New Legend Hot Topic posted. Dead horses and a Platform

Justacommeman · February 11, 2013 10:53AM

Click only once otherwise you maybe charged twice for reading this

MJ

MrEureka · February 11, 2013 11:03AM

Details, please.

Sonorandesertrat · February 11, 2013 11:05AM

Tough words, and more than a few grains of truth in that post. Still, as long as there is a chance that money can be made via doctoring, it will be with us. There will always be someone who will try to game whatever system is put into place.

Moldnut · February 11, 2013 11:07AM

I find this comment very interesting. "Last, I would make the grading services print on every coin a note if it has been conserved. Its out right deception if they do not." Im guessing that she is talking about PCGSs new service or any coin that has been sent in for spot removal or even a straight graded dipped coin??

MrEureka · February 11, 2013 11:10AM

Still, as long as there is a chance that money can be made via doctoring, it will be with us. There will always be someone who will try to game whatever system is put into place.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that progress cannot be made.

David Hall did that when he started PCGS.

John Albanese did that when he started CAC.

The jury is still out on The Sniffer, but there's potential there.

The game is far from over.

MsMorrisine · February 11, 2013 11:11AM

proof?

MidLifeCrisis · February 11, 2013 11:15AM

Deja Voodoo

Wabbit2313 · February 11, 2013 11:15AM

Unless you want to see millions of valuable coins lose much of their value, one best not attempt to identify a dipped coin, especially on a holder! This one action would give the impression that there is something wrong with that coin, when in reality, the coin was restored to a state that it was intended to look like.

I love toners, and own many cool ones, so I am not biased for the white coin by any means.

Coinosaurus · February 11, 2013 11:21AM

I like the part about the ANA not taking sponsorship money. How it gets replaced, and whether the ANA is locked into sponsorship contracts are big questions though.

Sonorandesertrat · February 11, 2013 11:28AM

MrEureka,
I tend to agree with you, but I have seen the problem with doctoring and fakes throughout the collectibles sector.
I'm no spring chicken, and I think that the doctoring problems associated with numismatics won't come close to being put to rest before I am.
At lot of the problem is rooted in the current practice of market grading. EACers, via net grading, have a means to deal with doctored coins and other types of problem coins.

Unknown · February 11, 2013 11:40AM

This content has been removed.

Justacommeman · February 11, 2013 11:48AM

I usually don't like to post in these threads but I will make an exception. I would like to vote her in just to shake up the status quo in the ANA if nothing else. Make things a little uncomfortable. For sure nothing will change otherwise . At least she will go down swinging at the Dr's in that position. Rattle a few cages. maybe save a few coins. Just maybe somebody one day will be able to say, "Remember that time when the ANA tried to do something meaningful? (outside of business as usual YN sponsorships, Summer School and a few Shows). Imagine if she actually succeed? I doubt she will as the deck is stacked pretty high, but I'm willing to give her a chance

MJ

EagleEye · February 11, 2013 11:51AM

I think a ANA dealer status is a good idea.

However, I think about the dealers who buy anything and everything - mostly raw coins. Do they get spanked for buying and reselling a processed coin? They don't label the coins, they just put their price on the previous owners holder.

Years ago, a group of dealers tried to form a group of numismatic advertisers that sold properly graded and non-processed coins. (that was the term back then, doctors were in hospitals). It was called NANA - National Association of Numismatic Advertisers. We found out that we couldn't easily deny membership to the ones we were fighting against. There are many legal problems hidden in the blog.

MrEureka · February 11, 2013 11:53AM

Lets immediately somehow get behind her.

My suggestion: Let's hear all of your ideas on what you would like to see Laura do if elected. Not just the goal, but the plan. The more details, the better.

bidask · February 11, 2013 12:19PM

<< I usually don't like to post in these threads but I will make an exception. I would like to vote her in just to shake up the status quo in the ANA if nothing else. Make things a little uncomfortable. For sure nothing will change otherwise . At least she will go down swinging at the Dr's in that position. Rattle a few cages. maybe save a few coins. Just maybe somebody one day will be able to say, "Remember that time when the ANA tried to do something meaningful? (outside of business as usual YN sponsorships, Summer School and a few Shows). Imagine if she actually succeed? I doubt she will as the deck is stacked pretty high, but I'm willing to give her a chance

MJ >>

i agree and I like her goals that she has been adamant about
for a long while.

Besides her company has brought the limelight to all collectors and
dealers in the coin industry with the recent 1794 $ purchase.

