RealOne: <<What did it sell last go around and when was that?>>
TDN: <<2006 for $1,150,000 >>
If you guys read my articles, then you would know that Heritage auctioned it in April 2006 for $1,322,500. It will be interesting to see how the Knoxville-Cardinal piece fares in two weeks.
<< <i>RealOne: <<What did it sell last go around and when was that?>>
TDN: <<2006 for $1,150,000 >>
If you guys read my articles, then you would know that Heritage auctioned it in April 2006 for $1,322,500. It will be interesting to see how the Knoxville-Cardinal piece fares in two weeks.
<< <i>RealOne: <<What did it sell last go around and when was that?>>
TDN: <<2006 for $1,150,000 >>
If you guys read my articles, then you would know that Heritage auctioned it in April 2006 for $1,322,500. It will be interesting to see how the Knoxville-Cardinal piece fares in two weeks.
Ten days to go and the Cardinal coin is at $80k hammer. I tried to bid $450k myself over the weekend as a placeholder bid but I exceeded my credit limit of $15k.
<< <i>any up to date predictions after seeing what the PCGS example sold for?? >>
Cardinal paid $1.5M .... I still think he makes a profit. I have a whole dollar riding on it! >>
Which dollar are you betting?
Personally, I'd rather lose $100 to a stanger than a dollar to a friend. Those $1 bets carry a lot of baggage for the loser, especially when Stewart Blay is the winner.
<< <i>any up to date predictions after seeing what the PCGS example sold for?? >>
Cardinal paid $1.5M .... I still think he makes a profit. I have a whole dollar riding on it! >>
Which dollar are you betting?
Personally, I'd rather lose $100 to a stanger than a dollar to a friend. Those $1 bets carry a lot of baggage for the loser, especially when Stewart Blay is the winner. >>
All I have to do is win one out of two and I can avoid that scenario.
Of the two, the Cardinal coin (on the left) is the earlier die state coin. It shows some hair curls that didn't get fully defined as well as the eagle's breast, at least compared to the Starr coin. I don't view this as a strike issue, but a die with devices that are too deep. The Starr coin (on the right) is later die state with polished dies. The die roughness by the "Half Disme" is missing on the Starr coin and more letters are polished into the field. The hair and eagle's breast show much more detail. Did this die polishing do anything to alter the hair and eagle detail characteristics?
Of the two, the Cardinal coin (on the left) is the earlier die state coin. It shows some hair curls that didn't get fully defined as well as the eagle's breast, at least compared to the Starr coin. I don't view this as a strike issue, but a die with devices that are too deep. The Starr coin (on the right) is later die state with polished dies. The die roughness by the "Half Disme" is missing on the Starr coin and more letters are polished into the field. The hair and eagle's breast show much more detail. Did this die polishing do anything to alter the hair and eagle detail characteristics? >>
EagleEye, you most certainly have eagle eyes in recognizing fine details! I didn't want to be the one to bring this up, but since you have pointed it out, I will comment further.
As you commented, in the earlier state of the dies, the recesses for the devices were too deep to fill adequately to provide a full strike. The later die polishing/lapping removed metal from the flat surfaces of the dies, thus making the recesses more shallow. In essence, the earlier strikes were stuck in higher relief than the later strikes, much like comparing the 1921 Peace dollars to the 1922 Peace dollars. The newly polished dies also produced reflective surfaces on the Starr coin, much like on a PL morgan dollar, and consequently, the die polish lines are readily seen upon inspection.
Yes, the Starr coin shows more pinpoint strike detail in the very highest hair curls and in the feathers on the eagle's breast. However, even though those fine details are more sharply struck, those central devices are actually in lower relief than those on the Rittenhouse-Cardinal coin. As a consequence of the die lapping and resulting lessening of the relief of the dies, the Starr coin displays a loss of detail in the lowest relief areas. So, for example, in the outermost portions of the legend on the obverse, you will see that the tops of the letters D, S, T, and R are broken, whereas on the Cardinal coin those letters are complete. Similarly, there are internal gaps within the eagle's wing feathers on the Starr coin, where the details were polished away and you see polished field areas, versus the raised wing detail of the Cardinal coin. Perhaps the most definitive of these effects, though, is when you look at the dentils to the left and above the O in OF on the reverse, you will see much more noticeable gaps between them on the Starr coin than on the Cardinal coin. The dentils on the Cardinal coin are simply larger in their pre-lapped state, and so they appear closer together.
I will echo what others have said, both specimens are extraordinary coins, rich with history, and certainly the very finest known of their respective die states.
