That is probably true for a large sample size and only considering the coin's grade. I would agree that grade-wise those coins would be generally equal. But, if we then toss in market pricing (especially at a major public auction), it is clearly NOT the case that NGC + CAC = PCGS + CAC when it comes to non-generic coins in generic coins (ie coins that often sell sight unseen for the same money regardless of holder....ie MS61-66 common Morgans and Saint's for example).
With market (selling) pricing factored in we then get NGC + CAC = PCGS + CAC - 15% (on average). The deduction ranges from 5 to 30% as a rule.
NGC and PCGS have had slightly different grading standards since day 1. In some cases like MS62-MS66 bust halves and seated dollars the differences are very obvious. That's why there are huge price differences between those types of coins carrying the same grade. CAC levels the grading field somewhat. Unfortunately, that hasn't leveled the pricing field.
I prefer not to worry abt prices and what gets me more money. i have lost money on many and gained on some, I'm in it for fun and crossing, upgrading doesn't matter to me while to others it matters.
Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
Is JA grading or market grading? The greysheet (gasp!) says that NGC coins are valued less, many people have commented that NGC is valued less, so is JA saying that NGC-CAC is solid for an NGC grade, or solid for the grade? To repeat my comments from other threads, I personally have seen so many "overgraded" NGC commems, that I truly believe that their standard is different, at least for that series, and I do own several.
When will folks understand that the CAC sticker simply means that the CAC folks agree with the grade assigned by the TPG whose plastic the coin resides in? When will folks realize that NGC is PCGS's "primary" grading competition. PCGS does not want folks to submit coins to NGC. PCGS does not want folks to even purchase NGC Graded Coins. As such, NGC coins which are crossed to PCGS serve two purposes:
Since NGC IS the competition, the coins are scrutinized more closely and more than likely, graded to a stricter standard.
Crossing coins at grade from NGC to PCGS plastic sends a statement that buying NGC coins at a lower cost and then crossing to PCGS Plastic is OK. It;snot ok.
When will folks realize that a green beaned NGC coin will NOT automatically cross at grade to PCGS Plastic since the CAC sticker, in and oif itself, is nothing more than an "opinion"?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
"I have grown to detest these NGC vs. PCGS, CAC vs. no CAC, raw vs. slabbed, OGH vs. new holders, etc. threads.
In some ways, it is like talking about religion or politics. Established collectors have a belief system that works for them, and no matter what arguments, snide comments, or evidence that one may present, the belief system is not going to budge.
The bottom line is I like things the way that I like them, and I really do not care if you do not like them that way. I have a reasonable amount of experience, good and bad, that have formed my opinions and drive my behavior. No amount of peer pressure, anecdotes, data, or cajoling is going to make me think or behave differently, and so long as I am harming no one, it really should not matter.
I would recommend that beginning collectors, as they gain experience, strive to get to this place and worry more about what is inside the holder than what is on the holder.
This will (hopefully) be the last thing I ever say on the matter."
<< <i>I have grown to detest these NGC vs. PCGS, CAC vs. no CAC, raw vs. slabbed, OGH vs. new holders, etc. threads. >>
I know what you mean. These threads are sort of like a really bad car wreck---you don't want to look but you can help yourself.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I have grown to detest these NGC vs. PCGS, CAC vs. no CAC, raw vs. slabbed, OGH vs. new holders, etc. threads. >>
I know what you mean. These threads are sort of like a really bad car wreck---you don't want to look but you can help yourself. >>
Lol, so true, however I always get a laugh from many sobish posters and who does'nt need a laugh now and then. In fact JA has openly discussed his grading approach during his fireside chats, if anyone here is really interested in learning perhaps you should join in and become more knowageable of why/how a bean is handed out.
Another misplaced thread about plastic instead of what is in the plastic- that is what matters. Holders can be changed and what is in the holder should remain constant and clearly trumps the grade opinion on the label
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
For those of you still reading this thread - I buy anything if I like the coin. I do not submit raw coins to TPGs nor do I attempt to cross from one TPG to another. I buy the coin and do not concern myself with what they will sell for - it's a hobby; I expect to lose money but if I don't that's okay. Most of you would cringe if you knew what I had raw.
