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Parking lot deal? Is this ethical?
Dave99B
Posts: 8,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was in a local B&M, killing some time, when a guy walked in and asked the dealer if he was interested in buying three rolls of Unc Franlklin halves. The dealer said 'Sure, lets take a look'. I glanced over as the dealer quickly looked them over, and they looked very nice. Clearly uncirculated halves. All where 1963-P's. This was over 20+ years ago as best as I recall, so keep in mind silver was a lot cheaper.
Anyway, the dealer politely offered $60/roll, which seemed fair at the time. The customer considered it, and then asked 'How about $200 even?'. The dealer said 'Sorry, $180 is my best offer. That's about the best I can do, and still make a profit.' The seller politely passed on the offer, and exited the store.
Ten minutes or so later, I left the store and headed to my vehicle. I noticed the customer sitting in his car several stalls away. Out of the blue, I walked over and said that I'd pay $200 for the halves. Two minutes later the transaction was complete, and I was driving home with the silver.
To this day, though, it just didn't seem right.
Ethical, in your opinion?
Dave
Anyway, the dealer politely offered $60/roll, which seemed fair at the time. The customer considered it, and then asked 'How about $200 even?'. The dealer said 'Sorry, $180 is my best offer. That's about the best I can do, and still make a profit.' The seller politely passed on the offer, and exited the store.
Ten minutes or so later, I left the store and headed to my vehicle. I noticed the customer sitting in his car several stalls away. Out of the blue, I walked over and said that I'd pay $200 for the halves. Two minutes later the transaction was complete, and I was driving home with the silver.
To this day, though, it just didn't seem right.
Ethical, in your opinion?
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
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Hard to see anything unethical about this. You were in the right place at the right time, yes; unethical, I say no. Enjoy the Franklins (time to take them out of the Taco Bell napkin.)
<< <i>Why didn't it seem right to you? >>
Me or Dave?
The B&M dealer pays rent, utilities, salaries, tax, etc. Trolling outside his shop to scoop up deals that fell through does not seem right to me.
Taylor
I am a YN and I do not want anybody to question my IQ Level! I don't know everything and came here to learn!
Even though he clearly passed on the deal, it just seemed odd to transact a deal in his parking lot.
I would say I wasn't 'trolling', though. It was more of a chance encounter once I left the store.
Dave
<< <i>Dealer rejected the offer and the guy left. It's not like you immediately ran after him, nor did you try to make a deal in the coin dealer's shop (where he's paying utilities, etc.). Would it be unethical if you'd bumped into the guy a week later and then did the deal? I don't see any issue here whatsoever. >>
I'm with you. You didn't troll the parking lot. The guy just happened to be outside.
BTW, I'll offer you $220 for them. Now that's a solid 10% return.
For that matter, I am going to park outside Target and sell t-shirts in the parking lot to people leaving the store. Why not? They are done shopping at Target, right?
<< <i>Me or Dave? >>
I meant Dave. Sorry for not being clear.
<< <i>
<< <i>Me or Dave? >>
I meant Dave. Sorry for not being clear. >>
Sorry, I answered anyway.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Me or Dave? >>
I meant Dave. Sorry for not being clear. >>
Sorry, I answered anyway.
That's okay. I thought it was a good answer, even if it's one that might not be well received by many.
Easy way out of this dilemma- ask the dealer if he minds if you make deals outside with people who don't accept his offers.
That being said, I agree with RYK that I wouldn't lose sleep over it...at this point.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Me or Dave? >>
I meant Dave. Sorry for not being clear. >>
Sorry, I answered anyway.
That's okay. I thought it was a good answer, even if it's one that might not be well received by many.
Easy way out of this dilemma- ask the dealer if he minds if you make deals outside with people who don't accept his offers. >>
I'll give you $20 if the dealer says that he does not mind.
<< <i>I'll give you $20 if the dealer says that he does not mind.
I expect I'll be paying for my own lunch tomorrow and the next day and the next and the next, then.
<< <i>If this is cool, I am going to go to the next coin show, camp by Doug Winter's table, and whoever offers a coin to DW and he passes, it's fair game for me to pounce in and make an offer, okay?
For that matter, I am going to park outside Target and sell t-shirts in the parking lot to people leaving the store. Why not? They are done shopping at Target, right? >>
true, it is their parking lot...
but your table isn't DW's parking lot. The eavesdropping part would be the kill factor there. otherwise, we recently has a "shopping coins around" thread. I don't see a problem if DW has a loud voice, you know DW is not interested and if chance landed the customer in front of you.
