What happened here? (real VG 1907 Indian struck by a fake 1909 Lincoln die)
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EagleEye
Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here is a strange coin. Please post your thoughts. So as not to sway anyone to think one thing or another, I will post my opinion tomorrow.
Here is the obverse:
The reverse:
This is the edge:
Close up of the ONE CENT:
Close up of the wreath:
Close up of GOD:
Here is the obverse:
The reverse:
This is the edge:
Close up of the ONE CENT:
Close up of the wreath:
Close up of GOD:
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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Comments
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Umm, I'll tell you what happened here: AWESOME. Awesome happened here.
PS- Awesome coin.How I pay the bills:
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/0 -
Counterfeit 1909 s VDB over a real 1907 IHC as a test strike?0
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It almost looks like the 1907 Indian was struck over the 1909 Lincoln.
A time traveling coin?
...Probably not. 
Counterfeit dies. 0 -
<< <i>It almost looks like the 1907 Indian was struck over the 1909 Lincoln.
A time traveling coin? ...Probably not. Counterfeit dies. >>
+1. It definitely looks like the IHC was struck over the Lincoln. Are the Chinese trying to muscle into the errors market now too?0 -
How do you tell that the dies are counterfeit?
My first thought was the night shift was fooling around . . .
HHNeed the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set:
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!0 -
Not sure what it is... but I'm sure I want it for my 1909 set!!!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
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<< <i>Counterfeit 1909 s VDB over a real 1907 IHC as a test strike? >>
I'm thinking the exact opposite. Counterfeit 1907 over a 1909.
Not enough device flattening for an authentic strike IOM.I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
The name is LEE!0 -
To me, way too much shows of the Indian cent's design, and too little shows of the Lincoln cent's design, for this to be genuine.
If you examine more recent cents struck over struck dimes, much more of the 2nd strike shows than the 1st strike.
Just my opinion.0 -
Fake, The lincoln cent should have a way stronger strike.0
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I think it is not a genuine error.0
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Skilled Photoshop lesson? Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection0
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Probably not a legit mint error but still pretty darn cool looking."If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
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Minimum wage worker in China set wrong dies in machine?
--------T O M---------
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<< <i>Skilled Photoshop lesson? >>
Beat me to it
StevePromote the Hobby0 -
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I'll go with dcarr: fake 1909 over genuine 1907
Nobody has mentioned Rick's helpful picture of the edge, which shows horizontal striations. Real coins struck in collars don't have horizontal striations on the edge, so something is wrong. I can't tell from the pics if the horizontal striations are related to the wacky obverse/reverse issues or they're just a red herring. Considering that Rick provided the picture in the first place, I have a feeling they must be related... Maybe someone ground it down to the correct diameter after the second strike caused it to stretch a bit?0 -
The Lincoln design elements would be reversed and incused if it was a vise job.0
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The 1907 IHC was put in a vice with a soft die made from a 1909 cent.
It made the diameter slightly bigger since there's no collar and then they filed the rim/edge to get the diameter back to normal which is why the lines on the rim go in the wrong direction.
Ed0 -
<< <i>The Lincoln design elements would be reversed and incused if it was a vise job. >>
I agree with this, both designs are raised not incused. Still don't have a clue though.
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<< <i>To me, way too much shows of the Indian cent's design, and too little shows of the Lincoln cent's design, for this to be genuine.
If you examine more recent cents struck over struck dimes, much more of the 2nd strike shows than the 1st strike.
Just my opinion. >>
Exactly what I thought. But it is still cool even if it is fake 0 -
The reason the Lincoln image is not incuse is because it was squeezed with a soft die made from a 1909 Lincoln not the Lincoln itself.
A soft die is what you get if you take 2 pieces of soft metal and squeeze a coin in between them.
They made the soft die from the Lincoln then put the IHC in it and squeezed.
