If it was a US GI that was responsible for assembling and then hiding the stash of gold coins, I wonder if he was a member of the unit that starred in the movie "Kelly's Heros"?
I expect that this story will have "legs" for many months/years to come and that claimants to the gold coins may include some or all of the following:
1. the current owner of the property on which building containing the coins were located;
2. the workmen who were on the crew that found the coins;
3. the company that the work crew was employed by;
4. the heirs of the person(s) who assembled and hid the coins (unless the person(s) was/were a thief);
5. the heirs of any person(s) who owned the coins and had them stolen from him or her;
6. possibly insurance companies that paid insurance claims covering the loss of the coins [via subrogation rights];
7. possibly local government(s) [city, county] in France where the coins were found;
8. possibly France itself;
9. possibly the European Union;
10. possibly Uncle Sam [if 1933 double eagles are in the group of coins (though the report is that the coins date from 1851 through 1928)]; and
11. any person who takes an "assignment of rights" to the coin from any of the persons/companies identified in 1.6. above.
Should be a treat to follow this story as it unfolds. I wonder what the rules are in France regarding finds like this. We have had some similar finds in the British Isles and reports on how these matters are handled there. I assume that there is some difference in the way things are handled in France as opposed to in Britain.
<<O.K., I didn't want to go OT replying to some early posts but RichR's comment prompts me to say that it is (his post) the exact story line of the documentary movie "Blood From a Stone", one of the most moving, powerful documentaries I've ever seen. >>
Truth be told, I was thinking about Clint Eastwood (and Don Rickles and Carol O'Connor and the Captain from the Love Boat actor) in Kelly's Heroes...
But yes, I'll falsely also claim that I actually had an excellent, but not widely known powerful documentary in mind!
The Founding Fathers would cry if they could see what has become of our legal system. Toddlers are taught to say "Call 1-800 Amber Lamps" before "mommy" and "daddy" too often.
I just hope that 80% of the liquidated value of this haul doesn't end up in the lawyers bank account. But it probably will.
I was thinking the same things about the 33's like fishcooker. If a bunch did show up in a hoard like this what would it do the present court case in the USA?
Newly discovered treasure of gold coins from a prominent French champagnery to highlight June auction at Bonhams
Los Angeles - Bonhams is pleased to announce to sale of The Champagne Lanson Bonnet Vineyard Collection of $20 Gold Coins during its June 2013 auction of Rare Coins and Medals in Los Angeles. The well publicized discovery occurred in France last February by chance when, according to the vineyard, several of the coins rained down on a worker remodeling a former grape-drying facility.
The Collection features 497 gold US coins minted between 1851 and 1928 with an approximate appraise of $1 million. The coins have been untouched for nearly a century and range in condition from Very Fine to Choice Mint State. It is unknown how the coins found their way to the attic in the eastern village of Les Riceys, France, but the building was owned by a wine producer who traded with the US and England in the 1930s.
Paul Song, Director of the Rare Coins and Banknotes Department at Bonhams, said of the auction, "Bonhams is extremely pleased to be working with The Lanson-BCC Group on this auction. With many coin collections typically found in bank vaults, we are excited to bring this new, uniquely discovered treasure to auction. Our Bonhams Paris Office was instrumental in working closely with the consignor, Lanson-BCC Group, parent company to Alexandre Bonnet Champagne among others, to ensure that the Collection will be presented and sold at auction in the US as a newly discovered treasure.
As well, we are delighted that the auction of the coins will not only promote the name of the Lanson Group Champagne brands in the US but that half of the proceeds from the auction will go to the individual who discovered the coins in the house. The vineyard has described him as a modest employee of the Lanson firm, who brought the Collection to the attention of the company not knowing that he would be entitled to half of the proceeds under French law. According to the vineyard, this anonymous individual will now be able to buy or build a house for his family with the auction proceeds."
Previews of The Champagne Lanson Bonnet Vineyard Collection will begin approximately one year from their initial discovery with an unveiling scheduled for January 29 at the Style et Elegance au Grand Palais hosted by Bonhams each year in Paris. Additional locations on the spring 2013 highlight tour include Bonahms offices in New York, San Francisco and Los Angeles.
