Whats the big deal about having 'first shot' ?

bidask · January 13, 2013 6:29AM

I have shown coins to dealers and give them so called first shot only to have them say they want to show the coin
first to another dealer before they make a decision...

I have shown coins to dealers who can make a decision to buy immediately..

I have shown coins to dealers and they pass and I end up selling the coins for a higher price to another dealer.

I have shown coins to a dealers who counteroffer....and I should have taken the offer.

All in all what is the big deal about 'first shot' ?

Why do dealers have to care so much what the next dealer is paying?

STONE · January 13, 2013 6:32AM

Can save A LOT of time looking elsewhere!

PerryHall · January 13, 2013 6:34AM

Once in awhile it's a special coin that you may not ever see again in which case a first shot means something. For most coins that are frequently available, first shot doesn't mean much.

Coinosaurus · January 13, 2013 6:37AM

There is a certain class of items which don't trade openly. Sure, they may show up in auctions once in awhile, but sometimes sellers would rather "place" items privately. They want it to go to the "right" person, or they don't want to risk getting other clients POed who didn't get a chance. I have things in my collection which absolutely will get offered to the "right" person before they go to auction - even if it costs me a bit of money I would rather put things in collections of people who have passion for them and don't look at it like just another widget.

19Lyds · January 13, 2013 6:39AM

<< I have shown coins to dealers and give them so called first shot only to have them say they want to show the coin
first to another dealer before they make a decision...

I have shown coins to dealers who can make a decision to buy immediately..

I have shown coins to dealers and they pass and I end up selling the coins for a higher price to another dealer.

I have shown coins to a dealers who counteroffer....and I should have taken the offer.

All in all what is the big deal about 'first shot' ?

Why do dealers have to care so much what the next dealer is paying? >>

My guess, is that by showing the coin to another dealer first, they are actually looking to see if they can flip it to that dealer before they commit to buying it from you.

As for the term "first shot", I thought that term was reserved for sellers that were having "sellers remorse"?

TheRegulator · January 13, 2013 6:43AM

There may not be a second shot.

ColonelJessup · January 13, 2013 6:57AM

<< There may not be a second shot. >>

Precisely. A corollary thread could be "What's the big deal about early-bird attendance".

First shot is often used to imply "this coin has not been whored around"

Unknown · January 13, 2013 6:59AM

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JamesM · January 13, 2013 7:04AM

In my experience it means little to nothing.

pennyannie · January 13, 2013 7:16AM

First shot = big price. I can see where someone like Realone can benifit from a first shot but in my collector area it means nothing.

ColonelJessup · January 13, 2013 7:17AM

<< 

<< I have shown coins to dealers and give them so called first shot only to have them say they want to show the coin
first to another dealer before they make a decision...

I have shown coins to dealers who can make a decision to buy immediately..

>>

My guess, is that by showing the coin to another dealer first, they are actually looking to see if they can flip it to that dealer before they commit to buying it from you. >>

Can't deny the flipping (dealers often call this "whoring) scenario, but that dealer showing a coin to another may be doing it on the basis of "If he has a customer we'll buy it together" or sometimes "If he has the money, I'll give up half the profit 'cause half is better than none"

illini420 · January 13, 2013 7:19AM

<< 

<< 

<< I have shown coins to dealers and give them so called first shot only to have them say they want to show the coin
first to another dealer before they make a decision...

I have shown coins to dealers who can make a decision to buy immediately..

>>

My guess, is that by showing the coin to another dealer first, they are actually looking to see if they can flip it to that dealer before they commit to buying it from you. >>

Can't deny the flipping (dealers often call this "whoring) scenario, but that dealer showing a coin to another may be doing it on the basis of "If he has a customer we'll buy it together" or sometimes "If he has the money, I'll give up half the profit 'cause half is better than none" >>

When selling coins to dealers at shows, I rarely let dealers go ask others to look at my stuff as described. I figure I'd eventually find that other dealer on my own anyways if I'm patient enough in shopping my coin around the show.

