<< <i>Just my little thought. A person selling to me went out to his car, parked in front of store. Sat thier 15-20 minutes then return and sold me his coins. I to believe with the person still sitting in his car he was probably considering the offer still. You had the advantage of knowing he had coins, knowing the previous offer and knowing what he wanted. All three of these from the dealers place of business . Paid for by advertising. Etc etc 20 years later I'm sure all would be forgiven on a small transaction. Bringing it up shows you realized it wasn't quite right. Bring a cup of coffee to your dealer and say thanks. Don't loose sleep over it, but then I wouldn't do it again. Jmho >>
If I lose the deal because I don't let the customer win, the deal went out the door. And what a man does with another man is none of my business. That's all I know. If they're both happy that's about as good as it gets in the ethics department. Or in short: It ain't no skin off my nose, but please refrain from doing it at the curb in front of the shop.
To me, it all comes down to the parking lot...was it a public lot ? A lot shared by an entire mall ? A few other shops ? Owned and maintained by the coin shop alone ?
I've never in my life been to a coin shop that owned their own parking lot, so therefore, I say this deal is completely legit
The detail that makes me want to "cut the OP some slack" is that (as described) the meeting in the parking lot was a chance encounter. The OP did not chase the customer out into the parking lot. He wasn't lurking in the parking lot, waiting for the customer to come out of the store. For all the OP knew, the customer had driven off (and if so, this scenario would never have occurred).
I understand why this is viewed as an ethical dilemma by some Forum members. I think that I could make an effective case for both positions, as well as for the opinion that this is an "on the fence" ethical example. As a case study, it would be even more interesting if the item purchased was a rare coin, for which the OP had been searching (unsuccessfully) for a decade or more (instead of just being a silver buy).
Amazingly enough, after a bit of thought, I am coming down on RealOnes side on this.
The debate over who owns the parking lot, whether 5 or 10 or 15 minutes is enough head start for the seller, seems all to be arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Didn't we just have a thread about Shopping an offer around to dealers where a common dealer response could be summed up as: "My offer is good until you walk away"? If the seller came back in to sell at $180, couldn't the price now be $150?
Certainly not any more unethical than my experience of buying a recently thumbed (excellent job BTW) PL Morgan from one of the Dealers who has posted here.
This wasn't exactly a "chance" encounter. The overhead that the dealer pays for (advertising, security, rent, parking, etc) brought the two parties together. In fact, this overhead is probably why the dealer could only offer $180, but the OP, who took advantage of the dealer's overhead, could offer $200.
In the grand scheme of things, it's a small ethical breach. If this happened to me, I'd probably send the dealer a small finder's fee for his role in bringing us together, and feel ok about that.
<< <i>The op stated it was about 10 minutes after the seller left the dealer's store...........I think that amount of time is sufficient to give a fresh offer, afterall you snooze you loose. The minute the dealer allowed the seller to leave the store he was willing to lose the transaction afterall it is considered a "Now sale". If the dealer wanted to change the offer he could have went outside to see if the seller was still around, he did neither. Time is up IMHO when the seller exists the situation, like RYK always seems to say "when one door closes another opens" and I think that fits this situation to a T.
For those who still aren't convinced, what is the appropriate amount of time, or what is the moment when a business transaction is deemed over? I say the above is suffficient . >>
I guess I don't see anyone getting wronged here, and there was no maulicious intent. The dealer wasn't wronged as his offer was refused and the guy left, he didn't lose anything. If the OP intentionally interfered with the dealer's business I'd have a major problem, but I don't believe that happened. There was no poaching going on. He let the business of the dealer be fully transacted with no interference. He didn't nose in, give wink, nod...
By the same token, is it unethical to strike up a conversation with someone in a coin shop that may have similar interests. What if I'm talking to another customer and he indicates in the conversation that he has some coin that I'd be very interested in. Can I ask him if he'd sell? Is that taking $ away from the dealer?
<< <i>Amazingly enough, after a bit of thought, I am coming down on RealOnes side on this.
The debate over who owns the parking lot, whether 5 or 10 or 15 minutes is enough head start for the seller, seems all to be arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Didn't we just have a thread about Shopping an offer around to dealers where a common dealer response could be summed up as: "My offer is good until you walk away"? If the seller came back in to sell at $180, couldn't the price now be $150? >>
It could be, but if the seller wouldn't take $180 what makes anyone think he'd take $150?
