Opinions Please - Hypothetical Situation - R7 versus R4

CharlotteDude · March 27, 2013 9:10AM

Need a sanity check, please. Here's the hypothetical scenario: A collector attends a national coin show, looking for a couple specific dates in the Early Bust Half Dollar series. He finds a date he's looking for at a highly reputed dealer's table. The dealer tells him that the coin is an "R-7" variety and even states that it was confirmed by a renown expert in the field. Since the collector didn't bring his die-marriage variety book, (which would've weighed his back-pack down another 10-12 pounds - again, this is a hypothetical situation!), he takes the dealer's word for it. Now mind you, the collector has bought and sold many coins from/to this dealer, and has no reason to doubt, nor suspect the dealer's claim about the variety. Because the coin is supposedly an "R-7" variety, the dealer asks @ $500 - $1000 more than he would typically ask for a more common "R-3 - R-4" variety. The collector pays the dealer's asking price, thinking he not only has the date he's looking for, but also an "R-7" variety at that. When the collector gets home, he pulls his trusty Bust Half Dollar Variety Book out and after much research and comparison, realizes the coin is definitely NOT an R-7 variety, but is actually an R-4. Upon this realization, the collector contacts the dealer, forwarding him pictures of the coin, showing and describing the characteristics that indeed confirm the coin as an R-4... what would you do, if you were the collector?

1) Contact the dealer (with whom you have a good buy/sell relationship) and request at least a partial refund of $500-$1000? (To match the difference between what the dealer would've asked for an R-4 in the first place)
2) Contact the dealer and advise him that you wish to return the coin and request a full refund?
3) Ignore the fact that the coin was mis-represented and do nothing/keep the coin?

Disclaimer - the collector does not believe the dealer purposefully mislead him about the die variety. As noted earlier, the dealer states that the coin was examined by a renown expert in the series, and was more than likely taking his (the expert's) word for it.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this -

'dude

Unknown · March 27, 2013 9:15AM

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blu62vette · March 27, 2013 9:22AM

I guess I cant comment because R numbers mean nothing to me.

SmEagle1795 · March 27, 2013 9:27AM

I've seen some dealers call coins "R7-R8" by combining variety + grade to determine rarity, which is a blatant misinterpretation of rarity scales, but it's possible that this is the figure they're referring to.

"I have a super rare 1976 1C Memorial Reverse in MS66 which is an R8!"

BustCuds · March 27, 2013 9:32AM

#1...Everybody makes a mistake and am sure the dealer doesn't want to loose a loyal customer over one transaction.

CharlotteDude · March 27, 2013 9:35AM

I've seen some dealers call coins "R7-R8" by combining variety + grade to determine rarity, which is a blatant misinterpretation of rarity scales, but it's possible that this is the figure they're referring to.

"I have a super rare 1976 1C Memorial Reverse in MS66 which is an R8!"

I could see that being a possible case with a modern, or even 20th century coin, but not something from the early 1800's (pre 1807) where any variety of the date over the lower-mid mint state range (ie, MS-63) is very far and few between.

'dude

CharlotteDude · March 27, 2013 9:46AM

#1...Everybody makes a mistake and am sure the dealer doesn't want to loose a loyal customer over one transaction.

That's what the hypothetical collector hopes for also...

'dude

mozin · March 27, 2013 1:25PM

The price differential for a R7 compared to an R4 seems to be way too small. Since you like to deal with this dealer, best discuss the fact that the coin is not a R7, therefore worth much less money. In the future, don't trust what the dealer says for rarity. At most coin shows, you could find someone that has the current rarities correctly listed.

CoinJunkie · March 27, 2013 2:48PM

I'd contact the dealer and state that "upon further review" the coin is not as rare as he
asserted it was. Assuming he acknowledges that, I would then try and come to terms
on a new, lower price that is mutually acceptable. That may be impossible if, for instance,
he bought the coin for "R7 money" and doesn't want to take a big loss immediately.