Kove · January 13, 2013 7:33AM

First shot means the coin hasn't been turned down by several dealers. If someone brings me a coin that has been shopped around to several people, I wonder to myself why they all have passed on the coin. Is there something wrong with it? Is too much money being asked? Does the coin have something in it's history that I don't know about?

It's sort of like the box-walkers at a major show. If I've seen the person walk from table to table to table, I'll wave them off when they show up at my table. Prior experience has taught me that there's a reason the coins in the box were passed over by others.

PerryHall · January 13, 2013 7:40AM

When a dealer offers you first shot on a coin, do you ever wonder how many other people he offered it to before he offered it to you?

Coinosaurus · January 13, 2013 7:47AM

<< When a dealer offers you first shot on a coin, do you ever wonder how many other people he offered it to before he offered it to you?

>>

That's part of the game, no doubt about it.

bidask · January 13, 2013 7:50AM

<< When a dealer offers you first shot on a coin, do you ever wonder how many other people he offered it to before he offered it to you?

>>

Not really, I try to make a determination myself to pass, play or counteroffer.

Nic · January 13, 2013 8:23AM

Nic · January 13, 2013 8:24AM

<< 

<< There may not be a second shot. >>

Precisely. A corollary thread could be "What's the big deal about early-bird attendance".

First shot is often used to imply "this coin has not been whored around"

>>

K

7Jaguars · January 13, 2013 8:26AM

Wow, I have gotten some superior pieces by being there for "first shot" and note many times the dealer is just trying to make a quick turn around profit on a recent buy. And I mean outrageous pieces that have not come up in 10 or 15 years since the opportunity. I appreciate being thought of, and have generally had a good customer relationship with the dealer for many years.

19Lyds · January 13, 2013 8:30AM

<< When a dealer offers you first shot on a coin, do you ever wonder how many other people he offered it to before he offered it to you?

>>

True!

If he offers it a second time at a lower price, then you'll be glad you passed on "the first shot"!

joebb21 · January 13, 2013 8:44AM

Generally on nicer/rarer coins its the difference between being offered the coin for $x vs. $x+y

s4ny · January 13, 2013 8:47AM

For a dealer offering a first shot it could mean a quick flip. Money in motion, sell the coin with little effort to the buyer and then use that $ to
buy something else.

For a collector offerin first shot to a dealer the collector is saying that this coin has not been shopped around.

stman · January 13, 2013 8:49AM

I think first shot can be OK once in a while if someone is gunning for certain coins. I've had a couple dealers offer me first shot in the past. I might have bought one if I was looking for a certain coin, and in the days when I was gunning for them. But, turn certain dealers once or twice and some act like they are offended you had the nerve to turn down this special opportunity........ even when you didn't ask them for it, and it's not even something that you've discussed before.

Years ago when I was going after many 1807 Capped Bust halves and let a dealer know. The next thing he started showing me a few that IMO were a POS (and he knew the quality I like) and yes I felt he indeed was taking a huge "SHOT" at me.

I passed on a couple and he never offered me this so-called privilege again.
Which is great as far as I'm concerned.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 13, 2013 9:06AM

The value of "first shot" is usually more valuable than the coin itself. First shot is like "last chance at this price". Often times it's a "pitch" to motivate a possible buyer or move the item quickly. It's not something I typically hear or use in business. There are a few collectors who have "want lists". They normally get a call that a certain item is in. It's not necessarily a "first shot". More like first consideration.

mrpotatoheadd · January 13, 2013 9:21AM

<< All in all what is the big deal about 'first shot' ? >>

Depends. How long have you been looking for a particular coin? Do you care if, instead of getting a call or an email from a dealer that the coin you're looking for is available, you find it on his website after he's offered it to other potential buyers first? Or that the coin was offered to other potential buyers first, didn't make it to his website and you never even knew it was available?

<< Why do dealers have to care so much what the next dealer is paying? >>

Possibly for the same reason collectors care so much about what other collectors are paying?

magikbilly · January 13, 2013 10:20AM

is this anything like First Strike?

I agree with Col. Jessup.

Eric

TomB · January 13, 2013 10:23AM

Oftentimes opportunity is more difficult to come by than cash.