I've owned more than a dozen of these, many of them circs during the 80's. A funky 64 (then) and a wholesome 63, an very powerfully struck MS61, the Jung AU58, couple of XFs..... I've seen most every one that came up for auction in the last 30+ years. And quite a few on the bourse floor.
Cardinal's is unequivocally the most gorgeous half disme I've ever seen. After looking at it again this morning I pondered..... zzzzzz zzzzzz
Neither the pinpoint tick I saw on the bust nor the areas of diminished lustre on the high points change that. Other superb pieces as Analyst refers to might have surfaces which some evaluate differently. Put it next to any other half disme, even the other superb ones, and it will stand out on a most visceral level.
The photo really accentuates the intensity of the colors. The same accentuates the color change on the high points. They look whitish in the photos when they are actually covered with fully intact toning. The distraction is minimal, whereas the photo represents the effect as something as quite more jarring. Can't say that my surmise is based on phenomena not explainable in other ways, but it appears like the coin got a bit of cabinet friction and then toned some more. Areas with diminished mint frost have an underlying texture that produces reflectivity with a noticeably different effect.
Whatever die state comparison or analysis might be made with the Starr coin, I concur with the differentiation between apples and oranges, no matter what minor details on Cardinal might be stronger than on Starr. Rim and lettering count for little relative to the all-defining central motif.
The Starr photo represents the toning to be more intense (almost orangeish, even more worse on the reverse) than it is in hand. It's actually pretty light in with some thicker patches that the powerful reflectivity of the proof-like fields backlights from every angle, so it's not cloudy, but there is nothing of iridescence or attractive progressions. The most you can say for the toning is that it's not obtrusive. Certainly not dark. However it's hard to imagine that toning pattern taking a century or two to develop. It wouldn't surprise me if it was acid-dipped within the last 50-75 years and toned back. The prooflike fields are certainly unlike anything else I've seen on a half disme.
The strike is what makes this coin truly special. On Ms. Liberty herself there is a depth of detail two levels stronger than that of Cardinal, Pittman. Hayes, or anything else I've seen. Not just much better than Cardinal, but beyond anything you'd imagine the obverse die could conceivably produce. Its exquisitely intricate detail throughout the entire obverse device is not even suggested as being within the mint's capabilities by any other. Certainly more detail than any specimen Large Cent, or even the Hayes 1795 Draped Bust S$1. I'm trying to remember the 1792 Specimen Copper Disme.
While this statement is gross hyperbole, the lady on the Starr coin looks like a Gallery Mint product next to these others.
I'd note the choking chicken on the Starr coin is sharper than anything one might expect, but not monster++ . The obverse is sui generis. I'd love to see another like it. My dream coin is the best of the three surviving 1792 Silver Dismes. Unseen for 50+ years and considered choice. I expect it is a specimen too.
I'm stunned at how little the Starr coin brought. I got it second-hand that a very shrewd Forum member bought it, I'd guess for a client.
I don't know whether the SP67 sets a ceiling for Cardinal's. Apples and oranges. No brainer.
In many ways my knowledge is superficial in contrast to Martin's or Greg's. I'd love to have Karl M. show up
Somehow this conundrum about value resonates with elements of a bet Fred Weinberg made with Don Kagin about an Ultra-High MCMVII and a 1927-D.
Collectors of classic series are more interested in business strikes than proofs. More field trips, more research, adventure, treasure hunt, more fun, more cameraderie. Less expectation of possible perfection, and a much broader range of grades, strikes, die states, planchet quality, etc, etc. Proofs are somewhat rare and much more expensive. Some collectors throughout all of American numismatic history have bought proofs because they are completeable in consistently high quality after 1838.
Collectors who've been hungering for this classic seminal ne plus ultra for decades never envisioned anything like Cardinal. It's the historicity, the karma juice and actual DNA of our fore-fathers, the miracle of survival (in any grade). A 64 is almost beyond conception. Subject of study, object of veneration, lifelong goal realized more fully than ever imagined, part of an investment fund interested in a Rembrandt if you've got one. Who knows? Cardinal has a prize at the top of a very special mountain.
Oranges and apples.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>I'll take the over on the SP67 at $1.8M. On the other hand, it's small.
Both are OMG+, cooler than the SP66 S$1 in terms of historicity, and with Washington's and Jefferson's karma juice and DNA all over them.