<< <i>That was not right. It is because of the dealer's establishment that person was there. You took advantage of that. If you had to pay the dealers rent would still be able to pay the $200? >>
LOL!
Sorry, maybe he should've followed the guy in his car, scoped out his house and waited at least a week to offer him $200 for the halves? Yep, then it woulda been fine.
<< <i>Dealer rejected the offer and the guy left. It's not like you immediately ran after him, nor did you try to make a deal in the coin dealer's shop (where he's paying utilities, etc.). Would it be unethical if you'd bumped into the guy a week later and then did the deal? I don't see any issue here whatsoever. >>
I agree 100%. The dealer had his chance but he threw the fish back. Good luck to every other fisherman.
Thursday did not start slow at all. We ran out on the floor to buy. We were at smaller dealer's table who we like to buy cheaper type and dollars from and we see another dealer ahead of us put an Early $10 in his "to be priced" pile. We lean over and OMG it's a coin we have been looking for furiously for the past few months! Meanwhile we're trying to distract the owner and tell him not to sell the dealer the coin (he never saw us waving or blinking). By luck, the dealer had an NGC coin he was in less and passed. Did we exhale! One quick "what is your real best price?" and we were the owners of a $10 1797 LG Eagle PCGS AU53 CAC and made a very picky collector happy. Go try and find a $10 1797 LG Eagle in a PCGS AU CAC!! Our day was made in the first 10 minutes. >>
Hilariously awesome. Oh calling all holier than thou types...
To me, it all comes down to the parking lot...was it a public lot ? A lot shared by an entire mall ? A few other shops ? Owned and maintained by the coin shop.
This specific shop was in a strip mall. So in a way, the dealer was indirectly paying for a few stalls, I guess.
In hindsight, I would not do this again, as it felt strange.
I truly appreciate B&M dealers, and sure don't want to take advantage of them.
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
<< <i>To me, it all comes down to the parking lot...was it a public lot ? A lot shared by an entire mall ? A few other shops ? Owned and maintained by the coin shop.
This specific shop was in a strip mall. So in a way, the dealer was indirectly paying for a few stalls, I guess.
In hindsight, I would not do this again, as it felt strange.
I truly appreciate B&M dealers, and sure don't want to take advantage of them.
Dave >>
You buy a coin thru eBay auction for $30. You pay mit PayPal and leave feedback, get your coin and all is well. A month later the same seller has a $1500 coin on eBay with no bids. You go to your previous PP transaction and from the email provided, you contact the seller and offer him $1400 by money order to end the listing and sell it to you. He accepts. Ethical or not? Do you feel that you owe eBay anything for providing an opportunity for which they only got listing fees? If you were an eBay seller, would you be ok with it if eBay charged a $50 listing surcharge that would only be refunded if your listing ran to completion?
20 years ago the world was a different place. Where was he going to go with this stuff? There was no E-Bay or Paypal or all these on-line auctions. You probably did the guy a huge favor saving him from driving 50 miles to the next B&M.
<< <i>20 years ago the world was a different place. Where was he going to go with this stuff? There was no E-Bay or Paypal or all these on-line auctions. You probably did the guy a huge favor saving him from driving 50 miles to the next B&M. >>
He obviously had a place to flip it to or he wouldn't have offered anything for it. I doubt that most B & Ms buy walkin stuff and put it on eBay.
grading and ethics are two of the most subjective aspects of this hobby. the dealer was not willing to pay $200 and you were. had you offered him the $200 in the store, well that would have been a bit intrusive, but the parking lot is fair game, i see nothing wrong with what you did, you recognized an opportunity and acted on it, would you feel any different if the guy would have approached YOU ? im sorry, i just dont see any wrong doing
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
<< <i>grading and ethics are two of the most subjective aspects of this hobby. the dealer was not willing to pay $200 and you were. had you offered him the $200 in the store, well that would have been a bit intrusive, but the parking lot is fair game, i see nothing wrong with what you did, you recognized an opportunity and acted on it, would you feel any different if the guy would have approached YOU ? im sorry, i just dont see any wrong doing >>
Because the dealer in the B and M didnt offer the guy what he wanted,he passed,you played.Done at a show,NOT COOL!