Her time has come to serve on the ANA board.

roadrunner · February 11, 2013 12:44PM

It's pretty clear to me the damage that stickering has done to the coin market under the cloak of cleaning it up. Yes, probably a necessary step. But one that has severely impacted the
value of coins held by average collectors (ie the majority). Additionally, identifying dipped and other less than fully original coins will just add to the momentum increasing the % of
coins that no longer are good enough. The prices of the good coins cannot be bid higher unless the total available supply of worthy coins is somehow reduced. Growing pops sort of did
that from 1990-2008. But with so many coins now graded, different mechanisms are now needed to shrink the existing pool. As I've said before, it's a numismatic market where I really
don't want to be a long term stake holder. It's veered quite a bit from the original 1986-1990 roots. I remember asking a PNG dealer mentor of mine back in the later 1980's why
so many dealers who profiteered from collectors in the "wild wild west" of 1972-1986 were members or even high ranking officers/execs in so many key numismatic organizations.
Over 30 yrs later and I haven't seen any apologies or reparations....lol. The passage of time has made many of these same guys luminaries in our hobby. Say it ain't so Joe!

I agree that the future is bright for coins....but mainly the ones worth 6 and 7 figures.....not necessarily the 99% that most everyone else plays with. The market in general will rise
with monetary inflation. However, it's the real gains that count, not the price-inflated ones. Without a doubt there is probably a bright future for a SP66 1794 dollar as there is no
available supply of them choice unc. If one tracks the gains of fairly available gem coins from 1980 or 1990, the results aren't all that impressive.

Note: growing pops made a huge number of gem coins from the 1988-1993 market way too common by the 2004-2008 market to be real participants. 3 cents nickels in gem proof 65-66 readily come to mind. Growing pops made them too common for further price rises. Any price rises that did come about where those that benefited from gradeflation (ie turning your
ogh PF65 into a PF66 or PF67). But that sort of thing didn't happen to most collectors. In other words...growing pops shrink the pool of coins that can be truly considered lower pop.
When Ellesmere first came out with their articles in the later 1980's, they consistently recognized 638 coins with a fundamental reason to increase in value. Today that list has probably
shrunk to less than 100-300. Common date Buffs and Walkers in MS65 and MS66 were probably on that list. Today it might take a MS67+ Buff and MS67 Walker to even be considered.
Probably a MS68 specimen common date in either case to be safe. But exceptions would have to be made for massively eye appealing exceptions in the 65-66 grades (again, the <1%
type of coin that is rarely seen).

Sonorandesertrat · February 11, 2013 12:49PM

1. There should be NO company 'sponsorships'. The ANA needs to remain neutral, not selling naming rights to the highest bidder.
2. I would like to see the ANA put up a freely accessible tutorial on doctored coins on its website, with lots of color images illustrating cleverly done tooling, artificial toning, etc. This would help collectors who
don't have the wherewithal to attend a summer seminar that addresses this topic.
3. While I would like to see some sort of voluntary dealer accreditation program set up by the ANA, I am certainly not convinced that this would lead to higher ethical standards.
4. Realistically, the ANA is in no position to be telling other businesses (grading firms, auction houses) how to do business. What it can do is go the extra mile to educate
consumers gratis. In the past, it has remained silent regarding a variety of issues, one reason why I left the ANA for about a decade.
5. Quit accepting ads for coin restoration in the Numismatist.

pennyannie · February 11, 2013 1:07PM

It would not even take a week before a mess would start. You see post here all the time about mis graded coins, problem coins in good holders etc. What makes you think you can do a better job of labeling a dipped/cleaned coin if you can even get the grade right.

There was just a thread here yesterday when a pcgs proof 64+ jut upgraded at the LB show to a proof cameo 66. That coin was graded in the last year or so.

You start labeling damaged/doctored coins and you may be held liable for that. She (Laura) will not post the names of the coin docs for the world to see for that very reason.

I think Laura would be great on the board, but you can only rock a boat so far by yourself. People get on city councils, school boards, hospital boards and when the rest are not on the team with you. it can just be miseable way to spend your time. She was balls to the wall to punish the person/persons posting that BS on the net and i am not sure they have found the people yet. It is far easier said than done.

still i hope she wins!!!

MrEureka · February 11, 2013 1:14PM

FWIW, I don't see how the ANA can do much good with respect to the grading game, and I'd rather see them devote their resources to other things. However, if Laura or anyone else can convince me that I'm wrong, and that the ANA can do specific things to protect the hobby from over-grading and coin doctoring, and that they can do it more effectively than the TPGs, I will happily change my mind.

Again, I would love to hear details of anyone's plan.

