claim he didn't know... purchased them unknowingly... cry "I'm a newbie". So I'm not certain where the law factors here. I did ask him to let me know what comes of his taking them to the Baltimore show. I will try contacting him early next week to find out. As far as I know, there's nothing unlawful about owning a counterfeit coin.... many collectors own examples of such.
I will say this... if he continues to try to sell them here at work, I will intervene.
'dude >>
Does he maintain an active security clearance? If so I would report him to your security officer and let them sort it if his story is legit. Attempting to sell 20k of counterfeit items at work is a major charter flaw in all but a very small % of possible scenarios and needs to be addressed. I would have called the base police on the spot, if he has receipts and what not he is easily cleared and if he is looking for a quick illegal buck he is a classic security risk. I am over at the Pentagon, PM me if I can be of assistance.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
- Abraham Lincoln
<< <i>Does he maintain an active security clearance? If so I would report him to your security officer and let them sort it if his story is legit. >>
Exactly what I was thinking. Back when I worked for a defense contractor, it was expected that anyone with a security clearance be vigilant for suspicious activity of anyone else with a security clearance and report it through appropriate channels. They will take it seriously. In addition, let our hosts know to keep an eye out for the coins and their owner in Baltimore, and try and find out if they show up at the show.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Doesn't belong in an area with clearance required.
I think it is your duty to bring this to the attention of your CO.
He is a security risk.
Mike
W.C. Fields
'dude