But you are suggesting trolling at Target with t-shirts, vs. a chance encounter. In the strictest since, I imagine Target doesn't want any business done in its parking lot, and I agree with you on that. However, the one off chance encounter does not seem nearly as big of a deal as literally trolling the lot with t-shirts.
take away the troll and add a chance, one off encounter and what do you have to say?
<< <i>If this is cool, I am going to go to the next coin show, camp by Doug Winter's table, and whoever offers a coin to DW and he passes, it's fair game for me to pounce in and make an offer, okay?
For that matter, I am going to park outside Target and sell t-shirts in the parking lot to people leaving the store. Why not? They are done shopping at Target, right? >>
As long as you don't have a sign and are ought of sight when they go in.
Rampant currency debasement will be the most important investment trend of this decade, and it will devastate most people.
- Nick Giambruno Buy dollar insurance now, because the policy will cost more as the dollar becomes worth less.
The only thing clear to me is that if you're still wondering about it 20 years later, the encounted must have violated your own sense of ethics.
BTW, for me personally, if 1 is outright evil and 10 is angelic perfection, your encounter rates about a 4...... slightly skewed to the "less than perfectly ethical" side of things, but mitigated by the factors of circumstance.
<< <i>I can see the uneasiness. I think it centers around the fact that the buy hasn't driven away...if he's sitting in his car 10 minutes later, he may be contemplating going back into the shop to take up the $180 offer. You may have just taken a deal from the dealer.
That being said, I agree with RYK that I wouldn't lose sleep over it...at this point. >>
hmmm.... didn't think of that
0 being ethical... I'll change my opinion from a 1 to a 2 on this one.
<< <i>When I acutally had to take a class on ethics, it became immediately clear that in every "ethical dilema" there are people who will make strong arguments each way. If it weren't so, it wouldn't be an ethical dilema. >>
I believe that.
Suppose it happened in the parking lot of a show. Would that change things?
I figure it's okay, off premises and after a no-deal.
Lance.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
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of consummating the proprietor's failed deals, that would be a different story.
<< <i>Dealer rejected the offer and the guy left. It's not like you immediately ran after him, nor did you try to make a deal in the coin dealer's shop (where he's paying utilities, etc.). Would it be unethical if you'd bumped into the guy a week later and then did the deal? I don't see any issue here whatsoever. >>
Agree as long as it was off the dealer's property.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Similar scenario happen to me last week in reverse: I usually carry a few items over to the flea market dealers to sell (they are friends of mine) normally junk, but lately I have had numerous rolls of eagles that need to get gone. I happen to have some rolls in my bag. Guy walks into the flea market coin shop looking for eagles, they quote 34.00 each (680 roll) , and he passes. Course I don't say a word, or even give the indication I have any out of respect for their place of business.
About 45 min later, I am strolling around the front entrance (which I do on occasion to look at the table sellers (non coin), and happen to run into this guy.
I ask him if he still is looking for eagles, I tell him that I normally don't do "what I am about to do" and offer him the roll at 30 per coin?
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A person selling to me went out to his car, parked in front of store. Sat thier 15-20 minutes then return and sold me his coins.
I to believe with the person still sitting in his car he was probably considering the offer still.
You had the advantage of knowing he had coins, knowing the previous offer and knowing what he wanted.
All three of these from the dealers place of business . Paid for by advertising. Etc etc
20 years later I'm sure all would be forgiven on a small transaction.
Bringing it up shows you realized it wasn't quite right.
Bring a cup of coffee to your dealer and say thanks.
Don't loose sleep over it, but then I wouldn't do it again.
Jmho
<< <i>When I acutally had to take a class on ethics, it became immediately clear that in every "ethical dilema" there are people who will make strong arguments each way. If it weren't so, it wouldn't be an ethical dilema.
The only thing clear to me is that if you're still wondering about it 20 years later, the encounted must have violated your own sense of ethics.
BTW, for me personally, if 1 is outright evil and 10 is angelic perfection, your encounter rates about a 4...... slightly skewed to the "less than perfectly ethical" side of things, but mitigated by the factors of circumstance. >>
As everyone is fond of saying these days on the message boards...THIS.
New York Central. In the Buffalo station my grandfather had to go to the men's room.
He needed a stall. It was a pay toilet and he didn't have the dime in change. It
was close to an emergency.
I crawled under the door and opened it up for him. He did his business and later gave
me a nickel.
Later that month the chairman of the New York Central RR, Robert R. Young, committed
suicide in his Palm Beach mansion.
Am I partially responsible for his death?
<< <i>Just my little thought.
A person selling to me went out to his car, parked in front of store. Sat thier 15-20 minutes then return and sold me his coins.
I to believe with the person still sitting in his car he was probably considering the offer still.
You had the advantage of knowing he had coins, knowing the previous offer and knowing what he wanted.