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
<<If this is cool, I am going to go to the next coin show, camp by Doug Winter's table, and whoever offers a coin to DW and he passes, it's fair game for me to pounce in and make an offer, okay?
For that matter, I am going to park outside Target and sell t-shirts in the parking lot to people leaving the store. Why not? They are done shopping at Target, right? >>
I think one reason why it might be considered unethical is because "walking away" is sometimes part of the negotiation. The seller, given time to think, might have returned to the B&M and accepted the deal.
But after all these years ... as Mark Twain said: Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life.
Bad analogy. The bourse is not a parking lot, and the public isn't offering Target anything to buy. I don't see anything wrong with what transpired, because you saw these pieces in a shop you can't buy them in some other venue? What if you ran into the man a few weeks later on the street, is asking him if he still has the Franklins a no-no? What would have been wrong would have been to ask the man in the shop, but I'm sure then that the dealer would have let you know The dealer in question doesn't retain any exclusivity on an item he declined to buy once it has left the shop.
Good point! I paid to be on the bourse, not the parking lot, so I should be able to make deals and transact with whomever I want on the bourse, including, but not limited to, interrupting deals in progress. It might be boorish, but hardly unethical.
<< <i>I think one reason why it might be considered unethical is because "walking away" is sometimes part of the negotiation. The seller, given time to think, might have returned to the B&M and accepted the deal. >>
<< <i>To me, it all comes down to the parking lot...was it a public lot ? A lot shared by an entire mall ? A few other shops ? Owned and maintained by the coin shop.
This specific shop was in a strip mall. So in a way, the dealer was indirectly paying for a few stalls, I guess.
In hindsight, I would not do this again, as it felt strange.
I truly appreciate B&M dealers, and sure don't want to take advantage of them.
Dave >>
You buy a coin thru eBay auction for $30. You pay mit PayPal and leave feedback, get your coin and all is well. A month later the same seller has a $1500 coin on eBay with no bids. You go to your previous PP transaction and from the email provided, you contact the seller and offer him $1400 by money order to end the listing and sell it to you. He accepts. Ethical or not? Do you feel that you owe eBay anything for providing an opportunity for which they only got listing fees? If you were an eBay seller, would you be ok with it if eBay charged a $50 listing surcharge that would only be refunded if your listing ran to completion? >>
Some items are advertised on ebay but never sold on ebay. Search "Steinway Piano" you will see several items listed for over $50,000. Nobody is going to buy a Steinway on ebay. The buyer wants to see it and play it in person. So, ebay is just a free classified. No listing fee. Just a forum for buyers to find sellers.
20 years ago the Sunday NY Times would have 20+ classified ads for Steinway pianos. Now with ebay and craigslist there are none.
<< <i>To me, it all comes down to the parking lot...was it a public lot ? A lot shared by an entire mall ? A few other shops ? Owned and maintained by the coin shop.
This specific shop was in a strip mall. So in a way, the dealer was indirectly paying for a few stalls, I guess.
In hindsight, I would not do this again, as it felt strange.
I truly appreciate B&M dealers, and sure don't want to take advantage of them.
Dave >>
You buy a coin thru eBay auction for $30. You pay mit PayPal and leave feedback, get your coin and all is well. A month later the same seller has a $1500 coin on eBay with no bids. You go to your previous PP transaction and from the email provided, you contact the seller and offer him $1400 by money order to end the listing and sell it to you. He accepts. Ethical or not? Do you feel that you owe eBay anything for providing an opportunity for which they only got listing fees? If you were an eBay seller, would you be ok with it if eBay charged a $50 listing surcharge that would only be refunded if your listing ran to completion? >>
Some items are advertised on ebay but never sold on ebay. Search "Steinway Piano" you will see several items listed for over $50,000. Nobody is going to buy a Steinway on ebay. The buyer wants to see it and play it in person. So, ebay is just a free classified. No listing fee. Just a forum for buyers to find sellers.
20 years ago the Sunday NY Times would have 20+ classified ads for Steinway pianos. Now with ebay and craigslist there are none. >>
Without eBay you likely may have not known about the $1500 coin, so is it ethical to use their services without paying for them?
I think the 20+ years of shame & guilt that OP has been burdened with are more than enough penance what whatever degree of ethical breach may have occurred.
