What happened here? (real VG 1907 Indian struck by a fake 1909 Lincoln die)
EagleEye
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Here is a strange coin. Please post your thoughts. So as not to sway anyone to think one thing or another, I will post my opinion tomorrow.
Here is the obverse:
The reverse:
This is the edge:
Close up of the ONE CENT:
Close up of the wreath:
Close up of GOD:
Here is the obverse:
The reverse:
This is the edge:
Close up of the ONE CENT:
Close up of the wreath:
Close up of GOD:
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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Comments
PS- Awesome coin.
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
A time traveling coin?
<< <i>It almost looks like the 1907 Indian was struck over the 1909 Lincoln.
A time traveling coin?
+1. It definitely looks like the IHC was struck over the Lincoln. Are the Chinese trying to muscle into the errors market now too?
My first thought was the night shift was fooling around . . .
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
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Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>Counterfeit 1909 s VDB over a real 1907 IHC as a test strike? >>
I'm thinking the exact opposite. Counterfeit 1907 over a 1909.
Not enough device flattening for an authentic strike IOM.
The name is LEE!
If you examine more recent cents struck over struck dimes, much more of the 2nd strike shows than the 1st strike.
Just my opinion.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
--------T O M---------
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<< <i>Skilled Photoshop lesson?
Beat me to it
Steve
Nobody has mentioned Rick's helpful picture of the edge, which shows horizontal striations. Real coins struck in collars don't have horizontal striations on the edge, so something is wrong. I can't tell from the pics if the horizontal striations are related to the wacky obverse/reverse issues or they're just a red herring. Considering that Rick provided the picture in the first place, I have a feeling they must be related... Maybe someone ground it down to the correct diameter after the second strike caused it to stretch a bit?
It made the diameter slightly bigger since there's no collar and then they filed the rim/edge to get the diameter back to normal which is why the lines on the rim go in the wrong direction.
<< <i>The Lincoln design elements would be reversed and incused if it was a vise job. >>
I agree with this, both designs are raised not incused. Still don't have a clue though.
<< <i>To me, way too much shows of the Indian cent's design, and too little shows of the Lincoln cent's design, for this to be genuine.
If you examine more recent cents struck over struck dimes, much more of the 2nd strike shows than the 1st strike.
Just my opinion. >>
Exactly what I thought. But it is still cool even if it is fake
A soft die is what you get if you take 2 pieces of soft metal and squeeze a coin in between them.
They made the soft die from the Lincoln then put the IHC in it and squeezed.
It increased the diameter because there's no collar so they filed it down to size and it made the lines on the rim going in the wrong direction from what would normally be on a punched planchet.
<< <i>
<< <i>To me, way too much shows of the Indian cent's design, and too little shows of the Lincoln cent's design, for this to be genuine.
If you examine more recent cents struck over struck dimes, much more of the 2nd strike shows than the 1st strike.
Just my opinion. >>
Exactly what I thought. >>
Obviously, great minds think alike.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>The reason the Lincoln image is not incuse is because it was squeezed with a soft die made from a 1909 Lincoln not the Lincoln itself.
A soft die is what you get if you take 2 pieces of soft metal and squeeze a coin in between them.
They made the soft die from the Lincoln then put the IHC in it and squeezed.
It increased the diameter because there's no collar so they filed it down to size and it made the lines on the rim going in the wrong direction from what would normally be on a punched planchet. >>
OK, I can grasp the concept. What type of metal would you use in this instance? The Lincoln mottos and lettering are spot on for a correct Lincoln. Don't see any signs of counterfeit, so your explanation would support
that.
that. >>
Not sure the metal they use but something softer and easier to work with than than a coin die. It won't last long because it's soft but enough to put an image on one other coin.
Maybe they heat up to soften the metal while making the die and or soften the host coin they use it on.
Eric
<< <i>A genuine 1907 Indian Head Cent, with a home vice "squeeze" job. >>
Unless the home vice guy had a Lincoln die, this isn't correct.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>False die overstrike. >>
Correct. And in three words or less.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
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"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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But the rim... the horizontal striations just aren't right. Not for a struck coin. Certainly appears to have been 'size adjusted' by grinding, etc. One of the closeup photos also show the striations overlapping onto the face side of the rim.
If the size of the coin had to be adjusted by grinding some of the rim, perhaps that should show in the weight of the coin. Ricko, what is the weight of the coin?
Certainly I would still continue to have the coin checked out, but at this point I would say our friends the Chinese have provided us with another challenge.
Eric
The host coin appears to be the 1909 Lincoln cent. It appears to have been XF grade.
The reason I think this is because the details on GOD and by the wreath you see the Lincoln cent design flattened by the Indian cent strike. I made it a bit easier to tell this by aligning the images to the Lincoln cent.
The Indian Cent strike appears to be only Good or VG grade. It was likely a homemade die transferred from a 1907 Indian cent in that grade. The edge was likely bulged out by the process so it was filed down to be more square.
Any other thoughts would be welcome.
In other words; two coins from different years are melded into one. What happened ?
In China they say: Sum yuan Tao Wing
Here we say : "someone toying".
