My First Unhappy eBay Buyer-Buffalo Experts Needed!!! Update

spy88 · March 19, 2013 8:36AM

Had this Buffalo sell exactly one month ago.
Buyer just today said he visited a local dealer who informed him it was a FAKE!! He has already opened a case with eBay Resolution Center even before I could respond to his request for money back. This Buffalo is one of two I purchased online a long time ago as raw coins and paid $4000 for both. (I know, I know, I paid way too much) but this other coin sold the same time frame as this one and they have had no problem with theirs.

Please to all Buffalo experts---I know the picture ain't the greatest but give your valued opinions as to the authenticity of this coin based on what you can see.

I have called him by phone---he wasn't home so left a message suggesting he get at least one other dealer (preferably two) appraisal for this coin before furthering his case.

Thanks ahead of time for all responses.
David

Knowing that the easiest thing to do is to refund this guy his money, I've agreed to do so. eBay says he must first send back the coin so I can verify it is the same one I sold, and then pay him his money. Gonna be a rough month for me but I think by submitting it to Teletrades offer of slabbing/selling will be the best for both of us. Probably come out way ahead if I can hold out til it sells!

I forgot to ask those of you that posted, what do you think the grade might be based on the pics?

BAJJERFAN · March 19, 2013 8:43AM

For the price it sold for, it should have been professionally graded.

ModCrewman · March 19, 2013 8:44AM

I am not an expert...but it appears that "the buffalo is pissing...and the leg is missing." I also believe the porousity of the rear leg is a pick up point of an authentic piece. If fake, it's a good one IMHO.

Kove · March 19, 2013 8:45AM

All the diagnostics are there, so it's a genuine 3-leg buffalo. Just tell the buyer he'll get his refund as soon as you get your coin back in the same condition you sent it. Then get it slabbed.

commoncents05 · March 19, 2013 8:46AM

The coin is undoubtedly genuine.

-Paul

mrpaseo · March 19, 2013 8:47AM

<< For the price it sold for, it should have been professionally graded. >>

Agreed, I'm not an expert so I can not comment on if it is real or not. If things do not turn out good, there is a lesson to be learned.

Ray

lkeigwin · March 19, 2013 8:48AM

Ask him submit it to a reliable TPG and offer to pay the fees if it comes back fake.

Looks authentic to me. I'm no expert but I compared it to one I used to own and it looks pretty solid.
Lance.

slothman2000 · March 19, 2013 8:48AM

Pretty good break down of the diagnostic here

1937-d 3 legged diagnostics

braddick · March 19, 2013 8:51AM

[q]Ask him submit it to a reliable TPG and offer to pay the fees if it comes back fake.

Looks authentic to me. I'm no expert but I compared it to one I used to own and it looks pretty solid.
Lance. >>

The problem with that is when the coin comes back 'cleaned' or some other not-gradeable criteria you're now just opening yourself up for more pain.
Have him return and refund him.

mrpaseo · March 19, 2013 8:54AM

Just did a little comparison (On Google), I agree, it looks real. Get it back, give a refund and get that puppy graded.

Ray

Justlooking · March 19, 2013 9:02AM

Looks absolutely real, obverse and reverse.

AUandAG · March 19, 2013 9:04AM

It's real, send him to this thread.

bob

buffnut · March 19, 2013 9:05AM

[My opinion]
Yup- it's the real deal. Either the dealer he took it to is not very knowledgeable, or he is trying to pull something.
[/My opinion]

OnWithTheHunt · March 19, 2013 9:08AM

Looks good on my iPhone and if it hasn't been cleaned or has no other problems, I think it went cheap

spy88 · March 19, 2013 9:14AM

Gentlemen, thank you one and all for your keen observations.

The reason why it wasn't submitted for slabbing in the first place is I found myself in need of quick cash and these two Buffs were of the highest value coins I had. If I had had the time/money in the first place, I most certainly would have done so. Also the reason I cannot refund his money. It was required and spent before it was sold, if you know what I mean and I am still in no way financially able to do so.