Makes me nostalgic for the late 80's, when this stuff was everywhere occasionally. >>
Yea, I remember Tom Reynolds had one, and since he was a copper guy he didn't really know what to do with it. It was a PCGS VF-20 as I recall, and I think he wanted $9 grand for it. Since I had a VF-30 I was out, but that piece would have been a nice investment.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>So now the coin is in a PCGS MS68 holder, what type of value is specifically added to the coin? >>
The most prestigious TPG has validated the grade. Clearly value has been added, at least in the minds of a significant segment of buyers. And value is largely a function of collective market psychology.
<< <i>Wonders never cease. PCGS MS68! Imagine what it would grade if it were fully struck
Whatever the holder says, it's a Moose >>
And imagine what it would grade without all those high point toning/luster breaks. If the coin were PCGS MS68 prior to the auction, my wallet would be $1 lighter.....it's simpler and far easier to bet $1 on the Orange Futures market than to figure out which coins will cross or won't cross. The coin would have to earn a sticker to finalize the market grade of 68. And the other coin would need to sticker at 67 as well. Still, it's specimen/full strike vs. monster color/higher grade....apples vs. oranges. You gotta love this market.
Thanks for posting those side by side. Have always felt the diagonal markings which look like adjustment marks on the Starr detracted. The toning on the Cardinal is to die for. (Pun intended)
Comments
RealOne: <<What did it sell last go around and when was that?>>
TDN: <<2006 for $1,150,000 >>
If you guys read my articles, then you would know that Heritage auctioned it in April 2006 for $1,322,500. It will be interesting to see how the Knoxville-Cardinal piece fares in two weeks.
1792 Half Dismes, Part 2: Amazing Pieces to be Auctioned
1792 Half Dismes, Part 1: Origins and Meaning
roadrunner and I have a $1 bet on that.
The Starr SP67 coin's streaky toning (alloying ? ) puts me in mind of hay-marked British milled coins from the Wm III period; i.e. not attractive.
<< <i>RealOne: <<What did it sell last go around and when was that?>>
TDN: <<2006 for $1,150,000 >>
If you guys read my articles, then you would know that Heritage auctioned it in April 2006 for $1,322,500. It will be interesting to see how the Knoxville-Cardinal piece fares in two weeks.
1792 Half Dismes, Part 2: Amazing Pieces to be Auctioned
1792 Half Dismes, Part 1: Origins and Meaning >>
Wow. $1,410,000 is $1.2 hammer so a loss of $122,5? Beginning of the bottom starting to fall out of the high end or is something else going on?
Edit for mathing...
<< <i>
<< <i>RealOne: <<What did it sell last go around and when was that?>>
TDN: <<2006 for $1,150,000 >>
If you guys read my articles, then you would know that Heritage auctioned it in April 2006 for $1,322,500. It will be interesting to see how the Knoxville-Cardinal piece fares in two weeks.
1792 Half Dismes, Part 2: Amazing Pieces to be Auctioned
1792 Half Dismes, Part 1: Origins and Meaning >>
Wow. $1,410,000 is $1.2 hammer so a loss of $122,5? Beginning of the bottom starting to fall out of the high end or is something else going on?
Edit for mathing... >>
I would guess that the consignor received 10% of hammer of the buyer's fee - so he lost $2,500 if so.
<< <i>I would MUCH rather have the MS-64 than the SP67, which are both in the Heritage Sale.
I wasn't overly impressed with the SP67 that I wanted to be. There was absolutely nothing "special" about it in comparison to a regular MS piece. >>
I totally disagree with you on this, but I guess it doesn't matter since neither of us bought either of them.
Coin Rarities Online
But I guess you could get used to it.
<< <i>TDN, I'm pretty sure that would look funny in either of your dollar sets.
But I guess you could get used to it. >>
Yes but, that 1/2 disme is GIGANTIC compared to all those trimes Laura just bought.
<< <i>any up to date predictions after seeing what the PCGS example sold for?? >>
Cardinal paid $1.5M .... I still think he makes a profit. I have a whole dollar riding on it!
<< <i>
<< <i>any up to date predictions after seeing what the PCGS example sold for?? >>
Cardinal paid $1.5M .... I still think he makes a profit. I have a whole dollar riding on it! >>
Which dollar are you betting?
Personally, I'd rather lose $100 to a stanger than a dollar to a friend. Those $1 bets carry a lot of baggage for the loser, especially when Stewart Blay is the winner.
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>any up to date predictions after seeing what the PCGS example sold for?? >>
Cardinal paid $1.5M .... I still think he makes a profit. I have a whole dollar riding on it! >>
Which dollar are you betting?
Personally, I'd rather lose $100 to a stanger than a dollar to a friend. Those $1 bets carry a lot of baggage for the loser, especially when Stewart Blay is the winner. >>
All I have to do is win one out of two and I can avoid that scenario.