I wasn't trying to start a plastic war or denigrate TPGs in any way. I don't have a bone to pick. What I wanted was an explanation on the value of CAC. If CAC says a coin is solid for the grade then shouldn't CAC'd coins from any TPG be the same as any other TPG -neglecting the fact that some coins look better/worse than others for the same grade? If PCGS always sells for more than NGC coins why would one bother to CAC anything but PCGS? Better yet, why CAC at all?
It has nothing to do with your personal experiences about selling or buying. It has to do with CAC saying a coin is solid for the grade. Why would one believe that for a PCGS encapsulated coin but not for an NGC one?
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
<< <i>I have grown to detest these NGC vs. PCGS, CAC vs. no CAC, raw vs. slabbed, OGH vs. new holders, etc. threads. >>
I know what you mean. These threads are sort of like a really bad car wreck---you don't want to look but you can help yourself. >>
Lol, so true, however I always get a laugh from many sobish posters and who does'nt need a laugh now and then. In fact JA has openly discussed his grading approach during his fireside chats, if anyone here is really interested in learning perhaps you should join in and become more knowageable of why/how a bean is handed out. >>
How do you join in a fireside chat with JA?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I don't have as much experience with CAC, but I do have a lot of experience crossing NGC slabbed coins to PCGS, especially Proof copper.
This was an interesting case study.
This was an NGC PF67BN Lincoln that I bought last year and when I crossed it to PCGS was surprised it dropped 2 grades (from 67 to 65). Thinking this might be PCGS punishing an NGC slabbed crossover coin, I resubmitted this in the PCGS slab for a regrade and it came back a 2nd time as PR65 -- so clearly the PR65 assessment by PCGS was an accurate grade in their eyes (with no politics involved). And NGC saw this one 2 grade levels higher. Sort of emphasizes the notion that PCGS is tougher (than NGC) on copper at least.
Here are the rough percentages I have found when going from NGC to PCGS with Proof Copper ...
about 5% increase 1 grade (a rare occurrence at best) about 20% cross at grade (the 2nd most likely result) about 45% drop 1 grade (the most typical, most likely result) about 15% drop 2 grades (rarer than the above 2 results) about 15% wont grade (QC) (note that I buy mostly toned coins)
So the mean (average) result I have found is most NGC slabbed proof copper coins drop one grade when going to PCGS. In other words, PCGS is a bit stricter (than NGC) on copper by an average of about 1 grade.
As I recall I have submitted only one or two NGC CAC's coins to PCGS and I recall both dropped 1 grade. So a CAC sticker doesn't guarantee a trouble free crossing "at grade" (at least with proof copper).
Sorry Mowgli- my comments are not directed at you. Its just that the coin and the state of preservation of coins never seems to obtain top billing over the plastic that they temporarily reside. The discussion rarely focuses on what is truly important- the coin. Without the coin, the discussion of plastic and stickers does not advance grading skills or address the question why a coin is in the holder it is.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Is JA grading or market grading? The greysheet (gasp!) says that NGC coins are valued less, many people have commented that NGC is valued less, so is JA saying that NGC-CAC is solid for an NGC grade, or solid for the grade? To repeat my comments from other threads, I personally have seen so many "overgraded" NGC commems, that I truly believe that their standard is different, at least for that series, and I do own several. >>
I strongly disagree - the CMI indicator (CDN 2-08-13) of the greysheet shows them both at 83% (average). 82.67% for PCGS and 82.94% for NGC.
<< <i>Is JA grading or market grading? The greysheet (gasp!) says that NGC coins are valued less, many people have commented that NGC is valued less, so is JA saying that NGC-CAC is solid for an NGC grade, or solid for the grade? To repeat my comments from other threads, I personally have seen so many "overgraded" NGC commems, that I truly believe that their standard is different, at least for that series, and I do own several. >>
I strongly disagree - the CMI indicator (CDN 2-08-13) of the greysheet shows them both at 83% (average). 82.67% for PCGS and 82.94% for NGC. >>
The Greysheet has been irrelevant for many of our collecting endeavors for many years. Therefore, any data or pricing information that comes from the Greysheet is similarly irrelevant. I have not looked at a Greysheet in at least 5-7 years. If I paid it any attention, I would likely not have any semblance of a coin collection, save for some modern mint products.