Zoins · February 11, 2013 4:26PM

Laura is correct in that some hobbies are more open about items that have been conserved. Collectors are more accepting of it and the openness as well in those hobbies. I'm not sure if that attitude could take hold in coins but it might be interesting if there was more openness about what has been done to coins.

northcoin · February 11, 2013 7:04PM

To tell the truth I am more concerned about the counterfeit coins flooding in from China through "mules" though have no love for those who purposely artificially tone coins either. However, when the definition of "coin doctors" can mean so many more things, including conserving and dipping as examples, then we run the risk of creating two classes of coins and coin collectors - the elitists who can pay large sums for clearly perfect coins, and all others whose coins risk being identified as valueless based upon an overly broad definition of "doctoring." Do we really want our hobby to exclude the masses by deeming only ulta expensive coins as worth collecting?

AnkurJ · February 11, 2013 7:21PM

Even if a coin was listed as being conserved by PCGS or NGC, what is stopping an individual from cracking it out and selling it raw, or sending it back through? Will PCGS/NGC know that the coin was conserved? I doubt they'd know 100% of the time.

Comics and art are restored and sold as such, I agree with that point. But some things done to conserve coins are not nearly as detectable. Frankly I don't think it would work.

Seateddime: if you feel her message is saying that CAC damaged the hobby in some way, then I feel you've misinterpreted it.

Ankur

northcoin · February 11, 2013 7:45PM

<< Even if a coin was listed as being conserved by PCGS or NGC, what is stopping an individual from cracking it out and selling it raw, or sending it back through? Will PCGS/NGC know that the coin was conserved? I doubt they'd know 100% of the time.

Comics and art are restored and sold as such, I agree with that point. But some things done to conserve coins are not nearly as detectable. Frankly I don't think it would work.

Seateddime: if you feel her message is saying that CAC damaged the hobby in some way, then I feel you've misinterpreted it.

Ankur >>

Are there two competing forces at work? On the one hand taking steps to shrink the supply of "collectable" coins and on the other hand helping to better identify the quality of the product? I guess it can be argued whether it is an intended or an unintended consequence of efforts to better identify the product which result in shrinking the supply of desirable coins to collect. So whether CAC has "damaged" the hobby is itself subject to which view one advances. Seeing CAC stickers on coins that don't even grade MS is still an oxymoron to me.

DHeath · February 11, 2013 11:15PM

The hobby seems logically segmented to me. Most collectors don't care enough about the ANA or the "hobby" to get heavily involved. The ones who do are those whose benefit from segmenting collectible coins into original and rare classic coins and everything else. Since I don't collect original and rare classic coins, I am confident their actions will help keep prices down and availability high for the coins I'm interested in.

astrorat · February 12, 2013 12:12AM

Same rant, different day. The puffery is getting old. What I found particularly amusing was ...

"If I win a seat on the ANA board, I will make a small part of the ANA into a consumer protection/advocy group that WILL have razor sharp teeth."
Sure the teeth will be razor sharp, just made of clay. Until the ANA is given meaningful enforcement capacity, it's all just words. The worst thing the ANA can do is remove a member. Oooohhh ... I am sure the coin docs are just trembling over that! Get the ANA and law enforcement together and then there is a chance for the ANA to make a real difference. Until then, it's all rhetoric.

"Should a dealer be caught knowingly doing wrong-they would be severly punished after one warning-no exceptions."
Do it again and we'll ... we'll ... remove your membership! Take that, you bad little coin doc! What can the ANA do except affect it's own environment? Want to affect real change? Get the ANA working with the FTC ... whoops ... that was brought up before and "dealers" had a fit thinking that the government may get involved. Until the ANA has enforcement, they will always be a flaccid hobby organization. Great with education ... hell, awesome with education, but weak on meaningful oversight within the multi-billion dollar numismatic industry.

"Also, I would NOT allow the ANA to accept ANY money for sponsorship from ANY grading service or coin business."
This was so funny I almost spit out my coffee. Laura clearly has no idea about how the ANA is sustained. Raising dues by 5% causes people to go into a panic. Eliminating sponsorship will cause mass seizures.

"Basically, I would create a powerful comittee that would hold people responsible." And do what ... wag a finger extra hard at them? You can't hold people responsible until they are accountable to you. Other than with membership, the ANA has no standing.

I hope Laura does win a seat on the Board. It will be nice to see her educated about a non-profit, educational organization and learn if her rhetoric can be turned into meaningful action. She has my vote.

ambro51 · February 12, 2013 12:14AM

The audio transcript is wild. Roseann Barr sort of "yells" it.

nwcoast · February 12, 2013 12:27AM

<< To tell the truth I am more concerned about the counterfeit coins flooding in from China through "mules" though have no love for those who purposely artificially tone coins either. However, when the definition of "coin doctors" can mean so many more things, including conserving and dipping as examples, then we run the risk of creating two classes of coins and coin collectors - the elitists who can pay large sums for clearly perfect coins, and all others whose coins risk being identified as valueless based upon an overly broad definition of "doctoring." Do we really want our hobby to exclude the masses by deeming only ulta expensive coins as worth collecting? >>

+1 and well put!!