It increased the diameter because there's no collar so they filed it down to size and it made the lines on the rim going in the wrong direction from what would normally be on a punched planchet.Ed0 -
False die overstrike.Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.0
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<< <i>
<< <i>To me, way too much shows of the Indian cent's design, and too little shows of the Lincoln cent's design, for this to be genuine.
If you examine more recent cents struck over struck dimes, much more of the 2nd strike shows than the 1st strike.
Just my opinion. >>
Exactly what I thought. >>
Obviously, great minds think alike. 0 -
I suspect we have a second strike from good-quality counterfeit Lincoln cent dies. The second strike was relatively weak, which alone doesn't disqualify it as a genuine error since weak second strikes are well-documented in every denomination. What makes this suspicious is the strength of LIBERTY and the date, areas where the Lincoln cent design should have struck up poorly (or not at all) given how weak Lincoln's bust appears over the Indian's bust.Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.0
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<< <i>The reason the Lincoln image is not incuse is because it was squeezed with a soft die made from a 1909 Lincoln not the Lincoln itself.
A soft die is what you get if you take 2 pieces of soft metal and squeeze a coin in between them.
They made the soft die from the Lincoln then put the IHC in it and squeezed.
It increased the diameter because there's no collar so they filed it down to size and it made the lines on the rim going in the wrong direction from what would normally be on a punched planchet. >>
OK, I can grasp the concept. What type of metal would you use in this instance? The Lincoln mottos and lettering are spot on for a correct Lincoln. Don't see any signs of counterfeit, so your explanation would support
that.0 -
<<OK, I can grasp the concept. What type of metal would you use in this instance? The Lincoln mottos and lettering are spot on for a correct Lincoln. Don't see any signs of counterfeit, so your explanation would support
that. >>
Not sure the metal they use but something softer and easier to work with than than a coin die. It won't last long because it's soft but enough to put an image on one other coin.
Maybe they heat up to soften the metal while making the die and or soften the host coin they use it on.
Ed0 -
The close up of the wreath and of God reveals a very unusual and harried surface on the rims edge. Something is amiss.
Eric0 -
<< <i>A genuine 1907 Indian Head Cent, with a home vice "squeeze" job. >>
Unless the home vice guy had a Lincoln die, this isn't correct.“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.0 -
Lots of interesting opinions....None of the features are incuse, so, for me, it is not a vise job...very interesting though.. will await the experts. Cheers, RickO0
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<< <i>False die overstrike. >>
Correct. And in three words or less. Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire0 -
cast fake. die is first pressed with one real coin, then the other. Cast is made from the die that looks like that which could be why there is a lack of flattening. Also note the sanding or grinding lines on the rim.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
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I'd have to say fake die over the 1907 Indian Head cent. One note; the Lincoln cent overstrike appears to be uneven, in that one side is stronger than the other; this would imply to me that the fake Lincoln die was 'hammered' more strongly on one side. You can see this when looking at IN GOD WE TRUST; the IN GOD portion is hardly there, which is the weakly struck side, but WE TRUST is strong. The corresponding side on the reverse shows the same type of uneven strike, with the wheat on one side much stronger than the other. Perhaps this was the result of trying to make sure the date shows up much stronger on the final coin. Of course, there are genuine coins with uneven strikes, so this alone does not mean its fake; just makes one suspicious.
But the rim... the horizontal striations just aren't right. Not for a struck coin. Certainly appears to have been 'size adjusted' by grinding, etc. One of the closeup photos also show the striations overlapping onto the face side of the rim.
If the size of the coin had to be adjusted by grinding some of the rim, perhaps that should show in the weight of the coin. Ricko, what is the weight of the coin?
Certainly I would still continue to have the coin checked out, but at this point I would say our friends the Chinese have provided us with another challenge.