<< <i>The op stated it was about 10 minutes after the seller left the dealer's store...........I think that amount of time is sufficient to give a fresh offer, afterall you snooze you loose. The minute the dealer allowed the seller to leave the store he was willing to lose the transaction afterall it is considered a "Now sale". If the dealer wanted to change the offer he could have went outside to see if the seller was still around, he did neither. Time is up IMHO when the seller exists the situation, like RYK always seems to say "when one door closes another opens" and I think that fits this situation to a T.
For those who still aren't convinced, what is the appropriate amount of time, or what is the moment when a business transaction is deemed over? I say the above is suffficient . >>
Not that this hasn't all been hashed out already, but for the record:
Interrupt a deal in the dealer's store with a wink of an eye/blinking rapidly, bumping into the seller, peering over shoulders in the middle of the transaction? All or any of this should and would earn you a fast trip out of the dealer's place of business, and "persona non grata" status, temporarily at least, and probably for a long time up to and including forever. Not cool.
Waiting til the offer was spurned and then running out the door to catch the would-be seller to make your own deal? Also not very cool, slightly less of an affront than the above, but you still very well wouldn't likely find yourself welcomed back.
Chance meeting outside out of the business premises and not in a ran-out-the-door situation to catch up with would-be seller? Perfectly fine.
-------
At a show: Same thing, I wouldn't in good conscience try to interrupt a deal, much less blog about it. When at/in the vicinity of a dealer's table, that is their place of bizness that they paid for the table space, etc. at. You don't try to do your own deals in their space.
Now, if you happen to hear an offer being turned down -- and a bit later, several rows away and out of eye and earshot -- if your other party is amenable, I see nothing wrong with doing a deal. No dealer owns first rights of refusal to any and all deals anywhere on the bourse -- ONLY their little corner of it (how do they feel about dealers who don't set up, but just walk the show?) Nor do I see any reason to go back to the original dealer and brag nor ask for forgiveness nor offer penance $$$. It is what it is; let common sense be your guide, and treat others as you would wish to be treated.
If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it??
<< <i>If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it?? >>
You sure can, the key being, you ask him away from the table.
<< <i>If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it?? >>
If you're close enough to hear the offer and refusal, you're close enough to ask the dealer "If you're not going to buy it, do you mind if I make an offer?" Of course, another option is to pay for a table yourself and make your offers there...
<< <i>If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it?? >>
If you're close enough to hear the offer and refusal, you're close enough to ask the dealer "If you're not going to buy it, do you mind if I make an offer?" Of course, another option is to pay for a table yourself and make your offers there... >>
<< <i>If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it?? >>
You sure can, the key being, you ask him away from the table. >>
Agree---just do the deal outside the show if you don't have a table there.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it?? >>
You sure can, the key being, you ask him away from the table. >>
Couple of presumptions here, one, the parking lot, it was not disclosed (in the OP) who owned the lot. Two, what the 'seller' was thinking about while sitting in his car. For all anyone knows he may have been thinking 'where am I going to get the 200.00 now for that hooker'.
Successful business with: savoyspecial,Cazkaboom,stone,Brol,robkool,nibanny,AUandAG,mdkuom,REALGATOR,jimineez1,theump, indeetlib,mariner67,PlatinumDuck,nags,tlake22,guitarwes
<< <i>I cannot beleive that you guys are still beating this dead horse, what a slow news day?? >>
This is my last post to this thread. Clearly, the OP is in a grey area. There are reasonable arguments for either side and good arguments for taking no side. Where one draws ethical lines is personal. Obviously, it is not ethical to gun down the guy with the Frankies and steal them (it's also not legal), but the best argument for the OP's tactic being questionable is that he is still thinking about it 20 years down the road. I have made similar mistakes (they are mistakes in my mind, maybe not yours) in the past, and they occasionally trouble me when I think about it. I have learned from them and largely moved on.
Speaking of moving on, I think I will start a thread about coins.
The B&M dealer pays rent, utilities, salaries, tax, etc. Trolling outside his shop to scoop up deals that fell through does not seem right to me. >>
I agree, it's not the right thing to do. It's basically the same as sitting next to a dealer's table at a coin show and making offers to his customers if they fail to reach agreement on a deal.