<< <i>For those of you still reading this thread - I buy anything if I like the coin. I do not submit raw coins to TPGs nor do I attempt to cross from one TPG to another. I buy the coin and do not concern myself with what they will sell for - it's a hobby; I expect to lose money but if I don't that's okay. Most of you would cringe if you knew what I had raw.
I wasn't trying to start a plastic war or denigrate TPGs in any way. I don't have a bone to pick. What I wanted was an explanation on the value of CAC. If CAC says a coin is solid for the grade then shouldn't CAC'd coins from any TPG be the same as any other TPG -neglecting the fact that some coins look better/worse than others for the same grade? If PCGS always sells for more than NGC coins why would one bother to CAC anything but PCGS? Better yet, why CAC at all?
It has nothing to do with your personal experiences about selling or buying. It has to do with CAC saying a coin is solid for the grade. Why would one believe that for a PCGS encapsulated coin but not for an NGC one? >>
Well look at many of the responses and you can begin to formulate an answer. For some its all about the uniforimity and registry, others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies. The fact is that neither company is 100% correct or 100% wrong, its just an opinion given on a certain day that is subject to change at any time. I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic, who lost here the coin or the collector, the coin has not changed just the perception of it. In fact lots of the coin that are crossed to "maximize profits" in fact dont because when you add up the costs to ship, slab, etc before it sells I suspect that at best its a wash, but hey it their money not mine. I'd prefer to buy at a 20% discount and sell at the same 20% discount with no added fees inbetween.
Bidask, if you join the CAC fourm there is an announcment before each chat. This works as a conference call and you are speaking/asking questions directly with JA, I have learned a great deal from particiapating in afew of these chats.
I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic...
There you go again. You are hurting my feelings.
others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies.
BTW, have you noticed who owns this website? Is it shocking to you that the folks who post here might be more likely than not to be supportive of the company who owns the website that hosts this forum? Just checking.
<< <i>I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic...
There you go again. You are hurting my feelings.
others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies.
BTW, have you noticed who owns this website? Is it shocking to you that the folks who post here might be more likely than not to be supportive of the company who owns the website that hosts this forum? Just checking. >>
So sorry RYK but peeps who throw money away do make me chuckle and yes I know full well where I am as on the first page in my first response to this thread I said "In fact asking this question here is silly as many on this board are serious kool-aid drinkers so the replies will be slanted." I was really thinking about dimeman's reply when I wrote that but if you feel the shoe fits...
Wouldn't it be funny if you took a coin, put it into a PCGS holder, and it got better....then you took it and put it into an NCC holder....and it got worse ?
<< <i>Wouldn't it be funny if you took a coin, put it into a PCGS holder, and it got better....then you took it and put it into an NCC holder....and it got worse ? >>
Based upon the relative clarities of their respective plastic, IMO that is exactly what APPEARS to happen.
<< <i>I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic...
There you go again. You are hurting my feelings.
others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies.
BTW, have you noticed who owns this website? Is it shocking to you that the folks who post here might be more likely than not to be supportive of the company who owns the website that hosts this forum? Just checking. >>
So sorry RYK but peeps who throw money away do make me chuckle and yes I know full well where I am as on the first page in my first response to this thread I said "In fact asking this question here is silly as many on this board are serious kool-aid drinkers so the replies will be slanted." I was really thinking about dimeman's reply when I wrote that but if you feel the shoe fits... >>
"Throwing money away" is a very relative and judgmental, and I would look at your registry sets and say, "Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house." Anyone who thinks that he or she is doing it the right way and that those who do it differently are wrong needs to stop taking himself too seriously.