TAMU15 · February 12, 2013 12:53AM

<< Same rant, different day. The puffery is getting old. What I found particularly amusing was ...

"If I win a seat on the ANA board, I will make a small part of the ANA into a consumer protection/advocy group that WILL have razor sharp teeth."
Sure the teeth will be razor sharp, just made of clay. Until the ANA is given meaningful enforcement capacity, it's all just words. The worst thing the ANA can do is remove a member. Oooohhh ... I am sure the coin docs are just trembling over that! Get the ANA and law enforcement together and then there is a chance for the ANA to make a real difference. Until then, it's all rhetoric.

"Should a dealer be caught knowingly doing wrong-they would be severly punished after one warning-no exceptions."
Do it again and we'll ... we'll ... remove your membership! Take that, you bad little coin doc! What can the ANA do except affect it's own environment? Want to affect real change? Get the ANA working with the FTC ... whoops ... that was brought up before and "dealers" had a fit thinking that the government may get involved. Until the ANA has enforcement, they will always be a flaccid hobby organization. Great with education ... hell, awesome with education, but weak on meaningful oversight within the multi-billion dollar numismatic industry.

"Also, I would NOT allow the ANA to accept ANY money for sponsorship from ANY grading service or coin business."

This was so funny I almost spit out my coffee. Laura clearly has no idea about how the ANA is sustained. Raising dues by 5% causes people to go into a panic. Eliminating sponsorship will cause mass seizures.

"Basically, I would create a powerful comittee that would hold people responsible." And do what ... wag a finger extra hard at them? You can't hold people responsible until they are accountable to you. Other than with membership, the ANA has no standing.

I hope Laura does win a seat on the Board. It will be nice to see her educated about a non-profit, educational organization and learn if her rhetoric can be turned into meaningful action. She has my vote. >>

Totally agree with this.

SmEagle1795 · February 12, 2013 12:56AM

I can see the value in three tiers: obviously messed with, somewhat messed with, and not messed with, but it creates a very complex dimension to grading. To do this correctly, one would need a numeric grade for a coin's details and a numeric grade for its level of originality.

It could help to take a page out of what NGC does for Ancients - a grade (XF), a Strike value (1-5), and a Surface value (1-5), but the standards required to establish this level of granularity would be quite a large task.

BillJones · February 12, 2013 1:04AM

<< To tell the truth I am more concerned about the counterfeit coins flooding in from China through "mules" though have no love for those who purposely artificially tone coins either. However, when the definition of "coin doctors" can mean so many more things, including conserving and dipping as examples, then we run the risk of creating two classes of coins and coin collectors - the elitists who can pay large sums for clearly perfect coins, and all others whose coins risk being identified as valueless based upon an overly broad definition of "doctoring." Do we really want our hobby to exclude the masses by deeming only ulta expensive coins as worth collecting? >>

+2

You make a very valid point. There is a collector ATS who wants to have EVERY coin that has been dipped to be labeled as such. These "marks of Cain" would forever consign these coins to the economic basements of the numismatic market for no good reason. Even John Albanese says that a properly dipped coin is still worthy of a CAC sticker, and yet there is an element of purists who want to ruin the market for these coins permanently.

The trouble is some of the coins that these guys think are "original" were dipped or lightly cleaned many years ago and have since re-toned naturally or with a little numismatic help by placing them in a toning envelope or out in the atmosphere. Very few, very old (100 years +) have not had something done to them over that length of time. And many of them NEEDED to have some sort of conservation done to them to make them presentable or even preserve them.

It's been pointed out that EAC grading acknowledges that something has been done a coin and takes it into account. It must also be noted that EAC collectors don't condemn and totally reject coins that have had something done to them the way the purists do. They realize that pure copper or what passed for pure copper during the early days of the U.S. mint is a reactive metal, and something had to be done somewhere down the line to preserve the coin.

My view of some purists is that a lot of their "consumer protection" crusade is self-serving. By invalidating the value of other people's collections, they think that they are going to enhance the value of what they own. To me that is just plain wrong. If you want to promote the merits of what you like to collect, that's fine. But don't expect to foul someone else's property and have them thank you for it. They are going to respond, and the response will be acrimonious.