All three of these from the dealers place of business . Paid for by advertising. Etc etc
20 years later I'm sure all would be forgiven on a small transaction.
Bringing it up shows you realized it wasn't quite right.
Bring a cup of coffee to your dealer and say thanks.
Don't loose sleep over it, but then I wouldn't do it again.
Jmho >>
I basically agree. If he was still in the dealer's parking lot, or vicinity, the seller was still considering the dealer's offer.
<< <i>In January 1958 my grandfather took me on a train ride from Rochester to Buffalo on the
New York Central. In the Buffalo station my grandfather had to go to the men's room.
He needed a stall. It was a pay toilet and he didn't have the dime in change. It
was close to an emergency.
I crawled under the door and opened it up for him. He did his business and later gave
me a nickel.
Later that month the chairman of the New York Central RR, Robert R. Young, committed
suicide in his Palm Beach mansion.
Am I partially responsible for his death? >>
the "Butterfly flaps its wings in China" theory of ethics
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Legend Baltimore Show Report
Thursday did not start slow at all. We ran out on the floor to buy. We were at smaller dealer's table who we like to buy cheaper type and dollars from and we see another dealer ahead of us put an Early $10 in his "to be priced" pile. We lean over and OMG it's a coin we have been looking for furiously for the past few months! Meanwhile we're trying to distract the owner and tell him not to sell the dealer the coin (he never saw us waving or blinking). By luck, the dealer had an NGC coin he was in less and passed. Did we exhale! One quick "what is your real best price?" and we were the owners of a $10 1797 LG Eagle PCGS AU53 CAC and made a very picky collector happy. Go try and find a $10 1797 LG Eagle in a PCGS AU CAC!! Our day was made in the first 10 minutes.
<< <i>I really can't believe what I am reading by way of some of the holier than thou responses. Lets cut to the chase one final time. The seller did not accept the buyer's offer in the buyer's place of business due to the price being too low. Later outside the buyer's place of business/his store and in the public parking lot/public domain the buyer who recognizes the seller this time in the seller's own domain/his car offers the seller more money and the buyer gladly accepts the higher offer and a legit deal is consumated. How anyone can show me how this is anything but eithical is something I am very interested in hearing, don't just tell me it is unethical, please tell me why you believe it is unethical, I really got to hear this....................really!
Let's say that you own an apartment building and advertise that you have a unit open for rent. A potential customer comes into your office, which you own or lease and pay tax, utilities, etc. and offers you $800/month. You say that you need $900/month. I happen to be there looking at bust half dimes with you and overhear the entire discussion.
Well, the customer says he cannot afford $900/month and walks out to his car, which is parked in your parking lot. BTW, it just so happens that I am also in the residential apartment business and put down the half dimes and follow the potential customer to his car. I approach him in your parking lot and tell him that I have a very similar apartment that I could rent to him for $875. He was about to come back to sign your lease, but is even happier that I have offered him a deal for a little less. It's a win-win scenario, right?
BTW, I agree that the OP scenario is about a 3.5 or 4 on the 10 point scale. As I said in my opening comment, it is not worth losing sleep over. If this is the most unethical thing that I or many of us has done in the past, I think the world would be a better place. If I were the guy in the parking lot, I would have told the OP to take a hike, so he gets to share some of the blame, if there is any, for ethical breach.
I would also add that RO's hurling insults, calling some us "holier than thou" is uncalled for. It's not like I called RO a scumbag for his position, though I suppose I could have.
<< <i>
<< <i>In January 1958 my grandfather took me on a train ride from Rochester to Buffalo on the
New York Central. In the Buffalo station my grandfather had to go to the men's room.
He needed a stall. It was a pay toilet and he didn't have the dime in change. It
was close to an emergency.
I crawled under the door and opened it up for him. He did his business and later gave
me a nickel.
Later that month the chairman of the New York Central RR, Robert R. Young, committed
suicide in his Palm Beach mansion.
Am I partially responsible for his death? >>
the "Butterfly flaps its wings in China" theory of ethics
Shame on you! JMHO.. you took food off the dealers table and without a care in the world. You came to the forum hoping to get everyone to agree with you and that did not happen sorry for your actions.
<< <i>As stated before it was ALL wrong. NOTHING was properly done.
Shame on you! JMHO.. you took food off the dealers table and without a care in the world. You came to the forum hoping to get everyone to agree with you and that did not happen sorry for your actions. >>
I disagree with the last part. I think that the OP did feel some guilt or remorse for his actions, and that is why he is still thinking about it 20 years later.
I have done at least 3 of these types of deals, never bugged me one bit
Corina's Coin shop link
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hG8eh5i3xFJnvTu58