A horde of 497 gold coins goes on view briefly next week in Manhattan, after decades wedged above ceiling joists in France. Last year an unidentified workman renovating a vineyard dorm for grape pickers in Champagne country, east of Paris, found the currency when it tumbled down on him from rough sacks. They are all American $20 coins, in barely used condition, with dates between 1851 and 1928.
Bonhams will auction them as separate lots in June in Los Angeles, and it is now taking them on tour for previews, with a Manhattan stop from April 13 through 15. The lots are expected to bring a total of up to $1 million, and the workman will split the proceeds with the property owners, the Lanson-BCC group....
<< <i>However, in all seriousness, if the former owner of that building was either killed in the war or dragged off to a concentration camp, this story might not actually be over yet (and finder's keepers would likely be largely moot)! >>
This sort of thing happened all too frequently with respect to rare artwork and numbered Swiss bank accounts. An Austrian woman named Maria Altmann spent many years in legal proceedings before finally being awarded expensive family artwork by the courts
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I wonder if they will be slabbed first. Would there be any premium associated with them?
already slabbed--
PCGS Paris Certifies 'Champagne Lanson' U.S. $20 Gold Coins Treasure For Bonhams
- March 14, 2013
(Paris, France) – The Professional Coin Grading Service's European Submission Center in Paris has authenticated and graded nearly 500 U.S. 19th and early 20th century $20 denomination gold coins discovered in a French vineyard and that now will be offered in a public auction by Bonhams on June 3, 2013. Known as the Champagne Lanson Bonnet Vineyard Collection, the coins were examined and certified along with many other coins submitted from around Europe during the recent PCGS Paris Grading Week, March 4 - 8. 2013.
"These are the 497 U.S. Double Eagles that were discovered last year in an attic during remodeling work on what used to be grape-drying facility in Les Riceys, a village in Eastern France. The treasure trove of gold coins were minted between 1851 and 1928, and the majority of the now PCGS-certified coins were graded PCGS MS63 or higher. Three 1924 Double Eagles graded PCGS MS66," said Muriel Eymery, PCGS Vice President of International Business Development.
"Many collectors in Europe are still not aware that certified coins often command a premium above the coin's precious metal value, or that a coin certified for authenticity and grade can command a premium price higher than a similar ungraded coin. We are thrilled that PCGS Paris authentication and grading services can now easily help collectors, their dealers and auction houses reveal the true value and rarity of their coins. We hope the success of the Champagne Lanson coins raises awareness of PCGS certification services and the benefits of having coins certified."
It's interesting to compare the dates of the coins with Prohibition, which ended in 1933. The dates on the coins seem to go until 1928. So, there is a theory that a wine producer sold alcohol to American crooks during Prohibition, and was paid in US gold coins. It doesn't make any sense that the wine producer would keep the coins in an attic, which would only contain U.S. gold, however. After all, if he was hiding gold in the attic, there should have been coins from other countries in the horde. Why are there only American coins in the attic, and why weren't there any other items present (like gold bars)?
Could these gold coins be related to "Nazi gold" which has been the subject of much conspiracy speculation? The Nazis looted the gold of their victims and kept it organized in central depositories. In 1945, as they were losing, some of the Nazi gold might have been moved to Swiss banks. Is it possible that these coins are a bit of the Nazi gold which has been recently removed from a Swiss bank and conveniently "found" in the attic as a way to monetize a large number of rare coins?
<< <i>I think there are three more in the attic that they missed. >>
There were probably three workers on site when the hoard of 500 coins was found. At least that's what I thought at first. Each person slipped one in their pocket figuring there were so many no one would notice... that is until the count came in.
Or it could have been the original owner that needed some brew and pulled a 20 out of the stash a few weekends in a row
<< I think there are three more in the attic that they missed. >>
You are making an observation about the quantity of coins: 497 gold coins were found.
Here is an interesting calculation. A double eagle contains 0.9675 troy ounces of gold. When you do the calculation and convert to kilograms, then 497 double eagles is almost exactly 15 kilograms of gold. So, if there were some economic reason to have exactly 15 kg of gold, then 497 is exactly the correct number of coins that would be needed.
