What would you do?

coindeuce · February 10, 2013 6:29AM

Going forward, if you knew after the fact, that a Proof type coin (certified by PCGS) which you sold to another dealer was going to be cracked out and resubmitted as a Business Strike, on the chance that a TPGS might erroneously re-designate it as a business strike which has triple the market value of a Proof? My only consideration so far has been to politely decline to sell to this party any more.

Edited to add a title and text after an errant strike of the Enter key.

crypto79 · February 10, 2013 6:29AM

I always try to do whats right while not trying to predict the future. Keeping it so you can sleep at night in life is hard enough, try not to extend the worrying 1-2 or more degrees of separation.

coindeuce · February 12, 2013 11:42AM

resuscitation.

Caution: this may have some relevance to a recent market report.

RYK · February 12, 2013 12:10PM

I agree with crypto.

There is only so much that you can control. So far as you have done the right thing, and have principles in place to continue to do so, what more can you do?

A while back, a dealer told me he sold an expensive coin to a dealer, one that would likely dip, strip, and upgrade it to make more money. It was a coin he had in inventory for quite some time, and there were no collector buyers. Should he have not sold the coin to the upgraded? Kept it forever?

ebaybuyer · February 12, 2013 12:16PM

i dont know that i would fault the buyer for trying to get it holdered as a business strike, i would fault the TPG for not knowing the difference. now if the dealer bought it from you as a proof, cracked it out and peddled it as a business strike, i would question his ethics. but if it comes back as a business strike, and he sells it as such... dont hate the player, hate the game

CircOnly · February 12, 2013 12:16PM

I understand the feeling. The problem is, you aren't going to save the hobby by stopping the deal. Sell it and move on. If the said buyer gets his designation, the blood is not on your hands.

Coinosaurus · February 12, 2013 12:18PM

You could sell that coin, and then get your coin buddie to "remind" everyone on the Forum of the correct diagnostics. You wouldn't want to get in trouble or anything

TwoSides2aCoin · February 12, 2013 12:21PM

I saw a lovely coin in an old ANA holder in NE. City this past weekend. I do not wish to divulge the characteristics or findings publicly because the buyer is a friend and he posts here once in a while. I really wish he would share, though.

His "buy" would fit here perfectly, and maybe shed a different light.

ebaybuyer · February 12, 2013 12:29PM

makes me wonder what TPG is likely to erroneously slab a proof coin as a business strike, i mean we as collectors know the diagnostics.. dont the TPG's have access to the same information that us collectors do ?

Coinosaurus · February 12, 2013 12:43PM

<< makes me wonder what TPG is likely to erroneously slab a proof coin as a business strike, i mean we as collectors know the diagnostics.. dont the TPG's have access to the same information that us collectors do ? >>

They do, and they are darn smart, but they do make mistakes. And this sounds like one they've made a few times in a row, and someone has picked up on a pattern.....

ebaybuyer · February 12, 2013 12:54PM

if a proof was slabbed as a business strike.. and it was brought to the attention of the TPG would they buy it back or ??

coindeuce · February 12, 2013 1:21PM

<< if a proof was slabbed as a business strike.. and it was brought to the attention of the TPG would they buy it back or ?? >>

Any dealer who is crafty enough to be successful at taking advantage of a TPG in this way, is certainly going to find a way to place it with a customer who won't know enough to catch the trick. It could go undetected for a generation. In the case I cited above, I am quite certain this is what motivated the buy from me. The only other remotely possible motive could have been a crackout for an attempt at an upgrade. Very remote in this instance, since the spread in grade from proof to business strike is an extremely stronger incentive for a try than the spread for a one point upgrade as a Proof.

savoyspecial · February 12, 2013 1:39PM

>>My only consideration so far has been to politely decline to sell to this party any more. >>

I vote to stay the course on this idea.....I would also add that you might want to stop BUYING from this party as well

PerryHall · February 12, 2013 10:14PM

<< A while back, a dealer told me he sold an expensive coin to a dealer, one that would likely dip, strip, and upgrade it to make more money. It was a coin he had in inventory for quite some time, and there were no collector buyers. Should he have not sold the coin to the upgraded? Kept it forever? >>

Bingo! Not every original coin has attractive toning. Those that only want original coins usually don't want to buy a coin with ugly toning yet they will criticise a dealer that dips such a coin to make it saleable. I see a little hypocracy here.

lcoopie · February 13, 2013 3:21AM

sell it to him at a strong premium

jimbux61 · February 13, 2013 3:42AM

I don't care what someone does with anything I sell. If I sell a house, I don't care if they demolish it. If I sell a car, I don't care if they enter it in a demolition derby. Why would I care what anyone did with a coin I sold them? They could put it in circulation if they wanted, once they own it.