I dislike the practices of coin doctors who are out to deceive people, but I recognize that darn few coins are naturally "perfect." Some people are trying to make the words "market acceptable" sound dirty, but if there are no "market acceptable" coins, other than the "perfect" ones, there is going to be darn little for the rest of us to collect.

bidask · February 12, 2013 1:09AM

<< To tell the truth I am more concerned about the counterfeit coins flooding in from China through "mules" though have no love for those who purposely artificially tone coins either. However, when the definition of "coin doctors" can mean so many more things, including conserving and dipping as examples, then we run the risk of creating two classes of coins and coin collectors - the elitists who can pay large sums for clearly perfect coins, and all others whose coins risk being identified as valueless based upon an overly broad definition of "doctoring." Do we really want our hobby to exclude the masses by deeming only ulta expensive coins as worth collecting? >>

Why do you use words like 'elitist' and 'masses' and 'classes'?

Who says coins are valueless based on some interpretation of doctoring?

Why do you use words like 'exclude' ? Who deems only ultra expensive coins are worth collecting?

You?

That kind of thinking is wrong!

Your remarks relegate the hobby to some sort of measurement of economic politics or social status with the words you use.

People can and do collect what they want. The hobby is suppose to be fun. At the shows I attend I always see coins trading of all conditions ........dipped, polished, original, toned naturally, and toned not so naturally...... the point is the coins themselves bring what they bring. There is a market for every cooin.....let the market find its own level with whatever views or definitions are out there. There are people who love their coins every bit as much as other people who love their coins regardless of what was paid for the coin or whether or not the coin is original or not........point is they enjoy their coins. What kind of coins are collected by each person also doesn't impede friendships ( at least not with me) and probably promotes friendships relative to similar interests.

It bugs me when I read words that you use.

MrEureka · February 12, 2013 1:24AM

However, when the definition of "coin doctors" can mean so many more things, including conserving and dipping as examples, then we run the risk of creating two classes of coins and coin collectors - the elitists who can pay large sums for clearly perfect coins, and all others whose coins risk being identified as valueless based upon an overly broad definition of "doctoring." Do we really want our hobby to exclude the masses by deeming only ulta expensive coins as worth collecting?

Your so-called "elitists" - I'll call them perfectionists instead - are free to pay large sums for perfect coins and pass on the rest. No problem with that.

The non-perfectionists, whether they're that way by choice or necessity, welcome the opportunity to buy imperfect coins at appropriately discounted prices. In fact, the bigger the discount, the better.

How you think that any of this excludes anyone from the hobby or makes imperfect coins "not worth collecting" is beyond me.

BillJones · February 12, 2013 1:43AM

<< However, when the definition of "coin doctors" can mean so many more things, including conserving and dipping as examples, then we run the risk of creating two classes of coins and coin collectors - the elitists who can pay large sums for clearly perfect coins, and all others whose coins risk being identified as valueless based upon an overly broad definition of "doctoring." Do we really want our hobby to exclude the masses by deeming only ulta expensive coins as worth collecting?

Your so-called "elitists" - I'll call them perfectionists instead - are free to pay large sums for perfect coins and pass on the rest. No problem with that.

The non-perfectionists, whether they're that way by choice or necessity, welcome the opportunity to buy imperfect coins at appropriately discounted prices. In fact, the bigger the discount, the better.

How you think that any of this excludes anyone from the hobby or makes imperfect coins "not worth collecting" is beyond me. >>

The problem is if you are going to force the grading companies to put "dipped" with the date it was done or even "naturally re-toned" on the slab label it is going to have a negative effect upon the price of the coins involved.

Years ago SEGS used to list all of the problems with the coins they graded on their holders. Dealers complained it made the coin harder to sell. Likewise ANACS, during paper certification era, listed the date a coin was graded, and then they announced that they were changing their grading standards after a certain date. The immediate result was the pieces with the "pre change" date were sold at a discount. The long term effect was that the "old" certifications were rendered economically invalid.

I don't think that NGC or PCGS want to see this happen. It would be very bad for hobby, and it would serve little purpose, except for those who to use the grading service markings for their marketing programs.

MrEureka · February 12, 2013 1:53AM

The problem is if you are going to force the grading companies to put "dipped" with the date it was done or even "naturally re-toned" on the slab label it is going to have a negative effect upon the price of the coins involved.

Nobody has the power to force the TPGs to comply with demands like that.

BillJones · February 12, 2013 1:59AM

<< The problem is if you are going to force the grading companies to put "dipped" with the date it was done or even "naturally re-toned" on the slab label it is going to have a negative effect upon the price of the coins involved.

