Advice on a coin robbery, first I had hope, now not so much
fishteeth
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Some of you already know of this story based on some PMs, but time to go public for some advice.
Basic story:
A little over 2 weeks ago a group of landscapers let themselves into my house and grabbed a group of coins. The landscapers were not supposed to be there
and the house was not supposed to be vacant. The landscapers showed up when I was leaving for work to say they needed to water the new grass seed, then my wife had to leave for a pedicure that I had no knowledge of. I had just come back from Central States and had a box of coins that I left out of the safe deposit box because I needed to photo and catalogue them, there were also some pieces from my long term collection that were unfortunately in this box. So as bad luck would have it the one day I leave any unattended coins in the house I get robbed.
I did not notice the robbery right away due to them only taking a percentage of the coins from the stock box, about 1 week later I went to box to finish photos. That is when I noticed coins missing. I soon realized that the only day these coins were out, and the house empty, was when the landscapers showed up unexpectedly. I called the one I had a number for and he quickly turned on the others. At this point the police were contacted, statements taken and the location of where the coins were sold to given.
A few days later the cops got around to going to One of these stores. The store had video of the group, a scan with IDs and scans of some of the better coins. Case Closed I thought. I will get my coins back, the perps will get arrested and everything will be good.
Not so lucky. The slimy coin dealer (he is well known as a crook around here by collectors) informed the police officer that the coins were already sold. The cops then informed me that the only way to get anything was in the form of restitution from the crooks. I DON'T WANT THE MONEY, I WANT THE COINS, and besides these guys have no money to give me. Cop basically said I was probably going to be out of luck.
Now total value taken was only 5-6,000 dollars and many of the coins have more sentimental than numerical value. The coins taken varied from a group of 1806 half dollars in VF+ condition, a group of 1834 dimes by variety and some Die states, A number of various seated half dime/dimes/quarters that I had kept due to interesting die cracks etc, a bunch of silver 90%, a very nice AU flying eagle and a number of other 10-50 dollar coins, many of which had sentimental meaning to me.
So my question is: do the dealers who bought and then "Sold" the coins have any liability here. I was told that they probably still have the coins but if they give them to me they will be out the money that they paid for them. What else can I do. The cops have not even arrested these guys and they know where they are and have confessions and all the evidence they could ever want.
On a funny side note try explaining what a Die Cud is to a cop in small town Wisconsin. Also, luckily they didn't touch even one of the group of early coppers which included some really nice colonials.
Basic story:
A little over 2 weeks ago a group of landscapers let themselves into my house and grabbed a group of coins. The landscapers were not supposed to be there
and the house was not supposed to be vacant. The landscapers showed up when I was leaving for work to say they needed to water the new grass seed, then my wife had to leave for a pedicure that I had no knowledge of. I had just come back from Central States and had a box of coins that I left out of the safe deposit box because I needed to photo and catalogue them, there were also some pieces from my long term collection that were unfortunately in this box. So as bad luck would have it the one day I leave any unattended coins in the house I get robbed.
I did not notice the robbery right away due to them only taking a percentage of the coins from the stock box, about 1 week later I went to box to finish photos. That is when I noticed coins missing. I soon realized that the only day these coins were out, and the house empty, was when the landscapers showed up unexpectedly. I called the one I had a number for and he quickly turned on the others. At this point the police were contacted, statements taken and the location of where the coins were sold to given.
A few days later the cops got around to going to One of these stores. The store had video of the group, a scan with IDs and scans of some of the better coins. Case Closed I thought. I will get my coins back, the perps will get arrested and everything will be good.
Not so lucky. The slimy coin dealer (he is well known as a crook around here by collectors) informed the police officer that the coins were already sold. The cops then informed me that the only way to get anything was in the form of restitution from the crooks. I DON'T WANT THE MONEY, I WANT THE COINS, and besides these guys have no money to give me. Cop basically said I was probably going to be out of luck.