RedTiger · January 13, 2013 10:35AM

From reading between the posts, it seems the context matters. Dealer to dealer, it doesn't seem like it means much. To a collector, first shot at dealer's fresh inventory seems to mean quite a bit, more so for those that collect hard to find coins. Dealers getting first shot at a collector's coins, again, doesn't seem to mean that much, perhaps with exceptions for high quality collections (probably less than 1% of collections being offered). Collector to collector, it probably means something, especially if the collectors are friends and the prices are friendly. So to summarize what I am reading, it seems to matter for collectors, not so much for dealers.

WTCG · January 13, 2013 10:45AM

What's the deal with first shot? The fact that you have the most options available to you when you are looking to buy. It means others haven't had the chance to buy coins that you otherwise might not have the opportunity to. Sometimes first shot is over hyped but most of the time it is worth the extra effort.

There are reasons why sports teams want early draft picks instead of late ones and why the available ladies that are left at the club at 3am last call are the ones only desperation could desire. It's no different when buying coins.

roadrunner · January 13, 2013 11:02AM

<< When a dealer offers you first shot on a coin, do you ever wonder how many other people he offered it to before he offered it to you?

>>

There are a lot of cheap-a$$ed dealers in my state. Most don't want to pay what a coin is really worth. More often than not they will lowball a bit on any
coins shown to them. I have a dealer friend of mine who is often the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even 5th guy in line. And you wouldn't believe the number of times he
has bought fresh, large deals because the other guys low balled in unison and he seemed like a hero when offering 30-50% more. And usually the lowballers
left enough room for my friend to make a nice profit. But this is getting first shot from the public, and often the unknowledgeable public.

I've seen far more cases where "first shot" from a dealer were burials. It's more a probe at high levels to find an absolute ceiling on the potential value. After they've
been rejected and countered enough, they figure out what they can really get for the coin. Some first shots work out very well though. But I think those are the exceptions
rather than the rule. If the item is truly unusual and in demand, the first "shot" is usually way over what the seller knows the coin is potentially worth. And being first in line
in those situations means you're not going to get the coin. And if you counter them with what you are willing to pay, that # will be used against you as any subsequent viewers
will pay an extra $20, $50, $100 or whatever to take you out of the equation. There's no downside in looking at first shots of fresh deals. With one particular retailer they offered
me first shot on some coins when I originally started with them. There were both winners and losers in those first shots as price means everything. But over time those first
shots and recommendations became a steady stream of marginal coins so it was time to cut and run. Dealers love first shots from other dealers who don't exactly know what they
are doing. Those are often treasure troves scooping up the underpriced bargains. For 30 yrs one of my local shops didn't know what they were doing but still managed to flourish.
Every month or so a major dealer from out of state would fly in and clean them out. He got first shot at all the good stuff. It didn't hurt that the shop owner would often undergrade
by 1-3 MS points. The buying dealer was a "hero" because he rarely countered lower on a lot of these coins...paying "full price" for the winners and passing on the losers.

These days, getting first shot often means you are the bearer of bad news to the seller, informing them they are way off on what they think the coins are worth. You don't end up with
them. But after a constant refrain from other dealers saying the same thing, #3, or #4 or #5 dealer will end up with them. I'd still want to be the #1 look, but realize it's usually a
death sentence if you are truly first and the prices are over market. If you luck into a person that consistently grades conservatively, then it's a win-win.

magikbilly · January 13, 2013 11:16AM

With SOME ocean liner stuff I actually know I am getting first shot at truly fresh material (some not on the market for 20 years), but overall I would never believe "first shot"! On the other hand, my regular customers get it even if they don't know it. I spend a lot of time steering items to those who truly want them, and that is not the one with the $$$ even half the time.

Eric

ColonelJessup · January 13, 2013 2:10PM

<< 

<< When a dealer offers you first shot on a coin, do you ever wonder how many other people he offered it to before he offered it to you?

>>

True!

