1820 DIME - will pcgs ever cross this?

EastonCollection · February 17, 2013 5:26AM

Here's the scoop- Saw this CBD in an auction several years ago in a NGC62 that had a gold cac. Lost it in auction. Several months later it reappeared in a NGC64 holder and I won the lot!
I tried only once to cross this coin to pcgs but pcgs said it was artificially toned. While no one knows for sure, I would find it hard to believe that CAC would gold sticker this coin if AT.
I love the coin but would like to have it in a pcgs holder. 2 Questions - is it artificially toned in your opinion? the best way to get the coin in a pcgs holder (I don't want it in a genuine holder).
Love to hear from the message board folks!

STONE · February 17, 2013 5:29AM

Hard to tell.

It could have been dipped and has since received secondary toning.

Someday it may cross; you never know when one set of grades will say 'yeh' or 'ney'

Pokermandude · February 17, 2013 5:33AM

Looks NT to me.

USMoneylover · February 17, 2013 5:37AM

I think it's a nice looking coin. Personally my approach would depend how much I believed in the coin. How long has it been since you tried to cross it?

BillJones · February 17, 2013 5:37AM

It is hard to tell, but I would say that the coin is either, AT or it was dipped some time ago and re-toned to this color. It is an attractive coin, but the toning is not totally convincing because the colors seem to be a little too "bright" to me and they are definitely not 192 years old.

Here is similarly toned coin, which I like. The toning on this one is more convincing, but I would say that it is not 180 years old. Since I don't do the crossing thing I'd never try to do it, but I'd say it's less than 50-50 that PCGS would cross it. NGC graded this one MS-65 which is the proper grade for the lack of wear and very low level of other impairments.

EastonCollection · February 17, 2013 5:43AM

I only tried once to cross (a couple of months ago) and several old time dealers thought it was album toning not AT. I saw some bust quarters with similiar toning from albums but I am not sure if it was AT.

Unknown · February 17, 2013 5:44AM

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EastonCollection · February 17, 2013 5:45AM

PS - BJ - I really like that 1832. While that date is somewhat common for CBDs, I still can't find one that I would fit my set.

EastonCollection · February 17, 2013 5:47AM

Realone - So, should I get I submit it to JA again( currently without a bean sticker) and then resubmit to pcgs?

BillJones · February 17, 2013 6:17AM

<< This is typical of pCGS when it comes to highly toned coins. JA is an expert, he knows at vs nt. You don't know how many toned ngc coins that i have that pcgs won't cross for one reason or another. >>

I believe that during JA's time at NGC that he certified a lot of toned coins. That did not sit well with some sigments of the market which resulted in some lower NGC Blue Sheet (sight unseen) bids.

Frankly I think that JA likes toners a bit better than I do, but I also don't agree with the PCGS approach to them which on the less than supportive side when they are NT or "NT now" from the natural toning that forms after a coin has been dipped.

Unknown · February 17, 2013 6:20AM

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BillJones · February 17, 2013 6:25AM

<< Look as far as I am concerned NGC has become the new ANACS, in looseness. PCGS is the more conservative of the two, no question, but the way PCGS trats highly toned pieces they are basically rewarding lighter coins, jsut the way DH likes them to be, check his website out. >>

I would not go that far. I think that cracks-outs and cross-over have distorted the NGC population. If an NGC graded coin is nice there seem to be multitudes of people that are out to put it in a PCGS holder.

Boosibri · February 17, 2013 6:34AM

<< Look as far as I am concerned NGC has become the new ANACS, in looseness. PCGS is the more conservative of the two, no question, but the way PCGS trats highly toned pieces they are basically rewarding lighter coins, jsut the way DH likes them to be, check his website out. >>

As a collector of original gold I find PCGS to be much tougher on dirty and original pieces. It's unfortunate that they favor brighter pieces in my opinion as it creates an incentive to dip great original pieces. Maybe my experiences differ from the group.

stman · February 17, 2013 6:35AM

<< This is typical of pCGS when it comes to highly toned coins. JA is an expert, he knows at vs nt. You don't know how many toned ngc coins that i have that pcgs won't cross for one reason or another. >>

No opinion on the OP coin. Agree JA is an expert. And so is PCGS.

BustCuds · February 17, 2013 6:36AM

Looks like been dipped sometime ago and has retoned...colors alittle too bright for the age.

Might cross on a good day

coinguy1989 · February 17, 2013 6:46AM

How do you know the DNC status was because of the toning and not the grade?
What minimum grade did you specify?

