Question regarding Modern Gold Spotting/Toning in PCGS holders

ShinyThingsInPM · March 8, 2013 12:24AM

I was reviewing part of my collections that has been sitting in SDB for some time. To my huge disappointment I found out that a few modern gold coins in PCGS holders that dear to me have developed some spots and toning. Interestingly enough the coins in mint capsules that were in the same blue PCGS box did not develop any issues.

I mostly care about the ones in MS/PR70, some FS. What are my options?

1. Does Guarantee Resubmission covers gold spotting?

From PCGS page "This guarantee shall not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to certification, including spotting on modern silver coins" but not gold. In another paragraph "The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, and corrosion In my mind gold being one of the the most inert metals stored in the normal conditions in SDB would not be subject to environmental deterioration

2. If the option 1 does not work can Restoration Service take care of Gold toning/spotting and restore to the original condition?

Any other options available?

Thanks in advance

lcoopie · March 8, 2013 12:29AM

do you have photos?

derryb · March 8, 2013 12:41AM

if the toning is a brass color, i see it often with modern gold, particularly AGEs, in PCGS and ICG holders. something I feel PCGS should address and deal with once and for all.

ricko · March 8, 2013 1:34AM

Pictures would help....Cheers, RickO

crypto79 · March 8, 2013 1:38AM

<< <i>if the toning is a brass color, i see it often with modern gold, particularly AGEs, in PCGS and ICG holders. something I feel PCGS should address and deal with once and for all. >>

I like it and seek it out on bullion buys, why should they address it one way or another.

derryb · March 8, 2013 1:59AM

<< <i>

<< <i>if the toning is a brass color, i see it often with modern gold, particularly AGEs, in PCGS and ICG holders. something I feel PCGS should address and deal with once and for all. >>

I like it and seek it out on bullion buys, why should they address it one way or another. >>

Costing them money with their guarantee (if in fact it does) would be a good reason. Loss of grading of AGEs to competitors would be another good reason. I know of a number of AGE collectors who shy away from specific TPGs because of this toning I'm referring to. Maybe a few of them will chime in with their opinion.

example of "gold" toning

mkman123 · March 8, 2013 3:18AM

It's known that gold coins in pcgs holders sometimes tone or develop red spots. Happened to a friend of mine, his proof 70 gold all in pcgs holders developed red spots and other toning issues and it cost him $$$$ when he tried to sell. These are coins he bought that had no issues but after a few years, the issues arose.

ShinyThingsInPM · March 8, 2013 3:31AM

I will post some pictures over weekend, I was so upset that I left them in SDB till I figure out what the options are

AMRC · March 8, 2013 3:36AM

That's the thing with collecting things that are not really old enough to be collectables.

wondercoin · March 8, 2013 4:08AM

If it was me, I would do nothing right now as even if you go to all the trouble to correct the issue, there is a chance the coin will simply tone/spot again ... multiplying your frustration big time!! The coin is in your collection for now ... just leave it there.

At least that is what I am doing with coins in the "same boat".

Wondercoin

ShinyThingsInPM · March 8, 2013 5:04AM

@ WC If it was me, I would do nothing right now as even if you go to all the trouble to correct the issue, there is a chance the coin will simply tone/spot again ... multiplying your frustration big time!! The coin is in your collection for now ... just leave it there.

I have to unfortunately disagree with that statement. I cannot afford multiples of the same coins and they are not cheap in my terms either. They're not really worth keeping long term either as much as I love them since their visual appearance deteriorated this quickly

If they are covered by the grade guarantee - then I can get another sample and be whole. If not - it's a sizable loss and a few decisions to make:

- If it's a ticking time bomb and is not covered by the grade guarantee - why bother paying premium for premium slab/grade/label. I know it's a different subject but it is part of dcision to make.For exactly this reason I stopped buying any Silver coins since 2011 ASE spotting issues. If it's now also an issue with Gold in particular TPG holders - should I swithch to the ATS holders instead? It will certainly be less expensive to assemble the same set in the other holders

- Should I also dump my other premium grade holdings in the wrong holders before they also go bad

- Should I just give up on "slab" collecting and just stick to "coin" collecting in OGP. They have the same or smaller chance of going bad but cost much less premium for bells and whistles

wondercoin · March 8, 2013 5:18AM

Where did I suggest that you buy "multiples"??

Wondercoin

Mark · March 8, 2013 5:25AM

Wondercoin:

I presume that there is some time limit beyond which gold coins are increasingly less likely to spot. Since gold spotting is happening to some of your coins, is there some sort of "deadline" beyond which you think modern gold coins are safe to buy because they are unlikely to develop spots?

Thanks.

djm · March 8, 2013 5:26AM

The MS/PR 70 Coins would most likely down grade to 69's if they were sent in under the gaurantee service.