That's my 2 cents.

coindeuce · February 13, 2013 5:43AM

<< I don't care what someone does with anything I sell. If I sell a house, I don't care if they demolish it. If I sell a car, I don't care if they enter it in a demolition derby. Why would I care what anyone did with a coin I sold them? They could put it in circulation if they wanted, once they own it.

That's my 2 cents. >>

And would you feel any different if you were the one on the receiving end of a scheme of this nature?

s4ny · February 13, 2013 6:30AM

There is a lot of supposition here. Somebody sells the proof coin and then the buyer is able to get a
reputable TPGS to grade it as a business strike. Assumes the graders will not know the difference. I think
they will.

There must be a great price difference. Usually the proofs are more valuable, so it must be something
modern like a $5 Jackie Robinson. But, the Jackie proofs are obviously proofs. There are some
proof only years on the Qtr Eagle. Somewhere in the 1840s.

JustMe2 · February 13, 2013 6:46AM

An example that may be hard to tell apart is the 1880 nickel as I believe that the same dies where used for both the proof and circulated coins. An MS65 sold for $74750 but a PR65 sells for around $650. It should be noted that there are more than one set of dies used to produce the circulated coins and not all of the dies where used to create proof coins.

Elcontador · February 13, 2013 6:59AM

<< An example that may be hard to tell apart is the 1880 nickel as I believe that the same dies where used for both the proof and circulated coins. An MS65 sold for $74750 but a PR65 sells for around $650. It should be noted that there are more than one set of dies used to produce the circulated coins and not all of the dies where used to create proof coins. >>

The situation is the same re the 1881 nickel, though I'm not sure the price spread is that extreme. In this situation, the TPGs would err on the side that the coin was a PF, not a business strike. I imagine one would have to speak with someone at the TPG and convince him / her that the coin at issue was in fact a business strike, due to the difference in value of the two coins.

In a situation like this where it is hard to differentiate the two, I can't imagine any TPG giving someone a 'gift' under these circumstances.

RYK · February 13, 2013 7:03AM

<< An example that may be hard to tell apart is the 1880 nickel as I believe that the same dies where used for both the proof and circulated coins. An MS65 sold for $74750 but a PR65 sells for around $650. It should be noted that there are more than one set of dies used to produce the circulated coins and not all of the dies where used to create proof coins. >>

That is exactly the example that came to mind when I read the OP.

BillJones · February 13, 2013 7:07AM

I don't see what the problem is. Let the grading service make that determination. If they go to "Elmer's back ally, third world grading service" to get the piece changed from Proof to Mint State, no one will take it seriously. If one of the 'big two" says it's Mint State, then who is to say that that the professional grader is absolutely wrong?

There are a number of very low mintage 19th century coins that are hard to discern between Proof and Unc. The situation get murkier when Proof dies were used to make business strike coins. I really don't see a huge moral dilemma here. You really can't control what people do with their chattel property after you sell it to them. Real Estate can be a different story with covenants.

halfhunter · February 13, 2013 10:48AM

Who's to say that the coin isn't actually a business strike and that the TPG erred on the side of caution and slabbed it a proof ? ! ? !

HH

DoubleEagle59 · February 13, 2013 10:52AM

<< i dont know that i would fault the buyer for trying to get it holdered as a business strike, i would fault the TPG for not knowing the difference. now if the dealer bought it from you as a proof, cracked it out and peddled it as a business strike, i would question his ethics. but if it comes back as a business strike, and he sells it as such... dont hate the player, hate the game >>

You kind of make sense to me.

Isn't this very similar to resubmitting for an upgrade?

What would you do?

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