Now total value taken was only 5-6,000 dollars and many of the coins have more sentimental than numerical value. The coins taken varied from a group of 1806 half dollars in VF+ condition, a group of 1834 dimes by variety and some Die states, A number of various seated half dime/dimes/quarters that I had kept due to interesting die cracks etc, a bunch of silver 90%, a very nice AU flying eagle and a number of other 10-50 dollar coins, many of which had sentimental meaning to me.
So my question is: do the dealers who bought and then "Sold" the coins have any liability here. I was told that they probably still have the coins but if they give them to me they will be out the money that they paid for them. What else can I do. The cops have not even arrested these guys and they know where they are and have confessions and all the evidence they could ever want.
On a funny side note try explaining what a Die Cud is to a cop in small town Wisconsin. Also, luckily they didn't touch even one of the group of early coppers which included some really nice colonials.
0
Comments
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All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
I do know that you were burglarized not robbed.
Best of luck and I'm very glad it was not a robbery.
bob
Anyone in possession of said property, whether they know it was stolen or not, is still in possession of stolen property and would have to relinquish it if it can be proven as such.
So Sorry to hear Chris....
<< <i>As I understand it, stolen property is still the property of the owner from whom it was stolen.
Anyone in possession of said property, whether they know it was stolen or not, is still in possession of stolen property and would have to relinquish it if it can be proven as such. >>
This. And if the dealer knew it was stolen property and acted as a fence, that is additional legal liability for him. If you can prove the dealer still has the coins, you just might get them back. If the idea of some landscapers bringing in scarce early 19th century coins into his shop doesn't raise any suspicions re ownership, this guy is really a pendejo.
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You may also want to contact a good, no wait, the best lawyer in town and peruse not only a criminal case but also a civil case.
I hope you get your coins back, good luck.
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IF the dealer admitted to police that these coins were already sold by him, what's not so lucky about pressuring him with prosecution as an accessory to selling stolen property? At the very least, the dealer should be able to show a record of sale to the buyers of the stolen property. You could also make life very difficult for the landscaper. Craigslist is a great place to expose criminals.
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The police did say they were going to call this a robbery
I would document the details and see if you could get a case filed against the dealer by the police or take the slimeball to small claims court.
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And how did they get into the house??
If you have cert numbers of the coins, I would contact dealers who set up at a local show and inform them of the theft. Also scan ebay for the coins, which may be more difficult if they are cracked out.
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Good luck.
And if he tells you he sold the coins for pennies on the dollar, I would think you could get the police back on the case, because it would prove that the dealer is crooked.
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Sorry for your loss. You're in a tough situation.
The theft should definitely be reported to the Numismatic Crime Information Center, with a list and photos (if available).
Get a lawyer, preferably one who is well-connected with the rest of the legal system in your community. It's amazing what starts moving around when a laywer starts applying a little pressure. It's a darn shame this is the only way to get things done sometimes. Contact the press. Move quickly. I'd move any way I could to pressure the dealer to produce receipts of the coins he "sold". Your landscapers will get some fines or jail time for their part. Maybe you can get them to produce some evidence against the guy they fenced the stuff to. There are lots of good options but most of them go through an attorney.
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<< <i>seems to me that you would have to be able to prove a specific coin was stolen from you. Since many coins were struck you will need to be able to prove that the one in question is the one stolen from you. Without detailed photos or slabbed cert numbers you don't have much chance. Even if the dealer has one of your coins how do you prove it was one of yours? >>
Even with photos of slabbed coins, all the crooks have to do is break them out of the slabs.. The dealer should be in a lot of trouble and be arrested for trafficking stolen goods. The cops are wrong in saying that there is nothing they can do--they probably just don't want to become involved. The dealer knows who he sold them to-he has to get them back or face the penalty. Detailed purchasing records are required in some areas. Where I live a dealer is supposed to hold all purchases for a period of time before he can sell them. (3-days i believe or it may be be 7 days).
Find out who he sold them to and ask the cops to demand they return them immediately--If he claims that it is confidential information-it is time to go after him legally.
<< <i>Ouch!