Nobody has the power to force the TPGs to comply with demands like that. >>

Read Laura's article. That's what she wants.

bidask · February 12, 2013 2:20AM

<< 

<< The problem is if you are going to force the grading companies to put "dipped" with the date it was done or even "naturally re-toned" on the slab label it is going to have a negative effect upon the price of the coins involved.

Nobody has the power to force the TPGs to comply with demands like that. >>

Read Laura's article. That's what she wants. >>

I agree that the 3rd party graders cannot be forced to do anything......but lets say they were forced to disclose on the holder whether or not a coin had been dipped or naturally re-toned .....so what?

Is your only argument is that that kind of TPG disclosure may result in the price of the coin being affected?

I say 'so what' to that too...! Markets of all kinds adjust in price all the time ....so should coin markets.....

Under such a scenario where the TPG's are forced to do this then the truth of the coin will be on the label of the slab.

I call that full disclosure and good for the hobby......again let the coin market find its own level of value for such coin.....otherwise the argument continues that coin consumers will continue to overpay for such coins that don't have that kind of disclosure.

pennyannie · February 12, 2013 2:31AM

My view of some purists is that a lot of their "consumer protection" crusade is self-serving. By invalidating the value of other people's collections, they think that they are going to enhance the value of what they own. To me that is just plain wrong. If you want to promote the merits of what you like to collect, that's fine. But don't expect to foul someone else's property and have them thank you for it. They are going to respond, and the response will be acrimonious.

I dislike the practices of coin doctors who are out to deceive people, but I recognize that darn few coins are naturally "perfect." Some people are trying to make the words "market acceptable" sound dirty, but if there are no "market acceptable" coins, other than the "perfect" ones, there is going to be darn little for the rest of us to collect. >>

VERY WELL SAID!!!!! +1

Until you can PERFECT GRADING of coins thay the masses agree on i do not see how you can start labeling them as 100 percent pure unmolested, 10 percent molested, 20 percent screw up etc.

Make all coins be fingerprinted/mapped/dna'd from the date 1/01/2014 and then they can never be sent back in for a regrade. That way a crack out can not be done. Have a shared data base between the grading companies so a ngc coin can't come to pcgs and vice versa. Never going to happen. To much money crosses hands on all sides to limit the trip to the slab as a 1 and done.

When you get a coin for xx dollars and a dip/rinse/enhancement return the person xxx you will not stop it and maybe it does not need to be stopped.

To me education is the key but that is aquired over many many years and the masses generally learn along the way. I also think a lot of what Laura toots her horn about is more for her bottom line than for the average collector.

Still i hope she wins

Greeniejr · February 12, 2013 2:48AM

Rather than wasting our time debating unrealistic ideas like forcing the grading services to do anything, why no focus our energy on something useful and realistic. Why not focus on educating ourselves and others on what to for in quality material and how to detect doctored and worked on coins. I think most high end collectors are very good at researching, learning the series and figuring out what a nice coin is. The problem comes in with the new generation of investor/collectors who want to buy coins and don't want to take the time to learn what they are buying. I can understand why someone who deals with these types might be so gung ho about making absolutely everything transparent and seemingly regulated. Unfortunately this is not reality for the 99% out there.

MrEureka · February 12, 2013 6:02AM

<<Nobody has the power to force the TPGs to comply with demands like that. >>

Read Laura's article. That's what she wants.

Just because she wants it doesn't mean she has a chance of getting it.

BillJones · February 12, 2013 6:37AM

<< <<Nobody has the power to force the TPGs to comply with demands like that. >>

Read Laura's article. That's what she wants.

Just because she wants it doesn't mean she has a chance of getting it. >>

Oh she has a chance. She wants to get on the ANA Board of Directors and change the rules.

As a happy collector I get wary of having to spend small fortune on new certification holders, stickers and postage to say nothing of the risk facts involved with having your collection lost or stolen in transit. In the old days, you studied your coins and the market; you picked out nice coins with good eye appeal; and you were usually okay in the long run. Generally the only thing you had to worry about was shifts in the collectors' tastes, like a meltdown in the market for Indian cents which cost me dearly when I was a young collector in the early 1970s.

Now you have to worry that the good coins you picked years ago will be "perfect" for the purists who are not satisfied with making their own market. They have to stick their nose into other people's markets in the name of "consumer protection."

I have purchased one coin from Legend, and I think that it was a piece that they didn't like and would not have offered under normal circumstances, an 1854-D Three Dollar Gold Piece in PCGS AU-55 CAC. I think she had it on consignment from a client who decided to go in a different collecting direction by the way she worded her advertising copy.