<< <i>Wouldn't it be funny if you took a coin, put it into a PCGS holder, and it got better....then you took it and put it into an NCC holder....and it got worse ? >>
Based upon the relative clarities of their respective plastic, IMO that is exactly what APPEARS to happen. >>
Oh, I disagree...the clarity of the NGC plastic is really quite superb
<< <i> This will (hopefully) be the last thing I ever say on the matter. >>
Ok my mistake. Here is what you said. >>
Yes, I am not speaking on the PCGS vs. NGC, CAC vs, no CAC, etc, matters.
When a collector disses other collectors for doing things in a way that he does not approve, especially if it is my way, I will be speaking up...that is, if I have your permission.
Edit: Oh, yeah, this is not the CAC forum, so I do not need your permission.
<< <i>I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic...
There you go again. You are hurting my feelings.
others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies.
BTW, have you noticed who owns this website? Is it shocking to you that the folks who post here might be more likely than not to be supportive of the company who owns the website that hosts this forum? Just checking. >>
So sorry RYK but peeps who throw money away do make me chuckle and yes I know full well where I am as on the first page in my first response to this thread I said "In fact asking this question here is silly as many on this board are serious kool-aid drinkers so the replies will be slanted." I was really thinking about dimeman's reply when I wrote that but if you feel the shoe fits... >>
You have a Decent Lincoln set and you walk the walk with a mixture of NGC and pcgs coins. Just one question, why is everyone of your key dates in PCGS plastic? It's easy to buy cheap NGC common dates at a discount that fit the bill but it takes stones to buy key dates that won't resale well.
Maybe you believe what you are talking about and its a coincidence your 1909s VDB, 1914d, 1926s RB ect are all in pcgs plastic. Or maybe it speaks louder than your argument. Who knows
<< <i>I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic...
There you go again. You are hurting my feelings.
others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies.
BTW, have you noticed who owns this website? Is it shocking to you that the folks who post here might be more likely than not to be supportive of the company who owns the website that hosts this forum? Just checking. >>
So sorry RYK but peeps who throw money away do make me chuckle and yes I know full well where I am as on the first page in my first response to this thread I said "In fact asking this question here is silly as many on this board are serious kool-aid drinkers so the replies will be slanted." I was really thinking about dimeman's reply when I wrote that but if you feel the shoe fits... >>
"Throwing money away" is a very relative and judgmental, and I would look at your registry sets and say, "Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house." Anyone who thinks that he or she is doing it the right way and that those who do it differently are wrong needs to stop taking himself too seriously. >>
Ouce that hurts people make judgements about people and things all day every day its human nature. No glass house on this subject as I have submitted very very few coins for crossover and most if not all of those have been from third tier companies. And to be honest we all think we are doing it the right way now dont we
<< <i>You have a Decent Lincoln set and you walk the walk with a mixture of NGC and pcgs coins. Just one question, why is everyone of your key dates in PCGS plastic? It's easy to buy cheap NGC common dates at a discount that fit the bill but it takes stones to buy key dates that won't resale well.
Maybe you believe what you are talking about and its a coincidence your 1909s VDB, 1914d, 1926s RB ect are all in pcgs plastic. Or maybe it speaks louder than your argument. Who knows >>
Thank you its a fun set and someday I may finally finish it. To answer your question it was pure chance, as I have said many times I buy the coin not just the holder, those key dates you pointed out are in PCGS holders and other than the 14-D I really like those coins. The 14-d is a dog and was part of my tutition; but I'll also point out the 18-S in 66BN which is NGC, I also have a duplicate 23-S which is housed in a PCI holder and graded higher than the PCGS graded one in my set. I also have many ANACS graded coins that have never and will never attempt to cross as well as many raw coins, for me it truly is more about the coin than the holder, well except for my fun set of old holders.
I prefer my coins to be in PCGS plastic and stickered. It is however not mandatory in any way, shape or form. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The fact is that the PUBLIC and COLLECTORS simply prefer PCGS over NGC. No question about it...and I was 100% in that camp. On numerous times I have seen two near identical coins in an auction in both holders and the PCGS coins always brought better money.
<< <i>So I can buy near identical coins cheaper in NGC holders. i'll take that path... >>
And you'll be pissed off when you eventually sell them. I can almost guarantee you that the lesser price will be well in excess of what you think you "saved".