Unknown · February 17, 2013 6:48AM

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Unknown · February 17, 2013 6:49AM

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Broadstruck · February 17, 2013 6:52AM

<< Here's the scoop- Saw this CBD in an auction several years ago in a NGC62 that had a gold cac. Lost it in auction. Several months later it reappeared in a NGC64 holder and I won the lot!
I tried only once to cross this coin to pcgs but pcgs said it was artificially toned. While no one knows for sure, I would find it hard to believe that CAC would gold sticker this coin if AT.
I love the coin but would like to have it in a pcgs holder. 2 Questions - is it artificially toned in your opinion? the best way to get the coin in a pcgs holder (I don't want it in a genuine holder).
Love to hear from the message board folks! >>

I'm just looking at this now and although it's gone from NGC MS62 Gold CAC to NGC MS64...

Sorry to say but based on the pics I just do not see this as a Uncirculated example

EastonCollection · February 17, 2013 6:53AM

I must admit that I am very inexperienced with submitting coins for grading and haven't submitted that many in the past. I submitted this one to cross over at any grade as long as it grades. PCGS indicated that they wouldnt cross it as it felt AT.

lcoopie · February 17, 2013 6:58AM

if you love the coin
leave it be

roadrunner · February 17, 2013 7:03AM

I think the coin is entombed as a MS64 as it has high point rub and the luster looks less than stunning. The toning doesn't even factor into those 2 discussion points which to me
are more limiting. As a MS62 it had potential upside.

Imo the odds of PCGS crossing such a coin as a MS64 is <10%. And that may be generous. I have plenty of experience with such coins out of my own collection and doubt
it could ever be crossed no matter how many times you submit it. The overall look of the coin is more 62/63 than it is 64/65. A coin worth of crossing to 64 ought to have
the general look of a 65 coin but fall a bit short on minor marks, minor strike weakness, or minute rub. This coin has both some high pt rub and striking issues. The mottled
or blotchy toning look is not one that PCGS likes. It sort of suggests that something was done to the coin, even if just a stronger dipping. This coin was no better than MS62
during the 1986-1990 coin market. Unfortunately, that doesn't easily translate to what it should be today. JA's gold sticker on this coin was probably thinking he was ok with it as
a MS63. I'd be very surprised if this coin stickered as a MS64. As a MS62 it really didn't matter if the coin was AT or not. It was easily marketable as a 62/63. for each grade
higher, the possibility of being AT makes much more % difference in the price. Not really a big deal at the 62 level imo. I've seen this type of toning on unc seated coins.

DIMEMAN · February 17, 2013 7:06AM

The sticker won't mean squat to PCGS or me for that matter.

That is a nice coin and should cross, but at what grade? ngc usually grades at least 1 point too high.

Broadstruck · February 17, 2013 7:09AM

<< I think the coin is entombed as a MS64 as it has high point rub and the luster looks less than stunning. The toning doesn't even factor into those 2 discussion points which to me
are more limiting. As a MS62 it had potential upside.

Imo the odds of PCGS crossing such a coin as a MS64 is <10%. And that may be generous. I have plenty of experience with such coins out of my own collection and doubt
it could ever be crossed no matter how many times you submit it. The overall look of the coin is more 62/63 than it is 64/65. A coin worth of crossing to 64 ought to have
the general look of a 65 coin but fall a bit short on minor marks, minor strike weakness, or minute rub. This coin has both some high pt rub and striking issues. The mottled
or blotchy toning look is not one that PCGS likes. It sort of suggests that something was done to the coin, even if just a stronger dipping. This coin was no better than MS62
during the 1986-1990 coin market. Unfortunately, that doesn't easily translate to what it should be today. JA's gold sticker on this coin was probably thinking he was ok with it as
a MS63. I'd be very surprised if this coin stickered as a MS64. >>

I'm a bit confused now as isn't a MS64 with high point rub and less stunning luster a AU

EastonCollection · February 17, 2013 7:14AM

Thanks Dimeman - thanks - I grade the coin as a 62 to 63 and would be very happy having pcgs grade is 62/63.

jom · February 17, 2013 7:15AM

The dime might very well be buried at MS64 (or even at MS62) but there is no way that is "AT". I don't believe "dipped and retoned" fits that definition, btw.