The B&M dealer pays rent, utilities, salaries, tax, etc. Trolling outside his shop to scoop up deals that fell through does not seem right to me. >>
I agree, it's not the right thing to do. It's basically the same as sitting next to a dealer's table at a coin show and making offers to his customers if they fail to reach agreement on a deal. >>
This is not the scenerio posted in the openning post.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The B&M dealer pays rent, utilities, salaries, tax, etc. Trolling outside his shop to scoop up deals that fell through does not seem right to me. >>
I agree, it's not the right thing to do. It's basically the same as sitting next to a dealer's table at a coin show and making offers to his customers if they fail to reach agreement on a deal. >>
This is not the scenerio posted in the openning post. >>
It isn't precisely, but the situation is an equal comparison. Dave99b's going to try to buy the coin from the coin shop's customer before the customer had even left the shop's parking lot is the same as if he was at a coin show, and was standing next to a coin dealer's table in order to try to buy coin's from someone who the dealer was trying to make a deal with. Who knows if the customer in the car wasn't still considering going back and selling the coins to the shop.
Personally I think OP is a stand up guy with good morals and ethics; the fact that this still bugs him 20 years later proves that....and frankly, if I were the dealer in this scenario and OP told me what happened, even though I wouldn't be thrilled about it (he very well might have been sitting in the car contemplating coming back in and accepting my offer for all OP knew), I would simply request that it not happen again and forget it.
Comments
<< <i>Just my little thought.
A person selling to me went out to his car, parked in front of store. Sat thier 15-20 minutes then return and sold me his coins.
I to believe with the person still sitting in his car he was probably considering the offer still.
You had the advantage of knowing he had coins, knowing the previous offer and knowing what he wanted.
All three of these from the dealers place of business . Paid for by advertising. Etc etc
20 years later I'm sure all would be forgiven on a small transaction.
Bringing it up shows you realized it wasn't quite right.
Bring a cup of coffee to your dealer and say thanks.
Don't loose sleep over it, but then I wouldn't do it again.
Jmho >>
I agree with this.
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
I've never in my life been to a coin shop that owned their own parking lot, so therefore, I say this deal is completely legit
I understand why this is viewed as an ethical dilemma by some Forum members. I think that I could make an effective case for both positions, as well as for the opinion that this is an "on the fence" ethical example. As a case study, it would be even more interesting if the item purchased was a rare coin, for which the OP had been searching (unsuccessfully) for a decade or more (instead of just being a silver buy).
The debate over who owns the parking lot, whether 5 or 10 or 15 minutes is enough head start for the seller, seems all to be arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Didn't we just have a thread about Shopping an offer around to dealers where a common dealer response could be summed up as: "My offer is good until you walk away"? If the seller came back in to sell at $180, couldn't the price now be $150?
Greg
In the grand scheme of things, it's a small ethical breach. If this happened to me, I'd probably send the dealer a small finder's fee for his role in bringing us together, and feel ok about that.
<< <i>The op stated it was about 10 minutes after the seller left the dealer's store...........I think that amount of time is sufficient to give a fresh offer, afterall you snooze you loose. The minute the dealer allowed the seller to leave the store he was willing to lose the transaction afterall it is considered a "Now sale". If the dealer wanted to change the offer he could have went outside to see if the seller was still around, he did neither. Time is up IMHO when the seller exists the situation, like RYK always seems to say "when one door closes another opens" and I think that fits this situation to a T.
For those who still aren't convinced, what is the appropriate amount of time, or what is the moment when a business transaction is deemed over? I say the above is suffficient . >>
It isn't over till it's over!!
By the same token, is it unethical to strike up a conversation with someone in a coin shop that may have similar interests. What if I'm talking to another customer and he indicates in the conversation that he has some coin that I'd be very interested in. Can I ask him if he'd sell? Is that taking $ away from the dealer?
<< <i>Amazingly enough, after a bit of thought, I am coming down on RealOnes side on this.
The debate over who owns the parking lot, whether 5 or 10 or 15 minutes is enough head start for the seller, seems all to be arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Didn't we just have a thread about Shopping an offer around to dealers where a common dealer response could be summed up as: "My offer is good until you walk away"? If the seller came back in to sell at $180, couldn't the price now be $150? >>
It could be, but if the seller wouldn't take $180 what makes anyone think he'd take $150?