<< <i>It's interesting to compare the dates of the coins with Prohibition, which ended in 1933. The dates on the coins seem to go until 1928. So, there is a theory that a wine producer sold alcohol to American crooks during Prohibition, and was paid in US gold coins. It doesn't make any sense that the wine producer would keep the coins in an attic, which would only contain U.S. gold, however. After all, if he was hiding gold in the attic, there should have been coins from other countries in the horde. Why are there only American coins in the attic, and why weren't there any other items present (like gold bars)? >>
Interesting theory. Wonder if John F. Kennedy's father kept records of where he and/or his associates were getting their liquor during the prohibition years? Per the linked article Joseph Kennedy had a fortune in hand (probably including all the the gold double eagles he needed) to ride the next wave after insider trading along with pumping and dumping stocks and then pulling out all his funds from the stock market just before the crash. Maybe some reverse engineering is in order.
<< <i>Any guesses as to how much its going to cost to own one of these beauties? Is it going to be possible to get in for under $2,000 on a common date? >>
Try for the ones that actually fell from the ceiling...they may have a ding or two but the story is more interesting!
I'm also interested in owning one if the prices are reasonable. Any idea if they will be auctioning these individually? They mention "lots" in the one article.
Thank you all for your interesting comments. With the exception of a few "details only" coins, each coin will be offered individually, and is graded by PCGS as "Collection Champagne Lanson" on them, with the grades ranging from VF to MS66. You can refer to this link: Bonhams 1793 to get sale date and information on when the collection will be online, which should be early May 2013. Best regards, Paul Song.
Paul Inho Song Director, Coin and Banknote Auctions Bonhams & Butterfields Auctioneers and Appraisers since 1793 7601 Sunset Boulevard Los Angeles CA 90046 (323) 436 5455 (310) 633 4170 work mobile paul.song@bonhams.com www.bonhams.com/uscoins
<< <i>Thank you all for your interesting comments. With the exception of a few "details only" coins, each coin will be offered individually, and is graded by PCGS as "Collection Champagne Lanson" on them, with the grades ranging from VF to MS66. You can refer to this link: Bonhams 1793 to get sale date and information on when the collection will be online, which should be early May 2013. Best regards, Paul Song. >>
It sounds like this could be related to a WWII issue; perhaps the owner hid the gold and then was killed during the war?? The original article states that the owner traded with the U.S. and Britain in the 1930s, so maybe he owned the building into the early 40s?
Comments
I expect that this story will have "legs" for many months/years to come and that claimants to the gold coins may include some or all of the following:
1. the current owner of the property on which building containing the coins were located;
2. the workmen who were on the crew that found the coins;
3. the company that the work crew was employed by;
4. the heirs of the person(s) who assembled and hid the coins (unless the person(s) was/were a thief);
5. the heirs of any person(s) who owned the coins and had them stolen from him or her;
6. possibly insurance companies that paid insurance claims covering the loss of the coins [via subrogation rights];
7. possibly local government(s) [city, county] in France where the coins were found;
8. possibly France itself;
9. possibly the European Union;
10. possibly Uncle Sam [if 1933 double eagles are in the group of coins (though the report is that the coins date from 1851 through 1928)]; and
11. any person who takes an "assignment of rights" to the coin from any of the persons/companies identified in 1.6. above.
Should be a treat to follow this story as it unfolds. I wonder what the rules are in France regarding finds like this. We have had some similar finds in the British Isles and reports on how these matters are handled there. I assume that there is some difference in the way things are handled in France as opposed to in Britain.
Truth be told, I was thinking about Clint Eastwood (and Don Rickles and Carol O'Connor and the Captain from the Love Boat actor) in Kelly's Heroes...
But yes, I'll falsely also claim that I actually had an excellent, but not widely known powerful documentary in mind!
I wonder what kind of shape they are/were in before they fell out of the celing and then stacked.
Toddlers are taught to say "Call 1-800 Amber Lamps" before "mommy" and "daddy" too often.
I just hope that 80% of the liquidated value of this haul doesn't end up in the lawyers bank account.
But it probably will.