These are stunning coins.
Of the two, the Cardinal coin (on the left) is the earlier die state coin. It shows some hair curls that didn't get fully defined as well as the eagle's breast, at least compared to the Starr coin. I don't view this as a strike issue, but a die with devices that are too deep. The Starr coin (on the right) is later die state with polished dies. The die roughness by the "Half Disme" is missing on the Starr coin and more letters are polished into the field. The hair and eagle's breast show much more detail. Did this die polishing do anything to alter the hair and eagle detail characteristics?
<< <i>[These are stunning coins.
Of the two, the Cardinal coin (on the left) is the earlier die state coin. It shows some hair curls that didn't get fully defined as well as the eagle's breast, at least compared to the Starr coin. I don't view this as a strike issue, but a die with devices that are too deep. The Starr coin (on the right) is later die state with polished dies. The die roughness by the "Half Disme" is missing on the Starr coin and more letters are polished into the field. The hair and eagle's breast show much more detail. Did this die polishing do anything to alter the hair and eagle detail characteristics? >>
EagleEye, you most certainly have eagle eyes in recognizing fine details! I didn't want to be the one to bring this up, but since you have pointed it out, I will comment further.
As you commented, in the earlier state of the dies, the recesses for the devices were too deep to fill adequately to provide a full strike. The later die polishing/lapping removed metal from the flat surfaces of the dies, thus making the recesses more shallow. In essence, the earlier strikes were stuck in higher relief than the later strikes, much like comparing the 1921 Peace dollars to the 1922 Peace dollars. The newly polished dies also produced reflective surfaces on the Starr coin, much like on a PL morgan dollar, and consequently, the die polish lines are readily seen upon inspection.
Yes, the Starr coin shows more pinpoint strike detail in the very highest hair curls and in the feathers on the eagle's breast. However, even though those fine details are more sharply struck, those central devices are actually in lower relief than those on the Rittenhouse-Cardinal coin. As a consequence of the die lapping and resulting lessening of the relief of the dies, the Starr coin displays a loss of detail in the lowest relief areas. So, for example, in the outermost portions of the legend on the obverse, you will see that the tops of the letters D, S, T, and R are broken, whereas on the Cardinal coin those letters are complete. Similarly, there are internal gaps within the eagle's wing feathers on the Starr coin, where the details were polished away and you see polished field areas, versus the raised wing detail of the Cardinal coin. Perhaps the most definitive of these effects, though, is when you look at the dentils to the left and above the O in OF on the reverse, you will see much more noticeable gaps between them on the Starr coin than on the Cardinal coin. The dentils on the Cardinal coin are simply larger in their pre-lapped state, and so they appear closer together.
I will echo what others have said, both specimens are extraordinary coins, rich with history, and certainly the very finest known of their respective die states.
EagleEye, your explanation makes sense.
Cardinal's is unequivocally the most gorgeous half disme I've ever seen. After looking at it again this morning I pondered..... zzzzzz
Neither the pinpoint tick I saw on the bust nor the areas of diminished lustre on the high points change that. Other superb pieces as Analyst refers to might have surfaces which some evaluate differently. Put it next to any other half disme, even the other superb ones, and it will stand out on a most visceral level.
The photo really accentuates the intensity of the colors. The same accentuates the color change on the high points. They look whitish in the photos when they are actually covered with fully intact toning. The distraction is minimal, whereas the photo represents the effect as something as quite more jarring. Can't say that my surmise is based on phenomena not explainable in other ways, but it appears like the coin got a bit of cabinet friction and then toned some more. Areas with diminished mint frost have an underlying texture that produces reflectivity with a noticeably different effect.
Whatever die state comparison or analysis might be made with the Starr coin, I concur with the differentiation between apples and oranges, no matter what minor details on Cardinal might be stronger than on Starr. Rim and lettering count for little relative to the all-defining central motif.
The Starr photo represents the toning to be more intense (almost orangeish, even more worse on the reverse) than it is in hand. It's actually pretty light in with some thicker patches that the powerful reflectivity of the proof-like fields backlights from every angle, so it's not cloudy, but there is nothing of iridescence or attractive progressions. The most you can say for the toning is that it's not obtrusive. Certainly not dark. However it's hard to imagine that toning pattern taking a century or two to develop. It wouldn't surprise me if it was acid-dipped within the last 50-75 years and toned back. The prooflike fields are certainly unlike anything else I've seen on a half disme.