<< 

<< This is typical of pCGS when it comes to highly toned coins. JA is an expert, he knows at vs nt. You don't know how many toned ngc coins that i have that pcgs won't cross for one reason or another. >>

No opinion on the OP coin. Agree JA is an expert. And so is PCGS. >>

Absolutely agree. This just shows what grading is and ALWAYS has been: an opinion. No more no less.

jom

jom · February 17, 2013 7:17AM

<< Thanks Dimeman - thanks - I grade the coin as a 62 to 63 and would be very happy having pcgs grade is 62/63. >>

Yes, it is a very nice coin. I looked it up and the whole slab photo gives a far better account of what it really looks like (I'll bet) than the photo you posted.

jom

roadrunner · February 17, 2013 7:22AM

<< I'm a bit confused now as isn't a MS64 with high point rub and less stunning luster a AU

>>

One shouldn't be confused if they collect mint state bust coinage. Coins with rub and less than full luster routinely end up in MS64, and even MS65 holders.
The 63's and 64's with high point rub outnumber those without rub. Luster is usually not stunning at the 63-64 level. In fact it often isn't all that stunning at the 65
level unless you like bright white dipped bust coins. Bust dimes aren't graded like Barber or Merc dimes. This isn't my grading system, only the one that the market
has us use. In the 1970's and first half of the 1980's I would have only paid AU+ money for such a bust coin....maybe stretch to MS60 if the coin was extra sharp or had nearly
full field luster. Technical vs. market grading of "MS" bust coins are 2 entirely different topics. A similar comparison would be EAC grading vs. TPG on early coppers. No comparison.
I do agree that multiple standards makes things confusing to those who have recently entered the field. If every 19th century silver coin were graded like a Morgan silver dollar, we'd
all be on the same page at the same time. But there also would be 80-90% less "unc" bust coins in existance.

silverpop · February 17, 2013 7:35AM

questionable color is what this coin has a 90% of getting if sent to PCGS somehow i doubt they would see this coin as NT

Unknown · February 17, 2013 7:36AM

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stman · February 17, 2013 7:59AM

I don't feel it will matter if you got it stickered then sent it to PCGS again. It seems you really went after this coin so if it were me I'd enjoy it for what it is, or dump it. Or, if you really believe in the coin crack that baby out and let the chips fall where they fall. Whenever we buy these coins with colors we take a chance on whether one service will like it as much as the other. Personally I don't play all those games. Getting folks to agree on grade is tough enough, add some color and it's even tougher to get folks to agree. Good luck on whatever you choose to do.

EastonCollection · February 17, 2013 8:15AM

To all - I thank you for all your great comments - I posted this coin because I never saw a CBD with toning like this one. I figure it probably it isn't AT as JA sticked this coin with a gold seal of approval adn NGC graded it twice. One never knows! This clearly makes for a very interesting thread for a Sunday afternoon. Some more history is the coin was auctioned off with Bowers in Sept 2008(lot199) and the coin sold for about $4700 - NGC62 w/gold cac with the lot description below-

A refreshingly original example, this coin exhibits colorful peripheral toning in vivid cobalt-blue, hot-pink and orange-russet shades. The centers are much lighter with blended golden-silver and "old-silver" highlights. Thick satin luster, a sharply executed strike and overall smooth-looking surfaces combine to give this coin the appearance of a Choice Mint State grade. Worthy of a strong bid!

I lost the coin in that auction. In January 2009, at the FUN auction it reappeared as a NGC64 (non sticker)with the following description -

1820 10C Medium 0 MS64 NGC. JR-11, R.3. Dramatically toned in peach, straw-gold, cobalt-blue, and ruby-red. A powerfully struck and lustrous near-Gem with exemplary luster and no significant marks. The Guide Book lists only Large 0 and Small 0 varieties, but per the JR reference, a majority of the die marriages are Medium 0

I was the successful bidder at a price lower than the previous bidder or consignor. In viewing the coin in hand, it does look like a 62 or 63 grade IMHO. In looking at other JR-11s in mint state, I feel the strike is average. Whether the coin is naturally toned or not, I really can't tell except I never saw a CBD with this type of toning. I did see large size bust quarters and bust halves with dramatic toning like this dime.

In my humble opinion - Isn't coin collecting fun - I love it and plan on doing it for the rest of my life!

EastonCollection · February 17, 2013 8:17AM

Oh- BTW - I am planning on holding the coin for a long time- Thats why I bought it in the first place!

STONE · February 17, 2013 8:22AM

<< Oh- BTW - I am planning on holding the coin for a long time- Thats why I bought it in the first place! >>

Billet7 · February 17, 2013 1:07PM

Great thread, nice coin.

Sunshine Rare Coins · February 18, 2013 2:43AM

I'm not sure it would cross, but that looks like a awesome coin!

LoveMyLiberty · February 18, 2013 7:10AM

Here is the slab image of your coin, that's not so garish.