If you come to terms, great. If not, send the coin back without enmity and assume it
was an honest mistake unless you have good reason to suspect otherwise.

jdimmick · March 27, 2013 3:19PM

I guess I would have to disagree and say "My fault I should have done my own investigative work" before purchasing. Id have to eat it

If I had a really good relationship , I would mention it to the dealer, but would not expect him to make it right, "hope that he would, but would not expect it" per above

Unknown · March 27, 2013 5:03PM

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stealer · March 27, 2013 5:21PM

<< <i>The price differential for a R7 compared to an R4 seems to be way too small. Since you like to deal with this dealer, best discuss the fact that the coin is not a R7, therefore worth much less money. In the future, don't trust what the dealer says for rarity. At most coin shows, you could find someone that has the current rarities correctly listed. >>

I agree...something seems amiss. I would think an R7 Bust Half variety would command a far greater premium over your average Bust Half of the same date/grade than $500-$1000.

milkcoin · March 27, 2013 5:38PM

I'd bring the issue forth to the dealer and see what he does. If it genuinely was a mistaken identity in the die marriage and is only a Rarity 4, then I'd tell him that and see if he could give you a refund for the difference or a full. I don't see why you should keep a coin when the dealer represented the sale as something else. Just my two cents

BillJones · March 27, 2013 11:09PM

I would contact the dealer, discuss the situation and ask for a partial refund. Failing that I'd ask to return the piece for a full refund.

Any reputable dealer whom you have had a relationship should accommodate you, and perhaps pay the return postage. It has happened for me.

Mistakes happen, especially with items like Bust half dollars, which I sometimes find tough to attribute by die variety. Have you tried finding the Overton number on a worn 1827 lately?

TahoeDale · March 28, 2013 1:23AM

The other side of the coin-----

I had a similar occurrence at a recent major show--this time a coin that was not attributed, and a large price asked for a beautifully toned CBH.

The dealer was an expert, trading CBH's for years, and touting that expertise with multiple attributed halves, and big prices for the rare ones. But
in this case, all the hype about this particular coin was due to its beauty, and not its rarity( he had not tried to attribute it).

I paid his asking price( way over market) and then learned it was a possible rare variety(R-7). I also was not concerned with the Overton number,
basing my buy on the color.

The dealer was later told that he had sold an R-7( another dealer had looked at the coin), and the dealer contacted me.

What to do?

mrpotatoheadd · March 28, 2013 2:06AM

I encountered a similar situation several years ago. I purchased a group of coins at a show from a dealer I've done a lot of business with. In the group was one coin that was identified by variety and its value was a fair percentage of the total deal. When I got home and checked my catalog, it turned out the scarcer variety noted was not correct and the coin was instead a more common one. Based on the way the catalog was laid out, it appeared to be an easy mistake to make.

So- what to do?

I could take the coin back along with the catalog to show the dealer and see about getting an adjustment in the price I paid (I have no doubt whatsoever that he would be agreeable to this) or I could just let it go. As I bought the coins for resale, I figured that even with overpaying for the one coin, I could probably still end up making a couple of bucks on the deal when all was said and done so I decided not to say anything and just make the best of it. In the past, I'd bought other deals from the same guy that I'd done real well with (some that he had brought to the show specifically for me) and I figured just keeping the misidentified coin was a small price to pay in order to help assure access to future deals.

Would I have done the same thing if the circumstances were different? I don't know- maybe not.

rhedden · March 28, 2013 2:12AM

I once had a dealer at a small-town show try to sell me an 1830 "large letters" O-114 bust half for $1,800 in G4. He quietly whispered that a collector had just cherrypicked it on the other side of the room for a measly $30, then flipped it to him 2 minutes later. The trouble was that it absolutely wasn't an O-114. It took me all of 2 seconds to pass on it without questioning his attribution, and I saw the dealer's face flush as he started sweating bullets, realizing that he had just paid a stranger big money for a $30 coin. If he paid cash, he was really screwed, because the "collector" who pulled a fast one on him was more of a vest-pocket con artist, and he was nowhere to be seen. I guess this is the reverse situation of the OP's hypothetical! At least the coin was purchased from a reputable dealer in this case.

TPRC · March 28, 2013 2:24AM

Legally, I think you would be entitled to number 1 or 2; however, the simplest solution if you could not come to terms on value is number 2-rescission, since the coin was represented as something it wasn't.

lkeigwin · March 28, 2013 2:51AM

I don't think I've ever asked a seller for a partial refund, regardless of the reason. I think it should be up to the dealer to offer it, if that's how he'd like to proceed.