Don't take my word for it...I've only seen it happen hundreds of times. Sellers at auctions with big NGC coins sitting with looks on their faces like their dog just got hit by a car. Reality has no sympathy.
I think you need to bone up on SG's "Pursuit of the absolutely BEST coin for the grade" theory....I referred to it as 'lateral upgrading'. Even fractionally better coins will increase the desirabilty quite a bit.
You save a few bucks and you get what you pay for...a coin that no one will take a second glance at. Pay 10% more for a spectacular coin for the grade and watch if it brings 25% more...it happens quite frequently with better coins. I might know.
Winged Liberty said it all by having the courage to post his crosses and especially those with CAC..YES, PCGS is tougher, just ask David Hall. I have heard him say this before. So If you don't want to believe the folks here, go ask him yourself. Or better yet, you folks who fall on the sword of CAC, show us your cross over grades, not the good ones, the ones that did NOT. So in my opinion the bean is a marginal bit of insurance - nothing else.
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
My basic logic of collecting is to own both PCGS and NGC coins. Would never eliminate NGC coins just because they are not worth as much as PCGS coins and would never cross them either.
<< <i>You save a few bucks and you get what you pay for...a coin that no one will take a second glance at. >>
Wow!!! I'm surprised that NGC is even still in business.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
<< <i>To me NGC + CAC = same as PCGS + CAC
No kool aid for me >>
That is probably true for a large sample size and only considering the coin's grade. I would agree that grade-wise those coins would be generally equal.
But, if we then toss in market pricing (especially at a major public auction), it is clearly NOT the case that NGC + CAC = PCGS + CAC when it comes to non-generic coins in
generic coins (ie coins that often sell sight unseen for the same money regardless of holder....ie MS61-66 common Morgans and Saint's for example).
With market (selling) pricing factored in we then get NGC + CAC = PCGS + CAC - 15% (on average). The deduction ranges from 5 to 30% as a rule.
NGC and PCGS have had slightly different grading standards since day 1. In some cases like MS62-MS66 bust halves and seated dollars the differences are very obvious.
That's why there are huge price differences between those types of coins carrying the same grade. CAC levels the grading field somewhat. Unfortunately, that hasn't leveled
the pricing field.
Good things can happen...of course, occasionally bad things too.
J
siliconvalleycoins.com
And I am like RYK. I will buy a coin I need and like no matter what holder it is in.......then cross to PCGS. Or if raw just submit the coin to PCGS.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>To me and many others NGC+CAC = PCGS+CAC >>
Unfortunately, PCGS does not feel the same way.
When will folks understand that the CAC sticker simply means that the CAC folks agree with the grade assigned by the TPG whose plastic the coin resides in?
When will folks realize that NGC is PCGS's "primary" grading competition. PCGS does not want folks to submit coins to NGC. PCGS does not want folks to even purchase NGC Graded Coins. As such, NGC coins which are crossed to PCGS serve two purposes:
Since NGC IS the competition, the coins are scrutinized more closely and more than likely, graded to a stricter standard.
Crossing coins at grade from NGC to PCGS plastic sends a statement that buying NGC coins at a lower cost and then crossing to PCGS Plastic is OK. It;snot ok.
When will folks realize that a green beaned NGC coin will NOT automatically cross at grade to PCGS Plastic since the CAC sticker, in and oif itself, is nothing more than an "opinion"?
The name is LEE!
"I have grown to detest these NGC vs. PCGS, CAC vs. no CAC, raw vs. slabbed, OGH vs. new holders, etc. threads.
In some ways, it is like talking about religion or politics. Established collectors have a belief system that works for them, and no matter what arguments, snide comments, or evidence that one may present, the belief system is not going to budge.
The bottom line is I like things the way that I like them, and I really do not care if you do not like them that way. I have a reasonable amount of experience, good and bad, that have formed my opinions and drive my behavior. No amount of peer pressure, anecdotes, data, or cajoling is going to make me think or behave differently, and so long as I am harming no one, it really should not matter.
I would recommend that beginning collectors, as they gain experience, strive to get to this place and worry more about what is inside the holder than what is on the holder.