Lafayette Grading Set
Newly discovered treasure of gold coins from a prominent French champagnery to highlight June auction at Bonhams
Los Angeles - Bonhams is pleased to announce to sale of The Champagne Lanson Bonnet Vineyard Collection of $20 Gold Coins during its June 2013 auction of Rare Coins and Medals in Los Angeles. The well publicized discovery occurred in France last February by chance when, according to the vineyard, several of the coins rained down on a worker remodeling a former grape-drying facility.
The Collection features 497 gold US coins minted between 1851 and 1928 with an approximate appraise of $1 million. The coins have been untouched for nearly a century and range in condition from Very Fine to Choice Mint State. It is unknown how the coins found their way to the attic in the eastern village of Les Riceys, France, but the building was owned by a wine producer who traded with the US and England in the 1930s.
Paul Song, Director of the Rare Coins and Banknotes Department at Bonhams, said of the auction, "Bonhams is extremely pleased to be working with The Lanson-BCC Group on this auction. With many coin collections typically found in bank vaults, we are excited to bring this new, uniquely discovered treasure to auction. Our Bonhams Paris Office was instrumental in working closely with the consignor, Lanson-BCC Group, parent company to Alexandre Bonnet Champagne among others, to ensure that the Collection will be presented and sold at auction in the US as a newly discovered treasure.
As well, we are delighted that the auction of the coins will not only promote the name of the Lanson Group Champagne brands in the US but that half of the proceeds from the auction will go to the individual who discovered the coins in the house. The vineyard has described him as a modest employee of the Lanson firm, who brought the Collection to the attention of the company not knowing that he would be entitled to half of the proceeds under French law. According to the vineyard, this anonymous individual will now be able to buy or build a house for his family with the auction proceeds."
Previews of The Champagne Lanson Bonnet Vineyard Collection will begin approximately one year from their initial discovery with an unveiling scheduled for January 29 at the Style et Elegance au Grand Palais hosted by Bonhams each year in Paris.
Additional locations on the spring 2013 highlight tour include Bonahms offices in New York, San Francisco and Los Angeles.
Link
Also covered in today's New York Times...
WORKER’S STUNNING FIND
A horde of 497 gold coins goes on view briefly next week in Manhattan, after decades wedged above ceiling joists in France. Last year an unidentified workman renovating a vineyard dorm for grape pickers in Champagne country, east of Paris, found the currency when it tumbled down on him from rough sacks. They are all American $20 coins, in barely used condition, with dates between 1851 and 1928.
Bonhams will auction them as separate lots in June in Los Angeles, and it is now taking them on tour for previews, with a Manhattan stop from April 13 through 15. The lots are expected to bring a total of up to $1 million, and the workman will split the proceeds with the property owners, the Lanson-BCC group....
NYT
He who knows he has enough is rich.
Would there be any premium associated with them?
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Great! I cannot afford all of these surprisingly-new-to-the-market gold coin hoards.
1851 -1928 only
Whew, looks like my 1850 remains safe from being impacted by the increased supply of Double Liberties that will come to auction in June. lol
The "Rest of the Story" behind my "unique" 1850
<< <i>However, in all seriousness, if the former owner of that building was either killed in the war or dragged off to a concentration camp, this story might not actually be over yet (and finder's keepers would likely be largely moot)! >>
This sort of thing happened all too frequently with respect to rare artwork and numbered Swiss bank accounts. An Austrian woman named Maria Altmann spent many years in legal proceedings before finally being awarded expensive family artwork by the courts
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Would there be any premium associated with them?
already slabbed--
PCGS Paris Certifies 'Champagne Lanson' U.S. $20 Gold Coins Treasure For Bonhams
- March 14, 2013
(Paris, France) – The Professional Coin Grading Service's European Submission Center in Paris has authenticated and graded nearly 500 U.S. 19th and early 20th century $20 denomination gold coins discovered in a French vineyard and that now will be offered in a public auction by Bonhams on June 3, 2013. Known as the Champagne Lanson Bonnet Vineyard Collection, the coins were examined and certified along with many other coins submitted from around Europe during the recent PCGS Paris Grading Week, March 4 - 8. 2013.
"These are the 497 U.S. Double Eagles that were discovered last year in an attic during remodeling work on what used to be grape-drying facility in Les Riceys, a village in Eastern France. The treasure trove of gold coins were minted between 1851 and 1928, and the majority of the now PCGS-certified coins were graded PCGS MS63 or higher. Three 1924 Double Eagles graded PCGS MS66," said Muriel Eymery, PCGS Vice President of International Business Development.