So my answer is #2. I'd explain about the variety screw-up and let him know I'd like to return it. But I'd also find a tactful, indirect way of letting him know that price is the issue. If he wants to work with me I'm game.

At shows I always have Internet access. It would have been easy to bring up coinzip.proboards.com to check the variety.
Lance.

CharlotteDude · March 28, 2013 3:14AM

I agree...something seems amiss. I would think an R7 Bust Half variety would command a far greater premium over your average Bust Half of the same date/grade than $500-$1000.

As I mentioned in my OP... I was using a hypothetical situation. The coin wasn't actually a bust half. It's a coin, for which even common varieties command prices in the high four figures/low five figures. There isn't much of a "variety collectors" base for the series (mainly because of their prohibitive cost), so the price between an R4 and an R7 isn't really that much... perhaps a $1000 - $2000 at most.

'dude

lava · March 28, 2013 3:27AM

I think you've made the hypothetical unnecessarily complicated by omitting whether you like and want the coin as an R4. We get you are disgruntled with the price, but do you want the coin. That should dictate your course of action.

CharlotteDude · March 28, 2013 3:27AM

At shows I always have Internet access. It would have been easy to bring up coinzip.proboards.com to check the variety.

That's all good, if you feel like lugging a laptop around with you at a coin show

. The dealer was a specialist in the field and is known as an authority on the series. The expert he consulted with regarding the coin's variety actually wrote one of the most authoritative books on the series. Having dealt with him over many years, the collector didn't think it necessary to seek further verification on the variety at the time.

'dude

mrpotatoheadd · March 28, 2013 4:00AM

<< <i>That's all good, if you feel like lugging a laptop around with you at a coin show

. The dealer was a specialist in the field and is known as an authority on the series. The expert he consulted with regarding the coin's variety actually wrote one of the most authoritative books on the series. Having dealt with him over many years, the collector didn't think it necessary to seek further verification on the variety at the time. >>

If the dealer and expert had made an error, listed the variety as more common than it actually was and priced it lower due to the error, would you be considering going back to pay the difference?

MrHalfDime · March 28, 2013 4:13AM

This entire "hypothetical" scenario makes no sense to me at all, even bordering on the ridiculous. I must agree with Mozin on this. For anyone even remotely knowledgeable of the Bust half dollar series, that collector would have an understanding of what the designation "R7" really means (a mere 4-12 specimens known!!), and what a truly significant (translation: valuable) coin that would be. Regardless of whether or not it actually turned out to be an R7, any collector of the Draped Bust half dollars would go completely weak in the knees and have to be resuscitated at the mere mention of an R7. In addition, and perhaps most important, the difference in price between an R4 and an R7, for any Draped Bust half dollar, in any grade, would be far more than the suggested $500 - $1000. This would be especially true for a coin in the grade the OP mentioned of "... something from the early 1800's (pre 1807) where any variety of the date over the lower-mid mint state range (ie, MS-63) is very far and few between." An R7 Draped Bust half dollar!! In MS-63!! And the only premium over the generic date was just $500 - $1000??!!. How does the OP feel about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny? The OP may well be deserving of a partial refund for the premium paid, for a coin that was apparently misrepresented, at least in terms of rarity. But anyone buying Draped Bust half dollars, in MS-63 grades, has a responsibility to be at least a little knowledgeable on the series, the inherent rarities, and the relative values of those rarities. This 'deal' should have smelled so bad to any knowledgeable Draped Bust half collector that it should have sent him running in the opposite direction.

"If the dealer and expert had made an error, listed the variety as more common than it actually was and priced it lower due to the error, would you be considering going back to pay the difference?"

Excellent!! POTD

CharlotteDude · March 28, 2013 4:28AM

If the dealer and expert had made an error, listed the variety as more common than it actually was and priced it lower due to the error, would you be considering going back to pay the difference?

If it was a dealer that I'd had a longstanding buy/sell relationship with, I would certainly advise him and let him decide on what would be the best course to take.

So now I pose the question to you... What would "YOU" do?