<< <i>That was not right. It is because of the dealer's establishment that person was there. You took advantage of that. If you had to pay the dealers rent would still be able to pay the $200? >>
LOL!
Sorry, maybe he should've followed the guy in his car, scoped out his house and waited at least a week to offer him $200 for the halves? Yep, then it woulda been fine.
<< <i>Dealer rejected the offer and the guy left. It's not like you immediately ran after him, nor did you try to make a deal in the coin dealer's shop (where he's paying utilities, etc.). Would it be unethical if you'd bumped into the guy a week later and then did the deal? I don't see any issue here whatsoever. >>
I agree 100%. The dealer had his chance but he threw the fish back. Good luck to every other fisherman.
<< <i>If you weren't waving or blinking while the dealer was looking the coins over it's far more ethical then this...
Legend Baltimore Show Report
Thursday did not start slow at all. We ran out on the floor to buy. We were at smaller dealer's table who we like to buy cheaper type and dollars from and we see another dealer ahead of us put an Early $10 in his "to be priced" pile. We lean over and OMG it's a coin we have been looking for furiously for the past few months! Meanwhile we're trying to distract the owner and tell him not to sell the dealer the coin (he never saw us waving or blinking). By luck, the dealer had an NGC coin he was in less and passed. Did we exhale! One quick "what is your real best price?" and we were the owners of a $10 1797 LG Eagle PCGS AU53 CAC and made a very picky collector happy. Go try and find a $10 1797 LG Eagle in a PCGS AU CAC!! Our day was made in the first 10 minutes. >>
Hilariously awesome. Oh calling all holier than thou types...
This specific shop was in a strip mall. So in a way, the dealer was indirectly paying for a few stalls, I guess.
In hindsight, I would not do this again, as it felt strange.
I truly appreciate B&M dealers, and sure don't want to take advantage of them.
Dave
<< <i>To me, it all comes down to the parking lot...was it a public lot ? A lot shared by an entire mall ? A few other shops ? Owned and maintained by the coin shop.
This specific shop was in a strip mall. So in a way, the dealer was indirectly paying for a few stalls, I guess.
In hindsight, I would not do this again, as it felt strange.
I truly appreciate B&M dealers, and sure don't want to take advantage of them.
Dave >>
You buy a coin thru eBay auction for $30. You pay mit PayPal and leave feedback, get your coin and all is well. A month later the same seller has a $1500 coin on eBay with no bids. You go to your previous PP transaction and from the email provided, you contact the seller and offer him $1400 by money order to end the listing and sell it to you. He accepts. Ethical or not? Do you feel that you owe eBay anything for providing an opportunity for which they only got listing fees? If you were an eBay seller, would you be ok with it if eBay charged a $50 listing surcharge that would only be refunded if your listing ran to completion?
<< <i>20 years ago the world was a different place. Where was he going to go with this stuff? There was no E-Bay or Paypal or all these on-line auctions. You probably did the guy a huge favor saving him from driving 50 miles to the next B&M. >>
He obviously had a place to flip it to or he wouldn't have offered anything for it. I doubt that most B & Ms buy walkin stuff and put it on eBay.
<< <i>grading and ethics are two of the most subjective aspects of this hobby. the dealer was not willing to pay $200 and you were. had you offered him the $200 in the store, well that would have been a bit intrusive, but the parking lot is fair game, i see nothing wrong with what you did, you recognized an opportunity and acted on it, would you feel any different if the guy would have approached YOU ? im sorry, i just dont see any wrong doing >>
Because the dealer in the B and M didnt offer the guy what he wanted,he passed,you played.Done at a show,NOT COOL!
For that matter, I am going to park outside Target and sell t-shirts in the parking lot to people leaving the store. Why not? They are done shopping at Target, right? >>
sounds like Radiation sickness to me
I bought a bunch of the 1961 and 1962 Obw Franklin rolls at $50 at that time.
So do not feel guilty!!!
But after all these years ... as Mark Twain said: Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life.
The dealer in question doesn't retain any exclusivity on an item he declined to buy once it has left the shop.
Good point! I paid to be on the bourse, not the parking lot, so I should be able to make deals and transact with whomever I want on the bourse, including, but not limited to, interrupting deals in progress. It might be boorish, but hardly unethical.
