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Tracking the two BIG half dismes

tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
As of today with a few days left at Heritage and a few weeks left at SB:

Starr SP67 $1,000,000 [hammer]

Cardinal MS68 $22,000 [hammer]

PCGS SP67

NGC MS68

Will update this regularly so we can see how these two great coins do.
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Comments

  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That reminds me, I have to go place my bids. I wish.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • I like the ATS one better. Not because of the grade, because of the color.
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In the Heritage auction of the SP67, they include a listing of other high grade examples... the Cardinal NGC MS68 example is there listed about a dozen coins down in the list simply as "Gem Unc." Seems a bit misleading to list it like that and probably done just so their coin would appear to be the highest-graded that exists. But I would guess that most people going for this coin would know of the other anyways...
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,691 ✭✭✭✭✭
    from what I understand that SP67
    is a true first strike coin
    image
    LCoopie = Les
  • sniocsusniocsu Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭
    These coins are just incredible...
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll take the over on the SP67 at $1.8M. On the other hand, it's small.

    Both are OMG+, cooler than the SP66 S$1 in terms of historicity, and with Washington's and Jefferson's karma juice and DNA all over them. image

    Makes me nostalgic for the late 80's, when this stuff was everywhere occasionally. image
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What, no stickers??? Overgraded dreck alert!!!















    imageimage
  • This is a response to an earlier comment that the Starr coin is a true early strike. The die cracks seen on the reverse indicate that it is a late die state coin and probably among the last 5% struck.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This is a response to an earlier comment that the Starr coin is a true early strike. The die cracks seen on the reverse indicate that it is a late die state coin and probably among the last 5% struck. >>



    Assuming this is true [and I have no reason to doubt it], then that makes the full strike and prooflike fields all the more impressive, wouldn't you think?
  • ajmanajman Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭
    What's the difference between the two strike designations? Just trying to learn but in the end these are truly beautiful coins.
    Beer is Proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy -Benjamin Franklin-
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>This is a response to an earlier comment that the Starr coin is a true early strike. The die cracks seen on the reverse indicate that it is a late die state coin and probably among the last 5% struck. >>



    Assuming this is true [and I have no reason to doubt it], then that makes the full strike and prooflike fields all the more impressive, wouldn't you think? >>



    Let's be careful to separate die states and strike quality. Dies can deteriorate while other factors (press adjustment, different guys swinging the screw press, etc.) can impact the quality of the strike. If these are true "specimens" (whatever the heck that means) from late die states it may merely mean that some mechanical adjustment happened after the dies deteriorated. Or it may mean that everyone involved deliberately decided to "make a few nice ones" at the end. Or something in between! In any case, they are (both) amazing coins.


  • << <i>What's the difference between the two strike designations? Just trying to learn but in the end these are truly beautiful coins. >>



    It's just PCGS nomenclature.

    From coinfacts:
    PCGS does not certify any U.S. coins struck before 1816 as Proofs. There are a small handful of pre-1816 coins that were quite obviously special strikes that PCGS designates as "Specimens."
  • bestmrbestmr Posts: 1,761 ✭✭✭
    While I understand the numismatic value of these and appreciate the conditioned rarity, IMO, they are hideous design wise!
    Positive dealing with oilstates2003, rkfish, Scrapman1077, Weather11am, Guitarwes, Twosides2acoin, Hendrixkat, Sevensteps, CarlWohlforth, DLBack, zug, wildjag, tetradrachm, tydye, NotSure, AgBlox, Seemyauction, Stopmotion, Zubie, Fivecents, Musky1011, Bstat1020, Gsa1fan several times, and Mkman123 LOTS of times
  • PCcoinsPCcoins Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭
    If both coins were raw and I had to pick one I would pick the ngc example... love the toning!
    "It is what it is."
  • ajmanajman Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If both coins were raw and I had to pick one I would pick the ngc example... love the toning! >>

    I'd have to agree although for that kind of money I'd be afraid it wouldn't slab because of AT.
    Beer is Proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy -Benjamin Franklin-
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    An often overlooked half dismes reference guide. Shoot, I owe Adam another quarter. MJ

    image

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This will be a good comparison test of plastic holders. May the best plastic win.