Get a lawyer, preferably one who is well-connected with the rest of the legal system in your community. It's amazing what starts moving around when a laywer starts applying a little pressure. It's a darn shame this is the only way to get things done sometimes. Contact the press. Move quickly. I'd move any way I could to pressure the dealer to produce receipts of the coins he "sold". Your landscapers will get some fines or jail time for their part. Maybe you can get them to produce some evidence against the guy they fenced the stuff to. There are lots of good options but most of them go through an attorney. >>
Sounds like proving the value of the coins could be a problem and it would not take long for legal costs to exceed the stated value.
P.S. Get a Pit Bull dog and leave it outside all the time except when your house is empty, it will protect your house like you wouldn't believe when your gone.
Erik
At this point I would recommend contacting an attorney and making defendents of the coin dealer and the landscrapers to maximise your restitution. Unfortunately you will likely not see your coins again, but could put the squeeze on the slimy dealer.
<< <i>And if he tells you he sold the coins for pennies on the dollar, I would think you could get the police back on the case, because it would prove that the dealer is crooked. >>
Ha HA!
Not to stereotype, but, if it was illegal for a dealer to pay pennies/dollars, there would be as many coin dealers in jail as there are drug offenders!
(of course I realize there are many honest dealers as well, but just sayin')
I would try to make the PD and the state's attorney my best friend. They can do a lot of digging a lot easier than you can if they want to. In the criminal process you should have restitution ordered in your favor.
If the dealer still has any in his possession, by law, he has to forgo the coins and give them up to the police. (yes he is out the $ he paid), The only problem at this point now is if the coins were not id' at the time the intial police went into the shop, all he has to say is he did not buy the other coins or saw them. Now, if slimy which you say he is, he can also dispose of the others with out anybody knowing, at other locations out and away from this area. Unless one specifically turned up at another location and traced back, it would be hard recourse to get em back or prosecute the store owner who then knowingly took in and sold stolen coins.
He should have a record of the purchase, but depending on how detailed the buying receipt is, it may not have enough info to determine what and how may coins were purchased. This leaves the slimy dealer an exit to say that other coins he had not seen or know's any thing about. (Even an honest dealer would not have time to record each and every item purchased in a buy, althought they should be familiar with the group as a whole)
also, due to most local laws there is some kind of receipt in the purchasing of coins from people selling, but not so much on the buying side. All he would have to do is say some were sold to customers who came in , but has no idea who they were.
its unfortunate, but crooks now how to work the system too their advantage.
<< <i>If you get a lawyer, they will bleed you out of money that could help you either replenish your coins via reward or begin purchasing replacements. No offense to lawyers, but that's just the nature of their business. Call the police department twice per day and let them want to solve your case just to get you out of their hair. Contact the BBB and report the landscapers, ask your local hardware and lanscape stores to post a flyer identifying the group as crooks and thieves. . .
Erik >>
I completely disagree with this post. I am involved in the system and this is a sure fire way to make sure you get the worst results. In this scenario the police will prefer the criminals to the victim, and that ain't good. The only possible result of posting such a flyer is to get sued yourself.
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<< <i>You might want to find a good lawyer wh ocan research applicable law and tell you if you have the right to sue the slimy coin dealer for the value of the stolen coins. There is general legal principles that support he conclusion that title to stolen property remains with the owner from whom the property was stolen; and the each person in the chain of custody of th estolen property has direct liability to the victimized owner for the value of the stolen property. The slimy coin dealer may protest that he does not have the coins and that you should sue the thieves. My response would be that after slimy coin dealer either gets the coins back from whoever he sold them to and returns them to you, he should refund the money he was paid by the person he sold the coins to and then he should seek reimbursement of the money he paid the thieves for the coins. If the law in your state supports this, then you can bring a legally valid lawsuit against the dealer and the thieves and whoever the dealer sold the coins to. Maybe such a lawsuit will cause someone to return your stolen property.
Good luck. >>
The only thing is that the coins will likely be impounded as evidence until the lawsuit is heard in court. I think if one wanted the coins back the sooner the better, he'd probably have to drop any charges/suits.
perhaps if he receives a subpoena he may find the coins suddenly
<< <i>how about small claims court?
perhaps if he receives a subpoena he may find the coins suddenly >>
<< <i>
<< <i>If you get a lawyer, they will bleed you out of money that could help you either replenish your coins via reward or begin purchasing replacements. No offense to lawyers, but that's just the nature of their business. Call the police department twice per day and let them want to solve your case just to get you out of their hair. Contact the BBB and report the landscapers, ask your local hardware and lanscape stores to post a flyer identifying the group as crooks and thieves. . .