<< <i>I think one reason why it might be considered unethical is because "walking away" is sometimes part of the negotiation. The seller, given time to think, might have returned to the B&M and accepted the deal. >>
Exactly this.
<< <i>
<< <i>To me, it all comes down to the parking lot...was it a public lot ? A lot shared by an entire mall ? A few other shops ? Owned and maintained by the coin shop.
This specific shop was in a strip mall. So in a way, the dealer was indirectly paying for a few stalls, I guess.
In hindsight, I would not do this again, as it felt strange.
I truly appreciate B&M dealers, and sure don't want to take advantage of them.
Dave >>
You buy a coin thru eBay auction for $30. You pay mit PayPal and leave feedback, get your coin and all is well. A month later the same seller has a $1500 coin on eBay with no bids. You go to your previous PP transaction and from the email provided, you contact the seller and offer him $1400 by money order to end the listing and sell it to you. He accepts. Ethical or not? Do you feel that you owe eBay anything for providing an opportunity for which they only got listing fees? If you were an eBay seller, would you be ok with it if eBay charged a $50 listing surcharge that would only be refunded if your listing ran to completion? >>
Some items are advertised on ebay but never sold on ebay. Search "Steinway Piano" you will see several items listed for over $50,000. Nobody is going to buy a Steinway
on ebay. The buyer wants to see it and play it in person. So, ebay is just a free classified. No listing fee. Just a forum for buyers to find sellers.
20 years ago the Sunday NY Times would have 20+ classified ads for Steinway pianos. Now with ebay and craigslist there are none.
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<< <i>
<< <i>To me, it all comes down to the parking lot...was it a public lot ? A lot shared by an entire mall ? A few other shops ? Owned and maintained by the coin shop.
This specific shop was in a strip mall. So in a way, the dealer was indirectly paying for a few stalls, I guess.
In hindsight, I would not do this again, as it felt strange.
I truly appreciate B&M dealers, and sure don't want to take advantage of them.
Dave >>
You buy a coin thru eBay auction for $30. You pay mit PayPal and leave feedback, get your coin and all is well. A month later the same seller has a $1500 coin on eBay with no bids. You go to your previous PP transaction and from the email provided, you contact the seller and offer him $1400 by money order to end the listing and sell it to you. He accepts. Ethical or not? Do you feel that you owe eBay anything for providing an opportunity for which they only got listing fees? If you were an eBay seller, would you be ok with it if eBay charged a $50 listing surcharge that would only be refunded if your listing ran to completion? >>
Some items are advertised on ebay but never sold on ebay. Search "Steinway Piano" you will see several items listed for over $50,000. Nobody is going to buy a Steinway
on ebay. The buyer wants to see it and play it in person. So, ebay is just a free classified. No listing fee. Just a forum for buyers to find sellers.
20 years ago the Sunday NY Times would have 20+ classified ads for Steinway pianos. Now with ebay and craigslist there are none. >>
Without eBay you likely may have not known about the $1500 coin, so is it ethical to use their services without paying for them?
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>The seller if he came back to accept the lowball offer... >>
The fact the seller wanted more doesn't make it a lowball offer, you know. The OP said the dealer's offer was fair in the first post.
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<< <i>The op stated it was about 10 minutes after the seller left the dealer's store...........I think that amount of time is sufficient to give a fresh offer, afterall you snooze you loose. The minute the dealer allowed the seller to leave the store he was willing to lose the transaction afterall it is considered a "Now sale". If the dealer wanted to change the offer he could have went outside to see if the seller was still around, he did neither. Time is up IMHO when the seller exists the situation, like RYK always seems to say "when one door closes another opens" and I think that fits this situation to a T.
For those who still aren't convinced, what is the appropriate amount of time, or what is the moment when a business transaction is deemed over? I say the above is suffficient . >>
It isn't over till it's over!!
LOL ... It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings.
Interrupt a deal in the dealer's store with a wink of an eye/blinking rapidly, bumping into the seller, peering over shoulders in the middle of the transaction? All or any of this should and would earn you a fast trip out of the dealer's place of business, and "persona non grata" status, temporarily at least, and probably for a long time up to and including forever. Not cool.
Waiting til the offer was spurned and then running out the door to catch the would-be seller to make your own deal? Also not very cool, slightly less of an affront than the above, but you still very well wouldn't likely find yourself welcomed back.