Generally Legend sells very high grade, CAC approved common date to slightly scarce date material. I generally collect scarce to very scarce collector coins, tokens and medals in collector grades ranging from EF-40 to MS-63 or 4. I know that some of the coins I have were dipped in the past, and they are have re-toned. I also have some white silver coins that I know were dipped. All of them were market acceptable when I bought them. I resent actions by others that are aimed at changing the rules in the middle of game, perhaps for their financial benefit and my financial detriment.

Elcontador · February 12, 2013 6:44AM

As a practical matter, if you have been in the hobby for any length of time and have some contacts, you have a good idea of who the coin doctors are. Furthermore, you can probably spot an artificially toned coin, unless it's a RD copper. And if it's a RD copper, if it's not in an old holder, I wouldn't buy it anyway.

BillJones · February 12, 2013 6:47AM

<< As a practical matter, if you have been in the hobby for any length of time and have some contacts, you have a good idea of who the coin doctors are. Furthermore, you can probably spot an artificially toned coin, unless it's a RD copper. And if it's a RD copper, if it's not in an old holder, I wouldn't buy it anyway. >>

Yes, but this proposal to red flag any coin that has ever been dipped (not cleaned) is over the top. And added to that is the fact that some experts might disagree as whether or not a re-toned coin ever was dipped.

stealer · February 12, 2013 7:19AM

<< "If I win a seat on the ANA board, I will make a small part of the ANA into a consumer protection/advocy group that WILL have razor sharp teeth."
Sure the teeth will be razor sharp, just made of clay. Until the ANA is given meaningful enforcement capacity, it's all just words. The worst thing the ANA can do is remove a member. Oooohhh ... I am sure the coin docs are just trembling over that! Get the ANA and law enforcement together and then there is a chance for the ANA to make a real difference. Until then, it's all rhetoric. >>

I can't see anyone ever becoming criminalized for "ruining" a collectible. If the we ever pass a law to preserve collectibles, I think I'd have to move to Canada.

<< "Basically, I would create a powerful comittee that would hold people responsible." And do what ... wag a finger extra hard at them? You can't hold people responsible until they are accountable to you. Other than with membership, the ANA has no standing. >>

I thought that was hilarious as well, and you stated it perfectly. Like you said, until the law gets behind coin collectors, nothing will be achieved. I somehow doubt that will ever happen. I think the government has some slightly bigger fish to fry.

EagleEye · February 12, 2013 7:23AM

Rather than wasting our time debating unrealistic ideas like forcing the grading services to do anything, why no focus our energy on something useful and realistic. Why not focus on educating ourselves and others on what to for in quality material and how to detect doctored and worked on coins. I think most high end collectors are very good at researching, learning the series and figuring out what a nice coin is. The problem comes in with the new generation of investor/collectors who want to buy coins and don't want to take the time to learn what they are buying. I can understand why someone who deals with these types might be so gung ho about making absolutely everything transparent and seemingly regulated. Unfortunately this is not reality for the 99% out there.

Education, what a concept! It has always been the best protection.

amwldcoin · February 12, 2013 8:09AM

<< 

<< <<Nobody has the power to force the TPGs to comply with demands like that. >>

Read Laura's article. That's what she wants.

Just because she wants it doesn't mean she has a chance of getting it. >>

Oh she has a chance. She wants to get on the ANA Board of Directors and change the rules.

As a happy collector I get wary of having to spend small fortune on new certification holders, stickers and postage to say nothing of the risk facts involved with having your collection lost or stolen in transit. In the old days, you studied your coins and the market; you picked out nice coins with good eye appeal; and you were usually okay in the long run. Generally the only thing you had to worry about was shifts in the collectors' tastes, like a meltdown in the market for Indian cents which cost me dearly when I was a young collector in the early 1970s.

Now you have to worry that the good coins you picked years ago will be "perfect" for the purists who are not satisfied with making their own market. They have to stick their nose into other people's markets in the name of "consumer protection."

I have purchased one coin from Legend, and I think that it was a piece that they didn't like and would not have offered under normal circumstances, an 1854-D Three Dollar Gold Piece in PCGS AU-55 CAC. I think she had it on consignment from a client who decided to go in a different collecting direction by the way she worded her advertising copy.

Generally Legend sells very high grade, CAC approved common date to slightly scarce date material. I generally collect scarce to very scarce collector coins, tokens and medals in collector grades ranging from EF-40 to MS-63 or 4. I know that some of the coins I have were dipped in the past, and they are have re-toned. I also have some white silver coins that I know were dipped. All of them were market acceptable when I bought them. I resent actions by others that are aimed at changing the rules in the middle of game, perhaps for their financial benefit and my financial detriment. >>

I like and agree with your retort!

nwcoast · February 12, 2013 8:33AM

<< 

<< 

<< <<Nobody has the power to force the TPGs to comply with demands like that. >>

Read Laura's article. That's what she wants.