'dude

CharlotteDude · March 28, 2013 4:32AM

This entire "hypothetical" scenario makes no sense to me at all, even bordering on the ridiculous. I must agree with Mozin on this. For anyone even remotely knowledgeable of the Bust half dollar series, that collector would have an understanding of what the designation "R7" really means (a mere 4-12 specimens known!!), and what a truly significant (translation: valuable) coin that would be. Regardless of whether or not it actually turned out to be an R7, any collector of the Draped Bust half dollars would go completely weak in the knees and have to be resuscitated at the mere mention of an R7. In addition, and perhaps most important, the difference in price between an R4 and an R7, for any Draped Bust half dollar, in any grade, would be far more than the suggested $500 - $1000. This would be especially true for a coin in the grade the OP mentioned of "... something from the early 1800's (pre 1807) where any variety of the date over the lower-mid mint state range (ie, MS-63) is very far and few between." An R7 Draped Bust half dollar!! In MS-63!! And the only premium over the generic date was just $500 - $1000??!!. How does the OP feel about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny? The OP may well be deserving of a partial refund for the premium paid, for a coin that was apparently misrepresented, at least in terms of rarity. But anyone buying Draped Bust half dollars, in MS-63 grades, has a responsibility to be at least a little knowledgeable on the series, the inherent rarities, and the relative values of those rarities. This 'deal' should have smelled so bad to any knowledgeable Draped Bust half collector that it should have sent him running in the opposite direction.

You're reading entirely too much into this... as I mentioned a couple responses up, this is a hypothetical situation. The coin's not really a bust half dollar, so try not to rationalize the pricing difference between an R-4 & R-7 variety, and try keeping the snarky Santa Claus & Easter Bunny comments to yourself. A Bust Half Dollar was used simply as an example.

Boosibri · March 28, 2013 4:52AM

<< <i>You're reading entirely too much into this... as I mentioned a couple responses up, this is a hypothetical situation. The coin's not really a bust half dollar, so try not to rationalize the pricing difference between an R-4 & R-7 variety, and try keeping the snarky Santa Claus & Easter Bunny comments to yourself. A Bust Half Dollar was used simply as an example. >>

Pretty inappropriate comments MrHalfDime. Help the OP with an opinion or offer a perspective.

Unknown · March 28, 2013 5:27AM

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mrpotatoheadd · March 28, 2013 5:34AM

<< <i>So now I pose the question to you... What would "YOU" do? >>

I've run into coins not properly identified a couple of times that I remember and I've told the sellers about the errors.

Getting back to the hypothetical- using the "collector" "dealer" and "expert" labels for the players introduces (IMO) the opportunity for prejudices to come into play. If the issue is being able to properly identify a certain variety and all three participants can do so, then all are on equal footing. Too many posters here (again, IMO) like to play the "collector" card (you know- "Dealers are experts/professionals and I'm just a lil' ol' collector who don't know nuthin") when it suits them even thought they're more than willing to ridicule dealers for not being as informed on some particular topic as they are on other occasions.

Unknown · March 28, 2013 5:56AM

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Nysoto · March 28, 2013 7:23AM

#2 If the buyer does not want the coin, a full refund should be given, as the coin was sold as a rarity, which it was not. Misattribution happens fairly frequently by dealers and auction firms.

edit - TPG's also make attribution errors

MikeInFL · March 28, 2013 7:40AM

I would call the dealer, explain the situation, and see how he reacted. I would then decide my next step based on that reaction. I would not go into the conversation with expectations, for that's a sure way to end up dissatisfied.

ColonelJessup · March 28, 2013 8:10AM

Everything on the invoice (VAM, R number, Overton, whatever), and a guaranteed return if a screw-up occurs. Pops can't be checked at shows. Where's the *Thumbs Down** icon when you need one?

His "expert says" means "I don't know for sure".

Dealer - "You don't trust me to make this right if....?"

You "Sure, but my wife doesn't know you, and she'll kill me if ever chance letting this happen.... again"

Any ethical dealer, ego or not, should be willing to give you a buyback in this situation. The "wife" is just a "He wants to guilt you, go over the top on him". D)

If you have to work harder than that for the guarantee, just walk away.

Opinions Please - Hypothetical Situation - R7 versus R4

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