----- kj0 -
One other thing kind of stands out to me.... though it's hard to tell conclusively because of the overstrike, the Indian Cent seems to have quite a bit of wear for just a 2 year difference when the supposed 1909 overstrike would have occurred. That does not seem right to me; again makes me think of our Chinese friends. Perhaps they should have used a less circulated Indian Cent for the original coin?----- kj0
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The "odd" strengths and weaknesses of the overlapping bits will come into play I suppose.
Eric0 -
Tincup... it is not my coin...do not know the weight....both the IH and the Lincoln of 1909 were 3.11 grams. Cheers, RickO0
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I agree with 19Lyds.
The host coin appears to be the 1909 Lincoln cent. It appears to have been XF grade.
The reason I think this is because the details on GOD and by the wreath you see the Lincoln cent design flattened by the Indian cent strike. I made it a bit easier to tell this by aligning the images to the Lincoln cent.
The Indian Cent strike appears to be only Good or VG grade. It was likely a homemade die transferred from a 1907 Indian cent in that grade. The edge was likely bulged out by the process so it was filed down to be more square.
Any other thoughts would be welcome.Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:0 -
"here" implies "where". I'd like to know "when", since here is now.
In other words; two coins from different years are melded into one. What happened ?
In China they say: Sum yuan Tao Wing
Here we say : "someone toying".
In reality, it's all Greek to me, or just plain old PMD0 -
I maintain the weakness on the IHC is from flattening of the false die and if you notice the higest detail is the IH on the lowest points of the LHC die. I could be wrong but looks like the IHC is the base coin.0
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“Impossible mint error” is a phrase used by mint error dealers and collectors to describe a mint error that defies logic and boggles the mind as to its method of manufacture, whether it was assisted or not and how it could have credibly occurred during the normal production of coinage.0
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<< <i> I could be wrong but looks like the IHC is the base coin >>
I agree. The denticles of the IHC are spread out to the very edge of the coin and are partially flattened by the false Lincoln die strike. I couldn't imagine that this would happen if the Lincoln were the host coin.0 -
Spark eroded 1907 dies over a genuine 1909 host coin.0
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At this point, I would have to give the edge to Rick Snow's reconstruction of events. Notice that the lines of the wheat ear are flattened in between the oak leaves of the Indian cent reverse. I don't see how this could have occurred if the Lincoln cent strike came last.Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.0
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The feathers behind Lincoln's back and head are flattened,
as is the wreath just to the left of the right Wheat ear.
The host coin was a genuine 1907 Indian Head Cent.
I believe the coin was altered via these steps:
False dies were made by squeezing a 1909 Lincoln cent in a vice, between to pieces of copper or other metal of similar hardness.
The 1907 Indian Head Cent was then squeezed in a vice between the false dies.
Because the die metal was relatively soft, it would have been good for just the one impression,
and the false dies would have warped to conform somewhat to the contours of the Indian Cent.
This is why all the Lincoln cent design elements appear to be in low relief.
Note how the lower bust of Lincoln is in low relief.
If it had been 1907 Indian Cent dies impressed over a 1909 Lincoln Cent,
"D STATES" would be bold and "UNITE" would be weaker.
Overall, the coin appears to be somewhat warped.
This is as expected when deformed between two soft dies.
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<< <i>False dies were made by squeezing a 1909 Lincoln cent in a vice, between to pieces of copper or other metal of similar hardness. >>
Would dies created this way also be considered coin transfer dies?0 -
<< <i>The feathers behind Lincoln's back and head are flattened,
as is the wreath just to the left of the right Wheat ear.
The host coin was a genuine 1907 Indian Head Cent.
I believe the coin was altered via these steps:
False dies were made by squeezing a 1909 Lincoln cent in a vice, between to pieces of copper or other metal of similar hardness.
The 1907 Indian Head Cent was then squeezed in a vice between the false dies.
Because the die metal was relatively soft, it would have been good for just the one impression,
and the false dies would have warped to conform somewhat to the contours of the Indian Cent.
This is why all the Lincoln cent design elements appear to be in low relief.