The strike is what makes this coin truly special. On Ms. Liberty herself there is a depth of detail two levels stronger than that of Cardinal, Pittman. Hayes, or anything else I've seen. Not just much better than Cardinal, but beyond anything you'd imagine the obverse die could conceivably produce. Its exquisitely intricate detail throughout the entire obverse device is not even suggested as being within the mint's capabilities by any other. Certainly more detail than any specimen Large Cent, or even the Hayes 1795 Draped Bust S$1. I'm trying to remember the 1792 Specimen Copper Disme.
While this statement is gross hyperbole, the lady on the Starr coin looks like a Gallery Mint product next to these others.
I'd note the choking chicken on the Starr coin is sharper than anything one might expect, but not monster++ . The obverse is sui generis. I'd love to see another like it. My dream coin is the best of the three surviving 1792 Silver Dismes. Unseen for 50+ years and considered choice. I expect it is a specimen too.
I'm stunned at how little the Starr coin brought. I got it second-hand that a very shrewd Forum member bought it, I'd guess for a client.
I don't know whether the SP67 sets a ceiling for Cardinal's. Apples and oranges. No brainer.
In many ways my knowledge is superficial in contrast to Martin's or Greg's. I'd love to have Karl M. show up
Somehow this conundrum about value resonates with elements of a bet Fred Weinberg made with Don Kagin about an Ultra-High MCMVII and a 1927-D.
Collectors of classic series are more interested in business strikes than proofs. More field trips, more research, adventure, treasure hunt, more fun, more cameraderie. Less expectation of possible perfection, and a much broader range of grades, strikes, die states, planchet quality, etc, etc. Proofs are somewhat rare and much more expensive. Some collectors throughout all of American numismatic history have bought proofs because they are completeable in consistently high quality after 1838.
Collectors who've been hungering for this classic seminal ne plus ultra for decades never envisioned anything like Cardinal. It's the historicity, the karma juice and actual DNA of our fore-fathers, the miracle of survival (in any grade). A 64 is almost beyond conception. Subject of study, object of veneration, lifelong goal realized more fully than ever imagined, part of an investment fund interested in a Rembrandt if you've got one. Who knows? Cardinal has a prize at the top of a very special mountain.
Oranges and apples.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>I'll take the over on the SP67 at $1.8M. On the other hand, it's small.
Both are OMG+, cooler than the SP66 S$1 in terms of historicity, and with Washington's and Jefferson's karma juice and DNA all over them.
Makes me nostalgic for the late 80's, when this stuff was everywhere occasionally.
Yea, I remember Tom Reynolds had one, and since he was a copper guy he didn't really know what to do with it. It was a PCGS VF-20 as I recall, and I think he wanted $9 grand for it. Since I had a VF-30 I was out, but that piece would have been a nice investment.
CJ: I don't know who brought you to this forum, but I'd like to buy that man a drink.
<< <i>Still at $800k hammer with 24 hours to go. Roadrunner licking his chops over my $1 >>
I'm counting on that $1 to cover a bet I placed in the orange future's market.
<< <i>
<< <i>Still at $800k hammer with 24 hours to go. Roadrunner licking his chops over my $1 >>
TDN, what do you think it will end up at after the dust clears? >>
At least $1 more than the SP67.
PCGS MS68 on Coin Facts
<< <i>Wouldn't have PCGS got a 1% fee for this after 1/1/13? >>
$10,000 incentive.
So now the coin is in a PCGS MS68 holder, what type of value is specifically added to the coin?
It was already the finest known biz strike, the world closely examined the coin 2 months ago. Is the upgrade a true surprise?
<< <i>So now the coin is in a PCGS MS68 holder, what type of value is specifically added to the coin? >>
The most prestigious TPG has validated the grade. Clearly value has been added, at least in the minds
of a significant segment of buyers. And value is largely a function of collective market psychology.
Whatever the holder says, it's a Moose
TDN - Are you saying that you actually paid off on this bet?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I bet it resurfaces in a number of years and sells for far more. >>
I'm not sure you will find anyone (A-N-Y-O-N-E) on the other side of that bet!
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>Wonders never cease. PCGS MS68! Imagine what it would grade if it were fully struck
Whatever the holder says, it's a Moose
And imagine what it would grade without all those high point toning/luster breaks. If the coin were PCGS MS68 prior to the auction, my wallet would be $1 lighter.....it's simpler and
far easier to bet $1 on the Orange Futures market than to figure out which coins will cross or won't cross. The coin would have to earn a sticker to finalize the market grade of 68.
And the other coin would need to sticker at 67 as well. Still, it's specimen/full strike vs. monster color/higher grade....apples vs. oranges. You gotta love this market.