Also, in a effort to bolster my case, I will be referring to this OP and all of your responses as 'experts' should eBay or the buyer request any confirmation I have to prove one 'dealer' doesn't constitute the truth. I hope none of you will have a problem with this. If so, please delete your response(s) and I will understand. I have to call him back tonight after 9P.M. EST (midnight for me) to talk to him in person about this.

Thank you all again.
David

mrpotatoheadd · March 19, 2013 9:19AM

<< For the price it sold for, it should have been professionally graded. >>

I had a three legger that was professionally graded returned as a fake a couple of years ago. FWIW...

spy88 · March 19, 2013 10:50AM

Knowing that the easiest thing to do is to refund this guy his money, I've agreed to do so. eBay says he must first send back the coin so I can verify it is the same one I sold, and then pay him his money. Gonna be a rough month for me but I think by submitting it to Teletrades offer of slabbing/selling will be the best for both of us. Probably come out way ahead if I can hold out til it sells!

I forgot to ask those of you that posted, what do you think the grade might go based on the pics?

BlackDiamond · March 19, 2013 11:08AM

Based on the photos shown, I would agree with the other posters that say this 3-legger is legit. My guess on the grade AU55.

hchcoin · March 19, 2013 11:11AM

<< Pretty good break down of the diagnostic here

1937-d 3 legged diagnostics >>

Thank you. That was very informative.

7over8 · March 19, 2013 11:16AM

Clearly genuine. "Moth eaten" neck, reverse die markers are there too. Genuine.

19Lyds · March 19, 2013 11:45AM

Hmmm. Since all the die markers are there and since it's been better than a month, my bet is buyers remorse with some made up story but then, there's really nothing you can do.

As for the grade, I'd wager between VF35 and XF45

Personally and judging from the photo's, I think the buyer got a very nice price.

lcoopie · March 19, 2013 12:24PM

looks real to me
compared to coinfacts

link

segoja · March 19, 2013 12:46PM

looks real and XF

He got a great deal, so have him return it and sell it elsewhere. You'll be glad you did.

You should try to see who the dealer was. He may never have taken it anywhere, or it could have been a vest pocket dealer that doesn't know much

good luck!!!

Wabbit2313 · March 19, 2013 1:10PM

You did have a bidder right below him at $675.00. You can always do a second chance offer.

pennyannie · March 19, 2013 1:15PM

I am with the real crowd, to bad some so called expert called it a fake. I hope you get the same coin back.

MFH · March 19, 2013 1:25PM

Its the real deal - too bad the "expert" wasn't.

BAJJERFAN · March 19, 2013 2:00PM

<< 

<< For the price it sold for, it should have been professionally graded. >>

I had a three legger that was professionally graded returned as a fake a couple of years ago. FWIW... >>

Poop happens. Nuttin is guaranteed.

Shamika · March 19, 2013 2:02PM

The coin is a 100% genuine 3 legger in very respectable condition.

rec78 · March 19, 2013 5:25PM

Maybe the dealer he took it too just didn't want it, or was trying to buy it cheap by saying it was fake..Did the dealer say it definatly was a fake or he suspected it may be fake?... Opinion is opinion. Yes, try to find out who the dealer is that said it is fake...It could be one of those hotel buyer guys or even a newbie dealer(yes there always are some of those) posing as a real dealer and not wanting to take a chance on it because they don't know a real one from a fake one.

Bob

PerryHall · March 19, 2013 5:31PM

<< looks real to me
compared to coinfacts

link >>

I would send the buyer this link and tell him if he still doesn't want it to just send it back for a full refund. If you get it back, get it slabbed before you sell it again. The slabbing fees will be well worth it. This coin is heavily altered and most serious buyers won't look at the raw ones on eBay.

Cougar1978 · March 19, 2013 9:23PM

A coin this expensive should be TPG graded. The fact it isn't should send a red flag.

Your only recourse seems to take it back and then get it graded. Then if it is ok and problem free try and sell it again. Who knows, you might get more money for it. I would not worry about what the other dealer said, I would find out for myself by sending it in to PCGS.

spy88 · March 19, 2013 9:56PM

Again, I thank you all for your highly regarded opinions. I've already decided to refund him. When I get it back, the coin will go to Teletrade along with 19 FS Jeffs for them to slab (by NGC I think) and auction off. This is really a much cheaper way for me as the slabbing fee per coin is $9 plus $2 more for Teletrade. These fees will be taken from the prices realized after all coins either sell or not. Some of the Jeffs may be marginal for the FS designation thus lowering their value considerably.