    I like the NGC coin better but am not sure if there isn't a little bit of high point "something" on the coin. It will probably sell for a lot less money too. The description of the 68 coin mentions that the "other one" upgraded from 66 to 67 and has a scratch in the left obv field. Sort of expected for each side to bash the other side's coin....lol.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • StaircoinsStaircoins Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭
    Here are the two coins - NGC MS68 (Cardinal) on the left and PCGS SP67 (Starr) on the right.

    imageimage
    imageimage


    I have to agree with Roadrunner that there appears to be a bit of high point friction on the NGC coin, where the PCGS specimen shows little or none. Perhaps the difference is strike rather than rub?

    Obviously the two coins vary dramatically in color. I prefer the NGC coin, but only slightly. It does somehow seem too vivid - although it may be the photos. I could probably live with either coin.

    I wish I could see the whole periphery of the NGC coin. The holder hides much of the lower reverse denticles, but this is a comment on the holder & photo, rather than the coin.

    And then there is the scratch on the PCGS coin. It's fairly prominent in the photo, but this is a small coin, so is probably nowhere near as obtrusive in hand.

    Final score
    Strike: PCGS
    Wear: PCGS
    Color: slight advantage NGC
    Marks: NGC
    Holder: PCGS

    Conclusion: Advantage PCGS


  • << <i>This will be a good comparison test of plastic holders. May the best plastic win.

    I like the NGC coin better but am not sure if there isn't a little bit of high point "something" on the coin. It will probably sell for a lot less money too. The description of the 68 coin mentions that the "other one" upgraded from 66 to 67 and has a scratch in the left obv field. Sort of expected for each side to bash the other side's coin....lol. >>



    In the Starr sale of 1992 when Stack's sold the coin, they mentioned that scratch in the lot description. So they were bashing their own lot at that time I suppose.


  • << <i>Here are the two coins - NGC MS68 (Cardinal) on the left and PCGS SP67 (Starr) on the right.

    I have to agree with Roadrunner that there appears to be a bit of high point friction on the NGC coin, where the PCGS specimen shows little or none. Perhaps the difference is strike rather than rub?

    Obviously the two coins vary dramatically in color. I prefer the NGC coin, but only slightly. It does somehow seem too vivid - although it may be the photos. I could probably live with either coin.

    I wish I could see the whole periphery of the NGC coin. The holder hides much of the lower reverse denticles, but this is a comment on the holder & photo, rather than the coin.

    And then there is the scratch on the PCGS coin. It's fairly prominent in the photo, but this is a small coin, so is probably nowhere near as obtrusive in hand.

    Final score
    Strike: PCGS
    Wear: PCGS
    Color: slight advantage NGC
    Marks: NGC
    Holder: PCGS

    Conclusion: Advantage PCGS >>



    If PCGS is correct in their determination that the Starr coin is a Specimen strike (or presentation piece as Stack's called it), then a comparison of the two coins is apples to oranges.
  • StaircoinsStaircoins Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Final score
    Strike: PCGS
    Wear: PCGS
    Color: slight advantage NGC
    Marks: NGC
    Holder: PCGS

    Conclusion: Advantage PCGS >>



    Take the holder out of the equation since you are asking the question that you want answered and there is a tie. >>

    That is a good point, except for:
    1) The PCGS coin is already in the holder that is (arguably) slightly more respected in the marketplace. The NGC coin would need to be crossed to get into this holder, and it may or may not cross at the same grade.
    2) Of the factors listed above, I weigh strike, wear & marks the most, then color, with holder a distant fifth. The weightings sway the decision to the PCGS coin in my mind.
  • StaircoinsStaircoins Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭


    << <i>... If PCGS is correct in their determination that the Starr coin is a Specimen strike (or presentation piece as Stack's called it), then a comparison of the two coins is apples to oranges. >>