Chance meeting outside out of the business premises and not in a ran-out-the-door situation to catch up with would-be seller? Perfectly fine.
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At a show: Same thing, I wouldn't in good conscience try to interrupt a deal, much less blog about it. When at/in the vicinity of a dealer's table, that is their place of bizness that they paid for the table space, etc. at. You don't try to do your own deals in their space.
Now, if you happen to hear an offer being turned down -- and a bit later, several rows away and out of eye and earshot -- if your other party is amenable, I see nothing wrong with doing a deal. No dealer owns first rights of refusal to any and all deals anywhere on the bourse -- ONLY their little corner of it (how do they feel about dealers who don't set up, but just walk the show?) Nor do I see any reason to go back to the original dealer and brag nor ask for forgiveness nor offer penance $$$. It is what it is; let common sense be your guide, and treat others as you would wish to be treated.
Lafayette Grading Set
<< <i>If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it?? >>
You sure can, the key being, you ask him away from the table.
<< <i>If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it?? >>
If you're close enough to hear the offer and refusal, you're close enough to ask the dealer "If you're not going to buy it, do you mind if I make an offer?" Of course, another option is to pay for a table yourself and make your offers there...
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<< <i>If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it?? >>
If you're close enough to hear the offer and refusal, you're close enough to ask the dealer "If you're not going to buy it, do you mind if I make an offer?" Of course, another option is to pay for a table yourself and make your offers there...
<< <i>
<< <i>If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it?? >>
You sure can, the key being, you ask him away from the table. >>
Agree---just do the deal outside the show if you don't have a table there.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>If I'm at a dealers table and a guy offers the dealer a holed Missouri commem and the dealer tells him it's junk silver and offers him spot for it and the seller refuses may I ask the seller away from the table what he would take for it?? >>
You sure can, the key being, you ask him away from the table. >>
"Discretion" is the key word.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Two, what the 'seller' was thinking about while sitting in his car. For all anyone knows he may have been
thinking 'where am I going to get the 200.00 now for that hooker'.
My Ebay Store
Take the transaction off site.
<< <i>I cannot beleive that you guys are still beating this dead horse, what a slow news day?? >>
This is my last post to this thread. Clearly, the OP is in a grey area. There are reasonable arguments for either side and good arguments for taking no side. Where one draws ethical lines is personal. Obviously, it is not ethical to gun down the guy with the Frankies and steal them (it's also not legal), but the best argument for the OP's tactic being questionable is that he is still thinking about it 20 years down the road. I have made similar mistakes (they are mistakes in my mind, maybe not yours) in the past, and they occasionally trouble me when I think about it. I have learned from them and largely moved on.
Speaking of moving on, I think I will start a thread about coins.
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<< <i>Why didn't it seem right to you? >>
Me or Dave?
The B&M dealer pays rent, utilities, salaries, tax, etc. Trolling outside his shop to scoop up deals that fell through does not seem right to me. >>
I agree, it's not the right thing to do. It's basically the same as sitting next to a dealer's table at a coin show and making offers to his customers if they fail to reach agreement on a deal.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Why didn't it seem right to you? >>
Me or Dave?
The B&M dealer pays rent, utilities, salaries, tax, etc. Trolling outside his shop to scoop up deals that fell through does not seem right to me. >>
I agree, it's not the right thing to do. It's basically the same as sitting next to a dealer's table at a coin show and making offers to his customers if they fail to reach agreement on a deal. >>
This is not the scenerio posted in the openning post.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why didn't it seem right to you? >>
Me or Dave?
The B&M dealer pays rent, utilities, salaries, tax, etc. Trolling outside his shop to scoop up deals that fell through does not seem right to me. >>
I agree, it's not the right thing to do. It's basically the same as sitting next to a dealer's table at a coin show and making offers to his customers if they fail to reach agreement on a deal. >>
This is not the scenerio posted in the openning post. >>
It isn't precisely, but the situation is an equal comparison. Dave99b's going to try to buy the coin from the coin shop's customer before the customer had even left the shop's parking lot is the same as if he was at a coin show, and was standing next to a coin dealer's table in order to try to buy coin's from someone who the dealer was trying to make a deal with. Who knows if the customer in the car wasn't still considering going back and selling the coins to the shop.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012