Just because she wants it doesn't mean she has a chance of getting it. >>

Oh she has a chance. She wants to get on the ANA Board of Directors and change the rules.

As a happy collector I get wary of having to spend small fortune on new certification holders, stickers and postage to say nothing of the risk facts involved with having your collection lost or stolen in transit. In the old days, you studied your coins and the market; you picked out nice coins with good eye appeal; and you were usually okay in the long run. Generally the only thing you had to worry about was shifts in the collectors' tastes, like a meltdown in the market for Indian cents which cost me dearly when I was a young collector in the early 1970s.

Now you have to worry that the good coins you picked years ago will be "perfect" for the purists who are not satisfied with making their own market. They have to stick their nose into other people's markets in the name of "consumer protection."

I have purchased one coin from Legend, and I think that it was a piece that they didn't like and would not have offered under normal circumstances, an 1854-D Three Dollar Gold Piece in PCGS AU-55 CAC. I think she had it on consignment from a client who decided to go in a different collecting direction by the way she worded her advertising copy.

Generally Legend sells very high grade, CAC approved common date to slightly scarce date material. I generally collect scarce to very scarce collector coins, tokens and medals in collector grades ranging from EF-40 to MS-63 or 4. I know that some of the coins I have were dipped in the past, and they are have re-toned. I also have some white silver coins that I know were dipped. All of them were market acceptable when I bought them. I resent actions by others that are aimed at changing the rules in the middle of game, perhaps for their financial benefit and my financial detriment. >>

I like and agree with your retort!

>>

+2 i do as well! Very well put!!!'

MrEureka · February 12, 2013 10:43AM

Rather than wasting our time debating unrealistic ideas like forcing the grading services to do anything, why no focus our energy on something useful and realistic. Why not focus on educating ourselves and others on what to for in quality material and how to detect doctored and worked on coins.

That is a good start. However, if we're going to be realistic, we have to accept that if a coin is doctored so well that it slips past a TPG, it can probably slip by a lot of "educated" collectors.

Greeniejr · February 12, 2013 10:56AM

<< Rather than wasting our time debating unrealistic ideas like forcing the grading services to do anything, why no focus our energy on something useful and realistic. Why not focus on educating ourselves and others on what to for in quality material and how to detect doctored and worked on coins.

That is a good start. However, if we're going to be realistic, we have to accept that if a coin is doctored so well that it slips past a TPG, it can probably slip by a lot of "educated" collectors. >>

Well playing devils advocate, if it is so good that the TPG can't tell (especially with the sniffer) , a knowledgable dealer cant tell and a seasoned collector can't tell then what is wrong with the coin? In this case I am not referring to any of the "big sins" of adding/moving metal. I am referring to dipping, expedited natural toning and the like.

PerryHall · February 12, 2013 11:01AM

<< 

<< Rather than wasting our time debating unrealistic ideas like forcing the grading services to do anything, why no focus our energy on something useful and realistic. Why not focus on educating ourselves and others on what to for in quality material and how to detect doctored and worked on coins.

That is a good start. However, if we're going to be realistic, we have to accept that if a coin is doctored so well that it slips past a TPG, it can probably slip by a lot of "educated" collectors. >>

Well playing devils advocate, if it is so good that the TPG can't tell (especially with the sniffer) , a knowledgable dealer cant tell and a seasoned collector can't tell then what is wrong with the coin? In this case I am not referring to any of the "big sins" of adding/moving metal. I am referring to dipping, expedited natural toning and the like. >>

Isn't that like saying "If a coin is counterfeit but it's so good that no one can tell that it's a counterfeit, does it matter?"

MrEureka · February 12, 2013 11:23AM

Well playing devils advocate, if it is so good that the TPG can't tell (especially with the sniffer) , a knowledgable dealer cant tell and a seasoned collector can't tell then what is wrong with the coin? In this case I am not referring to any of the "big sins" of adding/moving metal. I am referring to dipping, expedited natural toning and the like.

Just because a coin slips by someone the first time doesn't mean he won't catch it next time.

That said, even people who know exactly what they're looking at and do not miss the dipping/toning/whatever will sometimes determine that the coin is good enough to get a grade. Same as at the TPGs. And after 50 million coins have been slabbed, it's probably too late to call "do-over" on all of the net-graded coins.

lava · February 12, 2013 11:24AM

The story with problem coins goes beyond the people responsible for doctoring. Doctored coins are in the inventories of nearly every dealer, whether they know it or not.

New Legend Hot Topic posted. Dead horses and a Platform

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