"Many collectors in Europe are still not aware that certified coins often command a premium above the coin's precious metal value, or that a coin certified for authenticity and grade can command a premium price higher than a similar ungraded coin. We are thrilled that PCGS Paris authentication and grading services can now easily help collectors, their dealers and auction houses reveal the true value and rarity of their coins. We hope the success of the Champagne Lanson coins raises awareness of PCGS certification services and the benefits of having coins certified."
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Thanks
Could these gold coins be related to "Nazi gold" which has been the subject of much conspiracy speculation? The Nazis looted the gold of their victims and kept it organized in central depositories. In 1945, as they were losing, some of the Nazi gold might have been moved to Swiss banks. Is it possible that these coins are a bit of the Nazi gold which has been recently removed from a Swiss bank and conveniently "found" in the attic as a way to monetize a large number of rare coins?
<< <i>I think there are three more in the attic that they missed. >>
There were probably three workers on site when the hoard of 500 coins was found. At least that's what I thought at first. Each person slipped one in their pocket figuring there were so many no one would notice... that is until the count came in.
Or it could have been the original owner that needed some brew and pulled a 20 out of the stash a few weekends in a row
You are making an observation about the quantity of coins: 497 gold coins were found.
Here is an interesting calculation. A double eagle contains 0.9675 troy ounces of gold. When you do the calculation and convert to kilograms, then 497 double eagles is almost exactly 15 kilograms of gold. So, if there were some economic reason to have exactly 15 kg of gold, then 497 is exactly the correct number of coins that would be needed.
Has anyone dealt with Bonhams before? specifically live internet bidding on auction day?
<< <i>It's interesting to compare the dates of the coins with Prohibition, which ended in 1933. The dates on the coins seem to go until 1928. So, there is a theory that a wine producer sold alcohol to American crooks during Prohibition, and was paid in US gold coins. It doesn't make any sense that the wine producer would keep the coins in an attic, which would only contain U.S. gold, however. After all, if he was hiding gold in the attic, there should have been coins from other countries in the horde. Why are there only American coins in the attic, and why weren't there any other items present (like gold bars)?
>>
Interesting theory. Wonder if John F. Kennedy's father kept records of where he and/or his associates were getting their liquor during the prohibition years? Per the linked article Joseph Kennedy had a fortune in hand (probably including all the the gold double eagles he needed) to ride the next wave after insider trading along with pumping and dumping stocks and then pulling out all his funds from the stock market just before the crash. Maybe some reverse engineering is in order.
Kennedy's bootlegging
<< <i>Any guesses as to how much its going to cost to own one of these beauties? Is it going to be possible to get in for under $2,000 on a common date? >>
Try for the ones that actually fell from the ceiling...they may have a ding or two but the story is more interesting!
He who knows he has enough is rich.
Every date starting with 1929 is very rare,
Director, Coin and Banknote Auctions
Bonhams & Butterfields Auctioneers and Appraisers since 1793
7601 Sunset Boulevard
Los Angeles CA 90046
(323) 436 5455
(310) 633 4170 work mobile
paul.song@bonhams.com
www.bonhams.com/uscoins
fixed it for you ^
Thanks for sharing.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Thank you all for your interesting comments. With the exception of a few "details only" coins, each coin will be offered individually, and is graded by PCGS as "Collection Champagne Lanson" on them, with the grades ranging from VF to MS66. You can refer to this link: Bonhams 1793 to get sale date and information on when the collection will be online, which should be early May 2013. Best regards, Paul Song. >>
Thanks !
<< <i>Looks like there could be some DOGs in those stacks.
I suggest looking through the full set of coins up online in the link I posted above - there are indeed some nicely crusted pieces
<< <i>I suggest looking through the full set of coins up online in the link I posted above - there are indeed some nicely crusted pieces
Yes there definitely are
<< <i>I wonder if they will be slabbed first.
Would there be any premium associated with them? >>
They will be slabbed with "Ceiling Effect" to explain the dings and scratches they incurred from falling on the floor.
Obscurum per obscurius
Link to June Auction
He who knows he has enough is rich.