Erik >>
I completely disagree with this post. I am involved in the system and this is a sure fire way to make sure you get the worst results. In this scenario the police will prefer the criminals to the victim, and that ain't good. The only possible result of posting such a flyer is to get sued yourself. >>
...if your involved in a system where police prefere criminals to victims...then your system sucks and I completely disagree with your system. Maybe your right about the flyer though.
Erik
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<< <i>Sounds like the police department in your town is being lax. Contact your district attorney's office and share all the documentation you have. Letting the dealer off like that is just plain a breach of duty. >>
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My stomach churned a bit in sympathy for you. Ugh.
What kind of security breach allowed the landscapers to enter your home or was this a break in? Were the coins visible in the home that the landscapers could see them through the window, etc? Did the landscapers know you do coins? I wonder what motivated these people to violate your home assuming they were a reputable business.
Could these coins have been in a home safe considering their big ticket nature? I can understand having coins to photo, research. I have been guilty of the same thing, leaving coins out on desk while going out to dinner, etc. I guess we just never know when it could happen and I certainly have been careless about leaving coins and currency laying around.
Thanks for sharing, I will try to tighten up my own security.
<< <i>It could be any unscrupulous person who gains access to your living quarters. Landscapers are basically just laborers, good honest work, generally wages are not that good unless you get a real project on the property. I have worked with all types of laborers over the years from the honest hard working types to the cursing, addicted untrustworthy types. I look forward to updates on how this problem turns out. >>
I don't think whether one curses or not is a good measure of trusworthiness. I had a polite hard working guy install a satellite dish at my house and I believe he managed to lighten me of some gold coins from my bedroom a few years ago. He did not curse one time. I had the same problem with bad timing on the exposure window. Lesson learned I hope.
You purchased coins and you own them and they were taken without permisson. (stolen)
Those who took the coins sold them to a dealer who paid for them. He got the proper ID and turned that information over to the police.
Now the hard point ...
Do you want the dealer to hand over the coins that He owns for FREE.???
That is like trying to steal them back.
You should have done this offer to pay what he paid for the coins and turn it in to you insurance company.
<< <i>Let me get this right
You purchased coins and you own them and they were taken without permisson. (stolen)
Those who took the coins sold them to a dealer who paid for them. He got the proper ID and turned that information over to the police.
Now the hard point ...
Do you want the dealer to hand over the coins that He owns for FREE.???
That is like trying to steal them back.
You should have done this offer to pay what he paid for the coins and turn it in to you insurance company. >>
Really now? If the authorities had a search warrant and seized them, they wouldn't give him a damn dime. Anyone who buys merchandise that has a high probability of being improperly owned/stolen deserves to lose his ass. Then again, perhaps I underestimated just how many landscape laborers collect early dimes and half dollars.
What has happened to our values??????
One is not guilty until proven in a court of law..
Do you prejudge everyone...
If one is a different color are they less than you!
You sir are all wrong by judging other.
Ever hear "don't judge a book by its cover"
I can mail out a package faster than one can get a court order and I don't have to report raw coins.
And yes I know a landscaper that collect better coins. He works hard for his money and enjoys his collection of better date gold coins.
<< <i>Really
What has happened to our values??????
One is not guilty until proven in a court of law..
Do you prejudge everyone...
If one is a different color are they less than you!
You sir are all wrong by judging other.
Ever hear "don't judge a book by its cover"
I can mail out a package faster than one can get a court order and I don't have to report raw coins.
And yes I know a landscaper that collect better coins. He works hard for his money and enjoys his collection of better date gold coins. >>
His coins were missing. There was video evidence of the same group of people who were at his residence also visiting a coin shop and selling coins. Sounds like more than coincidence to me. I bet what really happened is that those coins walked off of their own free will and just happened to run into those landscape helpers.