This will (hopefully) be the last thing I ever say on the matter."
<< <i>I have grown to detest these NGC vs. PCGS, CAC vs. no CAC, raw vs. slabbed, OGH vs. new holders, etc. threads. >>
I know what you mean. These threads are sort of like a really bad car wreck---you don't want to look but you can help yourself.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I have grown to detest these NGC vs. PCGS, CAC vs. no CAC, raw vs. slabbed, OGH vs. new holders, etc. threads. >>
I know what you mean. These threads are sort of like a really bad car wreck---you don't want to look but you can help yourself. >>
Lol, so true, however I always get a laugh from many sobish posters and who does'nt need a laugh now and then. In fact JA has openly discussed his grading approach during his fireside chats, if anyone here is really interested in learning perhaps you should join in and become more knowageable of why/how a bean is handed out.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I wasn't trying to start a plastic war or denigrate TPGs in any way. I don't have a bone to pick. What I wanted was an explanation on the value of CAC. If CAC says a coin is solid for the grade then shouldn't CAC'd coins from any TPG be the same as any other TPG -neglecting the fact that some coins look better/worse than others for the same grade? If PCGS always sells for more than NGC coins why would one bother to CAC anything but PCGS? Better yet, why CAC at all?
It has nothing to do with your personal experiences about selling or buying. It has to do with CAC saying a coin is solid for the grade. Why would one believe that for a PCGS encapsulated coin but not for an NGC one?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have grown to detest these NGC vs. PCGS, CAC vs. no CAC, raw vs. slabbed, OGH vs. new holders, etc. threads. >>
I know what you mean. These threads are sort of like a really bad car wreck---you don't want to look but you can help yourself. >>
Lol, so true, however I always get a laugh from many sobish posters and who does'nt need a laugh now and then. In fact JA has openly discussed his grading approach during his fireside chats, if anyone here is really interested in learning perhaps you should join in and become more knowageable of why/how a bean is handed out. >>
How do you join in a fireside chat with JA?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I have several cac NGC coins I tried to cross for registry set purposes and they did not cross.
I never tried again and have lesser coins represented in my PCGS set as a result.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
This was an interesting case study.
This was an NGC PF67BN Lincoln that I bought last year and when I crossed it to PCGS was surprised it dropped 2 grades (from 67 to 65).
Thinking this might be PCGS punishing an NGC slabbed crossover coin, I resubmitted this in the PCGS slab for a regrade and it came back a 2nd time as PR65 --
so clearly the PR65 assessment by PCGS was an accurate grade in their eyes (with no politics involved). And NGC saw this one 2 grade levels higher.
Sort of emphasizes the notion that PCGS is tougher (than NGC) on copper at least.
Here are the rough percentages I have found when going from NGC to PCGS with Proof Copper ...
about 5% increase 1 grade (a rare occurrence at best)
about 20% cross at grade (the 2nd most likely result)
about 45% drop 1 grade (the most typical, most likely result)
about 15% drop 2 grades (rarer than the above 2 results)
about 15% wont grade (QC) (note that I buy mostly toned coins)
So the mean (average) result I have found is most NGC slabbed proof copper coins drop one grade when going to PCGS.
In other words, PCGS is a bit stricter (than NGC) on copper by an average of about 1 grade.
As I recall I have submitted only one or two NGC CAC's coins to PCGS and I recall both dropped 1 grade.
So a CAC sticker doesn't guarantee a trouble free crossing "at grade" (at least with proof copper).