Note how the lower bust of Lincoln is in low relief.
If it had been 1907 Indian Cent dies impressed over a 1909 Lincoln Cent,
"D STATES" would be bold and "UNITE" would be weaker.
Overall, the coin appears to be somewhat warped.
This is as expected when deformed between two soft dies. >>
What he said.Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.0 -
<< The feathers behind Lincoln's back and head are flattened,
as is the wreath just to the left of the right Wheat ear.
The host coin was a genuine 1907 Indian Head Cent.
I believe the coin was altered via these steps:
False dies were made by squeezing a 1909 Lincoln cent in a vice, between to pieces of copper or other metal of similar hardness.
The 1907 Indian Head Cent was then squeezed in a vice between the false dies.
Because the die metal was relatively soft, it would have been good for just the one impression,
and the false dies would have warped to conform somewhat to the contours of the Indian Cent.
This is why all the Lincoln cent design elements appear to be in low relief.
Note how the lower bust of Lincoln is in low relief.
If it had been 1907 Indian Cent dies impressed over a 1909 Lincoln Cent,
"D STATES" would be bold and "UNITE" would be weaker.
Overall, the coin appears to be somewhat warped.
This is as expected when deformed between two soft dies. >>
If this is the case (the above scenario) why is there some wheat showing in very protected areas? Why are some of the Lincoln design elements (the ones I mentioned in my earlier post) of varying strength?
Eric0 -
<< <i>
If this is the case (the above scenario) why is there some wheat showing in very protected areas? Why are some of the Lincoln design elements (the ones I mentioned in my earlier post) of varying strength?
Eric >>
Look at the fifth of the original pictures, where the wheat lines cross the ribbon ends. When the genuine 1909 cent was pressed into the soft metal used to make the false dies, the depressed lines in the genuine wheat ears left raised lines on the false reverse die.
When the false reverse die was pressed against the genuine 1907 cent, the false die with the raised lines on it distorted down into the valley between the two ribbon ends. Notice how the wheat ear lines only appear near the center of the valley, where the opening was wide enough for the false die metal to distort down into the valley. There was not enough pressure to distort the false die metal completely into the valley.
Had the 1909 cent been the original strike, those lines would run completely across the valley.
TDProfessional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.0 -
Fake 1909 Lincoln stamped onto a 1907 Indian.
The host coin will have some full features and some squished features. The secondary impression will have some full features and some weakly struck features. The headdress feathers are squished. The Lincoln reverse lettering and wheat lines that are in the field (farthest from the die when overstruck) are weak.John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution0 -
<< <i>
<< <i>
If this is the case (the above scenario) why is there some wheat showing in very protected areas? Why are some of the Lincoln design elements (the ones I mentioned in my earlier post) of varying strength?
Eric >>
Look at the fifth of the original pictures, where the wheat lines cross the ribbon ends. When the genuine 1909 cent was pressed into the soft metal used to make the false dies, the depressed lines in the genuine wheat ears left raised lines on the false reverse die.
When the false reverse die was pressed against the genuine 1907 cent, the false die with the raised lines on it distorted down into the valley between the two ribbon ends. Notice how the wheat ear lines only appear near the center of the valley, where the opening was wide enough for the false die metal to distort down into the valley. There was not enough pressure to distort the false die metal completely into the valley.
Had the 1909 cent been the original strike, those lines would run completely across the valley.
TD >>
Thank makes cents
Thanks,
Eric0 -
On an overstrike, the impression of the final strike is the least deformed. Earlier impressions will get obliterated in certain places, usually the field areas of the die of the final strike.
The Indian strike is not deformed or obliterated anywhere. The Lincoln strike is obliterated in the LI of LIBERTY, IN GOD WE TRUST, and Lincoln's shoulder.
The die used to make the Indian strike was made from only a Good or VG condition coin. so any lack of detail there is from lack of detail on the die.Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:0
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