In reality, it's all Greek to me, or just plain old PMD
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"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i> I could be wrong but looks like the IHC is the base coin >>
I agree. The denticles of the IHC are spread out to the very edge of the coin and are partially flattened by the false Lincoln die strike. I couldn't imagine that this would happen if the Lincoln were the host coin.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
as is the wreath just to the left of the right Wheat ear.
The host coin was a genuine 1907 Indian Head Cent.
I believe the coin was altered via these steps:
False dies were made by squeezing a 1909 Lincoln cent in a vice, between to pieces of copper or other metal of similar hardness.
The 1907 Indian Head Cent was then squeezed in a vice between the false dies.
Because the die metal was relatively soft, it would have been good for just the one impression,
and the false dies would have warped to conform somewhat to the contours of the Indian Cent.
This is why all the Lincoln cent design elements appear to be in low relief.
Note how the lower bust of Lincoln is in low relief.
If it had been 1907 Indian Cent dies impressed over a 1909 Lincoln Cent,
"D STATES" would be bold and "UNITE" would be weaker.
Overall, the coin appears to be somewhat warped.
This is as expected when deformed between two soft dies.
<< <i>False dies were made by squeezing a 1909 Lincoln cent in a vice, between to pieces of copper or other metal of similar hardness. >>
Would dies created this way also be considered coin transfer dies?
<< <i>The feathers behind Lincoln's back and head are flattened,
as is the wreath just to the left of the right Wheat ear.
The host coin was a genuine 1907 Indian Head Cent.
I believe the coin was altered via these steps:
False dies were made by squeezing a 1909 Lincoln cent in a vice, between to pieces of copper or other metal of similar hardness.
The 1907 Indian Head Cent was then squeezed in a vice between the false dies.
Because the die metal was relatively soft, it would have been good for just the one impression,
and the false dies would have warped to conform somewhat to the contours of the Indian Cent.
This is why all the Lincoln cent design elements appear to be in low relief.
Note how the lower bust of Lincoln is in low relief.
If it had been 1907 Indian Cent dies impressed over a 1909 Lincoln Cent,
"D STATES" would be bold and "UNITE" would be weaker.
Overall, the coin appears to be somewhat warped.
This is as expected when deformed between two soft dies. >>
What he said.
as is the wreath just to the left of the right Wheat ear.
The host coin was a genuine 1907 Indian Head Cent.
I believe the coin was altered via these steps:
False dies were made by squeezing a 1909 Lincoln cent in a vice, between to pieces of copper or other metal of similar hardness.
The 1907 Indian Head Cent was then squeezed in a vice between the false dies.
Because the die metal was relatively soft, it would have been good for just the one impression,
and the false dies would have warped to conform somewhat to the contours of the Indian Cent.
This is why all the Lincoln cent design elements appear to be in low relief.
Note how the lower bust of Lincoln is in low relief.
If it had been 1907 Indian Cent dies impressed over a 1909 Lincoln Cent,
"D STATES" would be bold and "UNITE" would be weaker.
Overall, the coin appears to be somewhat warped.
This is as expected when deformed between two soft dies. >>
If this is the case (the above scenario) why is there some wheat showing in very protected areas? Why are some of the Lincoln design elements (the ones I mentioned in my earlier post) of varying strength?
Eric
<< <i>
If this is the case (the above scenario) why is there some wheat showing in very protected areas? Why are some of the Lincoln design elements (the ones I mentioned in my earlier post) of varying strength?
Eric >>
Look at the fifth of the original pictures, where the wheat lines cross the ribbon ends. When the genuine 1909 cent was pressed into the soft metal used to make the false dies, the depressed lines in the genuine wheat ears left raised lines on the false reverse die.
When the false reverse die was pressed against the genuine 1907 cent, the false die with the raised lines on it distorted down into the valley between the two ribbon ends. Notice how the wheat ear lines only appear near the center of the valley, where the opening was wide enough for the false die metal to distort down into the valley. There was not enough pressure to distort the false die metal completely into the valley.
Had the 1909 cent been the original strike, those lines would run completely across the valley.
TD
The host coin will have some full features and some squished features. The secondary impression will have some full features and some weakly struck features. The headdress feathers are squished. The Lincoln reverse lettering and wheat lines that are in the field (farthest from the die when overstruck) are weak.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
If this is the case (the above scenario) why is there some wheat showing in very protected areas? Why are some of the Lincoln design elements (the ones I mentioned in my earlier post) of varying strength?
Eric >>
Look at the fifth of the original pictures, where the wheat lines cross the ribbon ends. When the genuine 1909 cent was pressed into the soft metal used to make the false dies, the depressed lines in the genuine wheat ears left raised lines on the false reverse die.
When the false reverse die was pressed against the genuine 1907 cent, the false die with the raised lines on it distorted down into the valley between the two ribbon ends. Notice how the wheat ear lines only appear near the center of the valley, where the opening was wide enough for the false die metal to distort down into the valley. There was not enough pressure to distort the false die metal completely into the valley.
Had the 1909 cent been the original strike, those lines would run completely across the valley.
TD >>
Thank makes cents
Thanks,
Eric
The Indian strike is not deformed or obliterated anywhere. The Lincoln strike is obliterated in the LI of LIBERTY, IN GOD WE TRUST, and Lincoln's shoulder.
The die used to make the Indian strike was made from only a Good or VG condition coin. so any lack of detail there is from lack of detail on the die.