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Is JA grading or market grading? The greysheet (gasp!) says that NGC coins are valued less, many people have commented that NGC is valued less, so is JA saying that NGC-CAC is solid for an NGC grade, or solid for the grade? To repeat my comments from other threads, I personally have seen so many "overgraded" NGC commems, that I truly believe that their standard is different, at least for that series, and I do own several. >>
I strongly disagree - the CMI indicator (CDN 2-08-13) of the greysheet shows them both at 83% (average). 82.67% for PCGS and 82.94% for NGC.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is JA grading or market grading? The greysheet (gasp!) says that NGC coins are valued less, many people have commented that NGC is valued less, so is JA saying that NGC-CAC is solid for an NGC grade, or solid for the grade? To repeat my comments from other threads, I personally have seen so many "overgraded" NGC commems, that I truly believe that their standard is different, at least for that series, and I do own several. >>
I strongly disagree - the CMI indicator (CDN 2-08-13) of the greysheet shows them both at 83% (average). 82.67% for PCGS and 82.94% for NGC. >>
The Greysheet has been irrelevant for many of our collecting endeavors for many years. Therefore, any data or pricing information that comes from the Greysheet is similarly irrelevant. I have not looked at a Greysheet in at least 5-7 years. If I paid it any attention, I would likely not have any semblance of a coin collection, save for some modern mint products.
<< <i>For those of you still reading this thread - I buy anything if I like the coin. I do not submit raw coins to TPGs nor do I attempt to cross from one TPG to another. I buy the coin and do not concern myself with what they will sell for - it's a hobby; I expect to lose money but if I don't that's okay. Most of you would cringe if you knew what I had raw.
I wasn't trying to start a plastic war or denigrate TPGs in any way. I don't have a bone to pick. What I wanted was an explanation on the value of CAC. If CAC says a coin is solid for the grade then shouldn't CAC'd coins from any TPG be the same as any other TPG -neglecting the fact that some coins look better/worse than others for the same grade? If PCGS always sells for more than NGC coins why would one bother to CAC anything but PCGS? Better yet, why CAC at all?
It has nothing to do with your personal experiences about selling or buying. It has to do with CAC saying a coin is solid for the grade. Why would one believe that for a PCGS encapsulated coin but not for an NGC one? >>
Well look at many of the responses and you can begin to formulate an answer. For some its all about the uniforimity and registry, others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies. The fact is that neither company is 100% correct or 100% wrong, its just an opinion given on a certain day that is subject to change at any time. I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic, who lost here the coin or the collector, the coin has not changed just the perception of it. In fact lots of the coin that are crossed to "maximize profits" in fact dont because when you add up the costs to ship, slab, etc before it sells I suspect that at best its a wash, but hey it their money not mine. I'd prefer to buy at a 20% discount and sell at the same 20% discount with no added fees inbetween.
Bidask, if you join the CAC fourm there is an announcment before each chat. This works as a conference call and you are speaking/asking questions directly with JA, I have learned a great deal from particiapating in afew of these chats.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
There you go again. You are hurting my feelings.
others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies.
BTW, have you noticed who owns this website? Is it shocking to you that the folks who post here might be more likely than not to be supportive of the company who owns the website that hosts this forum? Just checking.
<< <i>I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic...
There you go again. You are hurting my feelings.
others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies.
BTW, have you noticed who owns this website? Is it shocking to you that the folks who post here might be more likely than not to be supportive of the company who owns the website that hosts this forum? Just checking.
So sorry RYK but peeps who throw money away do make me chuckle
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>Wouldn't it be funny if you took a coin, put it into a PCGS holder, and it got better....then you took it and put it into an NCC holder....and it got worse ?
Based upon the relative clarities of their respective plastic, IMO that is exactly what APPEARS to happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic...
There you go again. You are hurting my feelings.
others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies.
BTW, have you noticed who owns this website? Is it shocking to you that the folks who post here might be more likely than not to be supportive of the company who owns the website that hosts this forum? Just checking.
So sorry RYK but peeps who throw money away do make me chuckle
"Throwing money away" is a very relative and judgmental, and I would look at your registry sets and say, "Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house." Anyone who thinks that he or she is doing it the right way and that those who do it differently are wrong needs to stop taking himself too seriously.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>Wouldn't it be funny if you took a coin, put it into a PCGS holder, and it got better....then you took it and put it into an NCC holder....and it got worse ?
Based upon the relative clarities of their respective plastic, IMO that is exactly what APPEARS to happen. >>
Oh, I disagree...the clarity of the NGC plastic is really quite superb
<< <i>Ryk, I thought you were done posting in this thread? >>
I did not say that and please do not put words in my mouth.