    And a Specimen it may well be. Surfaces notwithstanding, the detail that is struck up on the coin (under the eye, in the hair, along the neckline, neck/breast feathers, etc.) is superb.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I assume that bidding on the NGC 68 coin won't start in earnest until after Heritage sells the other one. I also don't think PCGS would have a problem crossing the NGC specimen to MS68, since they want all the world greatest coins in their holders, and at this level of coin, it is so well known and recognizable that the grade, be it 67, 67+, or 68, isn't what gives it its value.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,410 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>These coins are just incredible... >>

    image
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Of the factors listed above, I weigh strike, wear & marks the most, then color, with holder a distant fifth. The weightings sway the decision to the PCGS coin in my mind.

    In this market? I'd rank those as holder a distant 1st.....then wear, luster, marks, strike. If there's wear on a MS68 coin, I have a slight problem with that. But I have come to
    live with the fact the many federal and early bust silver coins will show slight rub in grades of MS65 and MS66. Sorry, I don't accept rub in the MS67 grade. There are others who
    place the ranking based on.........holder....proper grade assigned....sticker....freshness....then the rest. Makes little sense, but that's our current market system.

    The question of the PCGS coin crossing into an NCG holder has been a non-issue since January 2009. I've never heard anyone in the past 4 years evaluate a PCGS coin on whether it
    could cross "up" at NGC. Without a sticker on this coin (or advanced word from JA stating otherwise) it's market perception is probably already no higher than MS67.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • StaircoinsStaircoins Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Of the factors listed above, I weigh strike, wear & marks the most, then color, with holder a distant fifth. The weightings sway the decision to the PCGS coin in my mind.

    In this market? I'd rank those as holder a distant 1st.....then wear, luster, marks, strike. If there's wear on a MS68 coin, I have a slight problem with that. But I have come to
    live with the fact the many federal and early bust silver coins will show slight rub in grades of MS65 and MS66. Sorry, I don't accept rub in the MS67 grade. There are others who
    place the ranking based on.........holder....proper grade assigned....sticker....freshness....then the rest. Makes little sense, but that's our current market system.

    The question of the PCGS coin crossing into an NCG holder has been a non-issue since January 2009. I've never heard anyone in the past 4 years evaluate a PCGS coin on whether it
    could cross "up" at NGC. Without a sticker on this coin (or advanced word from JA stating otherwise) it's market perception is probably already no higher than MS67. >>

    I agree with you about the rub. I intentionally left out luster because I can't judge that from these photos.

    As far as the importance of the holders, I agree very much that the market has a definite expressed preference, but I like to think that when it comes to coins of this significance that qualified buyers would (hopefully) consider the qualities of the coins themselves at least as much as the plastic.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It will probably sell for a lot less money too.

    I doubt it. The last time each sold was around the same time period and the NGC coin fetched more.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I also don't think PCGS would have a problem crossing the NGC specimen to MS68

    Absolutely no disrespect intended to the Cardinal coin [since I absolutely love it], but if it could easily cross it would already have been crossed.
  • STONESTONE Posts: 15,275
    I would MUCH rather have the MS-64 than the SP67, which are both in the Heritage Sale.

    I wasn't overly impressed with the SP67 that I wanted to be. There was absolutely nothing "special" about it in comparison to a regular MS piece.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ooops - double post
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> It will probably sell for a lot less money too.

    I doubt it. The last time each sold was around the same time period and the NGC coin fetched more. >>




    If the last time they both sold at the same time was in 2009 or later, then I might agree. If it was pre-2009 I don't agree at all. Different world now for different holders.

    I say the PCGS coin brings more this time around.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think 2007ish.

    I will wager you one dollar that the NGC coin brings more this go round as well.
  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    CoinOsaurus: <<Dies can deteriorate while other factors ( press adjustment, different guys swinging the screw press, etc.) can impact the quality of the strike.>>

    The detail on the hair of the Starr piece suggests tht the obv. die had not deteriorated. Nonetheless, imo, CoinOsaurus makes an important point. Adjustments in the setup and/or operation of the press may be responsible for the additional detail in the hair on the Starr piece. I refer to these concepts in my articles.