If the spots bother you that much send them in and let PCGS buy the coins from you at the Price Guide value.

I believe that Mitch's point about doing nothing for right now, is a permenate solution to the problem is on the horizion. If you wait and then have the coins conserved you will be better off in the long run.

mkman123 · March 8, 2013 5:29AM

Pcgs needs to address the spotting issues on gold because some have sold out and gone ats with no issues on spotting, toning.

wondercoin · March 8, 2013 5:45AM

First, interestingly, Platinum seldom spots or hazes (as compared to .9999 gold which, in theory, should not be hazing up either). So, the OP obviously likes platinum coins and should be fine overall with those.

Second, with respect to gold eagles (just around 91% gold) ... expect patination ... it's natural. And, in fact, it can INCREASE the value of a PCGS gold coin if and when the patination is pretty. Of course, you don't know what is going to turn pretty until enough time passes (another reason to not rush out a dip the gold every time you see a touch of tone or haze developing).

To answer Mark's question, I have personally seen dipped modern gold retone (which is why I suggested to not rush out and "fix" your coins at the first sign of patination or evening "spotting"). And, yes, where I have some slabbed modern gold coins that have been in holders for 5+ years without a trace of patination, these coins usually continue to remain untoned.

In the past, PCGS has "restored" these coins for free and they come out" blazing" usually. I am not sure if these are free any longer or whether they need to be restored under the 4% or 5% fee structure? If someone gets an answer on this, I would also like to know.

I have some proof gold that has toned beautifully. I think that toning has increased the price of the coins, even the 70's. For example, the 1993 Proof Silver Eagle in the Philadelphia set ... that coin when out of a truly fresh Philly set displays lovely purple toning. I have been buying those for the past 10+ years whenever I can and happily pay close to 2x the rate of a blast white typical proof silver eagle from that year (for the killer toned silver eagle coins).

Wondercoin

ShinyThingsInPM · March 8, 2013 6:08AM

On this I agree with Wondercoin that toning can be very attractive. I have a few that toned very well including 2008-W $5 burnished AGE but this is $400 coin on the good day. But playing Russian roulette with 2009 UHRs, and $50 burnished AGEs and Buffalos is a bit expensive. And yes - I know even more love Platinume for one more reason - the only one bullion that does not spot !

ricko · March 8, 2013 7:14AM

@Wondercoin... I have a '93 Philadelphia set, I have not looked at in quite a while - will have to check it out. Cheers, RickO

derryb · March 8, 2013 8:02AM

The 93 Phily set develops unique, beautiful toning after being stored for years in its original green cardboard holder. Let's not confuse this with the slab toning that periodically occurs to modern gold after it has spent a couple of years in the PCGS (or ICG) slab. I have bought and sold tens of thousands of raw and graded AGEs and can tell you the "slab" toning does not normally compliment the looks of the coin. I can also say that I have seen this "slab" toning problem appear only within these two slabs. I have long suspected it is an issue of the slab's paper label not being sealed off from the coin and "gassing" the coin over time. Because I do not know the properties of the various slab labels, or any coloring agents, used over the years by the two TPGs, I cannot confirm this. With PCGS it appears to be more common with the regular blue label, but then again this is a more common label for PCGS. I have noted that the "W" burnished gold can also suffer the affect. My questions to PCGS and ICG would be (1) "are your slab labels completely inert or is it possible that the label ink can be affecting the coins?" and (2) "does your slab sealing process ensure that the paper label is and remains sealed off from the coin?"

Think about it - If in fact the coloring used in a slab label (even if the label material itself is inert) is not sealed from the coin, a slabbed coin is now confined to a very small and sealed space it must share with something that can affect it surface's properties. Maybe one of our crackout specialists can report back with how well these two slabbed items appear to be sealed from each other once they share a sealed slabbed.

The problem I have with slab toning is that in many cases it brings out the bad qualities of a coin including spotting issues nor does it normally present itself as natural or gradual toning of the coin's surfaces. It most often appears to have occured in a random and rapid fashion.

wondercoin · March 8, 2013 8:29AM

Some philly silver eagles are beautiful while others can be dull and lifeless. Those philly sets are like a box of chocolates.... wondercoin

ShinyThingsInPM · March 10, 2013 8:19AM

I took some pictures of 2 coins. Obviously my coins photography skills suck

but there are some visible toning and spots even I could capture

2006-W Reverse Proof PCGS PR70 FS

There are multiple sports and also the area close to rim is significantly darker

2008-W $10 Gold Eagle MS70

The areas close to the rim at 12, 6 and 9 o'clock have some ugly brown stains

ShinyThingsInPM · March 11, 2013 7:14AM

Bump for pictures posted

Question regarding Modern Gold Spotting/Toning in PCGS holders

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