<< <i>
This will (hopefully) be the last thing I ever say on the matter. >>
Ok my mistake. Here is what you said.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>
This will (hopefully) be the last thing I ever say on the matter. >>
Ok my mistake. Here is what you said. >>
Yes, I am not speaking on the PCGS vs. NGC, CAC vs, no CAC, etc, matters.
When a collector disses other collectors for doing things in a way that he does not approve, especially if it is my way, I will be speaking up...that is, if I have your permission.
Edit: Oh, yeah, this is not the CAC forum, so I do not need your permission.
<< <i>
<< <i>I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic...
There you go again. You are hurting my feelings.
others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies.
BTW, have you noticed who owns this website? Is it shocking to you that the folks who post here might be more likely than not to be supportive of the company who owns the website that hosts this forum? Just checking.
So sorry RYK but peeps who throw money away do make me chuckle
You have a Decent Lincoln set and you walk the walk with a mixture of NGC and pcgs coins. Just one question, why is everyone of your key dates in PCGS plastic? It's easy to buy cheap NGC common dates at a discount that fit the bill but it takes stones to buy key dates that won't resale well.
Maybe you believe what you are talking about and its a coincidence your 1909s VDB, 1914d, 1926s RB ect are all in pcgs plastic. Or maybe it speaks louder than your argument. Who knows
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I really do laugh when people come on here and state that thay have to cross and will accept huge downside losses just to have a coin in a certain plastic...
There you go again. You are hurting my feelings.
others have had some bad experiances in the past when attempting crosses. These experiances and biases get spread by word of mouth and bang one company is now not as good when in fact its just an opinion, grading is totally subjective and this has been proven time and time again with countless submissions where coins have changed by one or two points in either direction with both companies.
BTW, have you noticed who owns this website? Is it shocking to you that the folks who post here might be more likely than not to be supportive of the company who owns the website that hosts this forum? Just checking.
So sorry RYK but peeps who throw money away do make me chuckle
"Throwing money away" is a very relative and judgmental, and I would look at your registry sets and say, "Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house." Anyone who thinks that he or she is doing it the right way and that those who do it differently are wrong needs to stop taking himself too seriously.
Ouce that hurts
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
<< <i>You have a Decent Lincoln set and you walk the walk with a mixture of NGC and pcgs coins. Just one question, why is everyone of your key dates in PCGS plastic? It's easy to buy cheap NGC common dates at a discount that fit the bill but it takes stones to buy key dates that won't resale well.
Maybe you believe what you are talking about and its a coincidence your 1909s VDB, 1914d, 1926s RB ect are all in pcgs plastic. Or maybe it speaks louder than your argument. Who knows >>
Thank you its a fun set and someday I may finally finish it. To answer your question it was pure chance, as I have said many times I buy the coin not just the holder, those key dates you pointed out are in PCGS holders and other than the 14-D I really like those coins. The 14-d is a dog and was part of my tutition
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Eric
<< <i>So I can buy near identical coins cheaper in NGC holders. i'll take that path... >>
And you'll be pissed off when you eventually sell them. I can almost guarantee you that the lesser price will be well in excess of what you think you "saved".
Don't take my word for it...I've only seen it happen hundreds of times. Sellers at auctions with big NGC coins sitting with looks on their faces like their dog just got hit by a car. Reality has no sympathy.
I think you need to bone up on SG's "Pursuit of the absolutely BEST coin for the grade" theory....I referred to it as 'lateral upgrading'. Even fractionally better coins will increase the desirabilty quite a bit.
You save a few bucks and you get what you pay for...a coin that no one will take a second glance at. Pay 10% more for a spectacular coin for the grade and watch if it brings 25% more...it happens quite frequently with better coins. I might know.
WS
You let your heirs sell them.
<< <i>You save a few bucks and you get what you pay for...a coin that no one will take a second glance at. >>
Wow!!! I'm surprised that NGC is even still in business.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>You save a few bucks and you get what you pay for...a coin that no one will take a second glance at. >>
Wow!!! I'm surprised that NGC is even still in business. >>
Well, not everyone can afford to shop at Bloomingdale's...