As far as this so called 'dealer' he took it to, I told him that no respectable dealer would blatantly make the statement that it is a fake, that most dealers know a lot about everything, but specifics on one error coin, maybe not so much. Didn't question him further about it other then to point out that said dealer may have had ulterior motives. Had he said ...may be fake, might be fake, or

<< Take it to another dealer and see what he thinks >>

would have been a honest dealers response to "How much is it worth?" that the buyer said he asked the dealer before being told he had bought a fake.

I also told the buyer about this thread and gave him a link to it. Even if he tries to change his mind, the refund process is already in the works with PP and eBay. His opening up a case against me with eBay has forced me to resolve the issue by the most expedient method possible. Get the coin back and pay him his money.

Again, I really really appreciate all of your responses, suggestions and grade estimates!
David

ricko · March 20, 2013 12:11AM

Authentic, XF45.....get it slabbed....Cheers, RickO

Jcarney · March 20, 2013 1:24AM

<< As far as this so called 'dealer' he took it to, I told him that no respectable dealer would blatantly make the statement that it is a fake, that most dealers know a lot about everything, but specifics on one error coin, maybe not so much. >>

I would think (hope) that most dealers would be able to authenticate a 3-legged Buffalo. It's one of the most famous varieties in U.S. coin collecting.

mr1931S · March 20, 2013 1:38AM

genuine

This buyer just wants out of the transaction.I would give him his money back after making sure the same coin comes back to me as was sent out.

You might consider blocking him from participation in future auctions for not being forthright with you.

The coin is genuine.If he doesn't know what he's looking at and can't afford an item like this,he's got no business wasting your time and money on the-seller-unfriendly-venue we know as ebay.

That's my opinion for FWIW.

derryb · March 20, 2013 1:42AM

sounds like the buyer of the OP's coin likes to "borrow" coins for resale. If they don't resell he claims he didn't authorize their purchase.

crazyhounddog · March 20, 2013 1:47AM

It's real....

spy88 · March 20, 2013 2:07AM

Just talked to the buyer this morning. He will be sending it back to me today.

<< I would think (hope) that most dealers would be able to authenticate a 3-legged Buffalo. It's one of the most famous varieties in U.S. coin collecting. >>

Yes, you would think (hope) this but you never know. He obviously saw something he didn't like with the coin. The buyer did say that the dealer did not want the coin after declaring it a fake so rules out (to me) that he was trying to buy for himself.

TwoSides2aCoin · March 20, 2013 2:18AM

Buy it back. I'll take it.

koynekwest · March 20, 2013 5:57AM

All the distictive die markers are there. A genuine 3 legged coin.

gyocomgd · March 20, 2013 7:35AM

<< looks real and XF

He got a great deal, so have him return it and sell it elsewhere. You'll be glad you did. >>

This is the best bottom-line answer in this thread. You should bend over backward to get that piece back.

davewesen · March 20, 2013 7:52AM

I have some ideas that are quite contrary to previously expressed in this thread

Are those PVC blebs on the reverse?
I see one below U of UNITED, above O in OF, and just above tip of Buffalo nose.

Die markers match?
That just tells me it is not an altered authentic 1937-D, but not that it is NOT a die struck copy made from dies made from authentic coin.

The obverse gives me some questions
1- Why are there round blebs in the fields around the letters L, B, T in LIBERTY
2- Why are there so many blebs (die chunks missing) on the neck of the indian?
3- Why do the rims look new on an XF detailed coin?
4- Is it just lighting, or is there not much wear on that XF coin?
Even though the lighting and pictures make it difficult, there is nothing that tells me this is not a well made die struck copy.

Need cash now?
Teletrade has a nice service, but chances of getting money within 3 months is slim - you mail to them, they deliver to grading company, grading company grades, deliver back to Teletrade, TT inventorys and lists in auction, auction runs, a couple weeks later they settle.