    CoinOsaurus: << If these are true "specimens" (whatever the heck that means) from late die states it may merely mean that some mechanical adjustment happened after the dies deteriorated. Or it may mean that everyone involved deliberately decided to "make a few nice ones" at the end. Or something in between!In any case, they are (both) amazing coins.>>

    I made these points in my article that was published on CoinWeek.com on Jan. 2nd.

    1792 Half Dismes, Part 2: Amazing Pieces to be Auctioned

    1792 Half Dismes, Part 1: Origins and Meaning

    The Controversy over 1841 Quarter Eagles, Part 3, The physical characteristics of Proof coins
    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I made these points in my article that was published on CoinWeek.com on Jan. 2nd.

    1792 Half Dismes, Part 2: Amazing Pieces to be Auctioned

    1792 Half Dismes, Part 1: Origins and Meaning

    The Controversy over 1841 Quarter Eagles, Part 3, The physical characteristics of Proof coins >>



    very nice reads. ty for the links image
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stack's Cardinal catalog arrived today. Definitely a keeper.
  • mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    I like the Ngc one better.
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  • morgansforevermorgansforever Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Awesome pieces. IMO the one with the blue toning is more attractive.
    World coins FSHO Hundreds of successful BST transactions U.S. coins FSHO
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    someone should post the slab shots of these coins. while these do show aspects of the surfaces, imo they are not accurate compared to in-hand viewing

    HA tends to over-expose 1 set of the images which is beneficial from one point of view
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • I am a sucker for PL skin, I'll take the SP67 please
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Magnificent pieces. MJ
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • SethChandlerSethChandler Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭✭
    This is a cool thread. I love half dismes. They are the real deal.

    I had a chance to view Cardinal's 68....I think at the Long Beach show, an exhibit. Pretty darn mind blowing coin, about as perfectly preserved as can be. Blazing luster, and toning that could not be invented any better if I had a magic wand. As natural as they come. Great coin.

    I def at one point in my life saw a SP Half Disme, but I remember it being more greenish, not like the Starr photos, but it must have been the Starr coin. Very reflective is what I recall, and deeply toned.

    Funny to hear about Pittman's coin. I saw that coin with the old man when he was exhibiting it, among other things. He told me it came from a hoard of UNCs, I forgot the number, best I seem to think just a handful, 5 to 10. He said that he was able to pick from the group and got the best one. Maybe thats where all the Gem came from?FWIW, quite surprised it was a 67. My memory says it was much less of a coin than the Starr and Cardinal coin. A gem, but not super gem.

    Just think about Pittman's comment for a moment. He was able to pick from a group of uncirculated Half Dismes and choose the best. How times have changed!!! Nowadays if I pick through a box of wheat cents, an S mint will cost me more.


    Awesome coins!!!!!

    SethTextHe was able to pick from a group of uncirculated Half Dismes and choose the best
    Collecting since 1976.
  • coinlieutenantcoinlieutenant Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah...that is pretty freaking amazing. People can only dream of that now...

  • As someone who has viewed the entirety of the Cardinal Collection, I can assure you that the high points on that coin are NOT worn at all. It is strike and there is neigh a mark on the coin. The color and luster are on par with Morgan $1's from the Battle Creek hoard. Anyway, white does contrast color better on silver IMO, forget what brand the holder is, white shows off color.
    Specialist in Lincoln Cents, Toned Type, and Slab enthusiast.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SP67 sells for $1,410,000 total
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I viewed the SP67 this morning. I enjoyed it very much. It was a highlight of my day early in the morning. Let's just say it is not my series or era but I was surprised to see the left obverse field scratch (or what appears to be a scratch to me) on the 67. Do not get me wrong, it's amazing to hold in your hand. It was beautiful.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>SP67 sells for $1,410,000 total >>



    What did it sell last go around and when was that?
    thanks >>



    2006 for $1,150,000

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