Also, while at Heritage, I noticed a number of 1820 JR-11 dimes with a similar look to yours.
Here's one that sold last month, an MS-63, for $9,400.

Unknown · February 18, 2013 7:19AM

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LoveMyLiberty · February 18, 2013 7:24AM

Al, read it again.

Unknown · February 18, 2013 7:34AM

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Kove · February 18, 2013 7:42AM

Looking at the way the color surrounds or "rings" the stars, date, and bust but doesn't go right up to the edge, I can see why PCGS would be a little hesitant about the toning. My personal guess would be that finger oils had something to do with the color, and the finger oils couldn't get right up to the edges of the design elements.

The album color on Bill Jones' example goes all the way to the letters and stars ( no ring around the stars), as most long-term holder toning does.

I'm not saying this is AT, but I can see why PCGS might not want that toning in their holder.

ajman · February 18, 2013 7:51AM

I don't know if it means much coming from the peanut gallery, but based on LoveMyLiberty's photo posted I think it's a fabulous coin as is and in the holder that it's in. I would've left it alone.

mozin · February 18, 2013 8:12AM

A NGC 62 with Gold CAC sticker tells me that John A believes the coin to be two grades higher, BUT he does not say that this coin in a MS 64 holder will earn the Green CAC sticker. If you want it in a PCGS holder, accept a 63 grade. A PCGS 63 might actually be worth more money than the NGC 64, considering the usual price difference in the Bust Series. Personally, and I specialize in the Bust Series coinage, I would rather have the PCGS 63 than the NGC 64 any day.

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stman · February 18, 2013 8:33AM

<< A NGC 62 with Gold CAC sticker tells me that John A believes the coin to be two grades higher, BUT he does not say that this coin in a MS 64 holder will earn the Green CAC sticker. If you want it in a PCGS holder, accept a 63 grade. A PCGS 63 might actually be worth more money than the NGC 64, considering the usual price difference in the Bust Series. Personally, and I specialize in the Bust Series coinage, I would rather have the PCGS 63 than the NGC 64 any day. >>

Mozin, he tried to cross at any grade. Here is part of the quote the op wrote.......

<< I submitted this one to cross over at any grade as long as it grades. PCGS indicated that they wouldnt cross it as it felt AT. >>

mozin · February 18, 2013 11:22AM

Whoops stman, I missed that tiny post between all the others.

EastonCollection · February 18, 2013 1:15PM

Mozin - I did try to get it in a pcgs holder at any grade. But pcgs didn't grade. Personally, if pcgs grades it 62 or 63 great. If not, then that's too bad but no loss to me - I got the coin. Its an amazing looking coin for a large size CBD. I may reach out to Bowers that originally auctioned off the coin back in 08 to see if their records show who the consignor was - collector, dealer or estate. Personally, I love this JR-11 and its a relatively tough not vrey tough variety to locate in mint state.

EastonCollection · February 18, 2013 1:25PM

Hey LoveMyLiberty - I like that JR-11 that you posted. One detail on the large size bust dimes that I look for is the dimple in the middle of the obverse. In the one you pictured that dimple is very prominent and very sharp. I tend to find sharp dimples on ms65s or better. If I ever find a sharp dimple on a lower MS CBD then I buying it unless the coin is white.
After reading everyones' posts - I still think that coin collectiing is so much fun!

MacCrimmon · February 18, 2013 1:32PM

The OP image is very reminiscent of coins I've seen/known of that were essentially brilliant (light golden tone) before being placed into those 2x2 cotton pouches and then slipped into a 2x2 Kraft (sulfur content) envelope.............Then 10+ years down the road you may, or may not see these colors.

mozin · February 18, 2013 3:01PM

If you were willing to cross to PCGS at any grade before, I certainly would try it at least once again.

roadrunner · February 19, 2013 4:46AM

<< A NGC 62 with Gold CAC sticker tells me that John A believes the coin to be two grades higher, BUT he does not say that this coin in a MS 64 holder will earn the Green CAC sticker. If you want it in a PCGS holder, accept a 63 grade. A PCGS 63 might actually be worth more money than the NGC 64, considering the usual price difference in the Bust Series. Personally, and I specialize in the Bust Series coinage, I would rather have the PCGS 63 than the NGC 64 any day. >>

It was my understanding that a gold bean means this coin in a 62 holder was perceived as a MS63.4 or higher. How does that imply a MS64 grade?
The coin has remnants of very dark encrustations in the devices. So at one time the coin was probably blue/charcoal in color.

1820 DIME - will pcgs ever cross this?

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