I have PCGS coins in the auction this week that I mailed to Teletrade on 11/23/12, and do not expect seeing any money for another 3 weeks.
(4 1/2 months-> but holidays, PCGS backlog, Teletrade change to new format)

I would recommend selling raw to any of the brave soles in this thread saying "no doubt genuine, all die markers present" or call around town to find an authorized PCGS dealer to take a look at it. Your eBay sale says you are near Las Vegas and there are a PCGS dealers from there, and many probably have a shop that will buy your raw coin for a fair price if it is genuine.

mr1931S · March 20, 2013 8:05AM

Dealer probably doesn't need it for inventory (doesn't have an eager buyer) so calling the piece a fake is an easy out for him even though he may know better.

Yes,an expensive coin like '37 leg buffalo probably should be authenticated and encapsulated before offering it on ebay given the big cut of the sale that ebay wants.

Seller is protecting himself from swaps and damage the buyer could do to a raw coin.I think with any coin worth over $300,one should seriously consider getting it TPG slabbed before trying to sell on ebay.

I once sold a very nice,properly represented raw Lincoln cent key to a buyer on ebay who upgraded it and offered it for sale there before I could even get it in the mail to him.There was no feedback left for me and none was given.He did pay promptly but I still had a bad taste in my mouth over the deal.That buyer got blocked and is still blocked to this day.

Key dates,scarce or rare varieties,any coin worth more than $300,get it slabbed. By doing so you are saying a big loud NO! to the ebay cheeseballs.

Unknown · March 20, 2013 8:07AM

This content has been removed.

gyocomgd · March 20, 2013 8:10AM

<< 
That just tells me it is not an altered authentic 1937-D, but not that it is NOT a die struck copy made from dies made from authentic coin. >>

Dave, in sifting through your great post, I'm stumbling on this. I'm a poor reader--could you reword?

410a · March 20, 2013 8:22AM

Nice coin. Get it graded and make some real money for yourself.
Previous posting correct, the guy just wants out. Regards< Mike

airplanenut · March 20, 2013 8:38AM

<< 

<< 
That just tells me it is not an altered authentic 1937-D, but not that it is NOT a die struck copy made from dies made from authentic coin. >>

Dave, in sifting through your great post, I'm stumbling on this. I'm a poor reader--could you reword? >>

He's saying that because the die markers of a genuine 3-legger exist, the coin is not an altered regular 37-D (ie, a 37-D with part of the leg removed outside the mint). His thought is that, because the die markers of a genuine coin exist, the piece could be struck from fake dies created with a genuine 3-legger. Doing this would transfer the characteristics of a genuine coin, but the resulting piece would be fake.

davewesen · March 20, 2013 8:52AM

<< 

<< 
That just tells me it is not an altered authentic 1937-D, but not that it is NOT a die struck copy made from dies made from authentic coin. >>

Dave, in sifting through your great post, I'm stumbling on this. I'm a poor reader--could you reword? >>

Die markers easily detect poorly made fakes or altered authentics, they do not detect counterfeits made from well made dies made from authentic coins that they are copying.

If you start with a 1937-D and tool away the leg, easy pick-up. If you start with a generic die and change dates/mintmarks so you can make many copies, easy pick-up. If you start with an authentic 1937-D 3 legger in XF condition, and make a good die, it is much more difficult to detect for the average collector - especially from 2 dimensional pics with lots of lighting. ( I realize you and a few others in this thread are advanced Buffalo specialists)

Thousands (millions?) of gold coin die struck copies have been made that will fool 95%+ of collectors.... is it such a stretch to think key dates have not been made?

TwoSides2aCoin · March 20, 2013 9:09AM

A collector wanted $750 for this. I declined. He said he would take it to other dealers.
I told him he would be attempting to pass a spurious coin if he tried.
A guy has to tell the truth as he sees it. I could be wrong, but he swore it was genuine.

segoja · March 20, 2013 9:48AM

It is genuine, just not a genuine 3 legged

mr1931S · March 20, 2013 4:40PM

Well,all that remains is to get the piece checked by PCGS.

If I'm wrong....Can I have some horsey sauce with my crow?

My First Unhappy eBay Buyer-Buffalo Experts Needed!!! Update

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