If he offers it a second time at a lower price, then you'll be glad you passed on "the first shot"! >>

Have you ever wondered whether you might have paid marginally less than even that new lower price if you'd made a reasonable counter? Whatever that is.

There's buyer's remorse and "damn I should have pulled the trigger" remorse. And "damn, why the eff didn't I take that counter?" remorse..

Sometimes a VERY occasionally encountered dealer or two will give you what seems to be, and sometimes is, a vicious "shot price". But dealers mostly take those shots with each other.

Some very smart and knowledgeable have kicked themselves in the butt for many a triple-up that turned into a 30% loss. They had "first shot". The smartest of the smart buy fewer "traps". It's an occupational hazard for dealers.

Collectors:

look at anything offered. Grill the vendor before you let him turn into the seller. After you've looked, tell the dealer you need to do a little "figuring" before you" take a quote". You're going to know your price before you let him take his first step with his number. Psychologically you're going to feel stronger, because you've carved out your "space".

The momentum has just changed.

Sometimes, in the middle of it, you will realize it's its own version of Kabuki

Justacommeman · January 13, 2013 2:28PM

<< Oftentimes opportunity is more difficult to come by than cash. >>

More then germs of truth here. MJ

magikbilly · January 13, 2013 2:29PM

<< 

<< 

<< When a dealer offers you first shot on a coin, do you ever wonder how many other people he offered it to before he offered it to you?

>>

True!

If he offers it a second time at a lower price, then you'll be glad you passed on "the first shot"! >>

Have you ever wondered whether you might have paid marginally less than that lower price if you'd made a reasonable counter? Whatever that is.

Though sometimes a VERY occasional dealer or two will give you what seems, and may well, a vicious "shot price". But dealers mostly take those shots with each other.

Some very smart and knowledgeable have kicked themselves in the butt for many a triple-up that turned into a 30% loss. They had "first shot". The smartest of the smart buy fewer "traps". It's an occupational hazard for dealers.

Collectors:

look at anything offered. Grill the vendor before you let him turn into the seller. After you've looked. Tell the dealer you need to do a little "figuring" before you" take a quote". You're going to know your price before you let him take his first step with his number. Psychologically you're going to feel stronger, because you've carved out your "space".

The momentum has just changed.

Sometimes, in the middle of it, you will realize it's its own version of Kabuki >>

Col.Jessup! Please tell me I don't need the makeup!

I agree, it is bizarre. I will keep an eye for any further Seri if I understand the term correctly - looking for serioroshi masquerading as seridashi especially!
I have been following The Col.'s advice to collectors for some time now without knowing it.
Simply put, it works.
Let the dealer get stressed and stay inside your game plan.

Eric

pocketpiececommems · January 14, 2013 2:41AM

TomB is correct. It's the opportunity that counts. There is 1 graded PO01 1936-D Arkansas out there. If it were to become available I would love to have "First Shot/Chance" at it.

Unknown · January 14, 2013 2:51AM

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RB1026 · January 14, 2013 2:53AM

<< Oftentimes opportunity is more difficult to come by than cash. >>

I agree 100% with this.

mrearlygold · January 14, 2013 4:04AM

I had a really cool bust half with some of the most desireable toning that was sent to me from an investor type coin person who didn't seem to care much about that, while simultanously I also knew a serious bust half collector guy who specialized in high grade and especially pretty toned bust halves. He's not the only fellow in my customer base who would have wanted that coin. I could have sold that coin 10 times in the morning. In this case I gave first shot to my bust half specialist customer and he was really happy I did. I had never seen one quite as pretty as that one and have never seen another like it since and it's been nearly 25 years. Reckon my customer was glad to be given the first shot?

First shot is important and even vital for a variety of things but if you are buying common or average coins then I guess it doesn't mean much at all unless it's a price point. I regularly buy and sell coins that are top condition census, finest known, or off the market for years ( sometimes decades ) and years and years types of coins and for me to be given first shot on these types of coins have helped my customer base, the ones who buy these types of coins immensely over the years.

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mrearlygold · January 14, 2013 4:49AM

ebaybuyer · January 14, 2013 3:00PM

in the arena of my collecting interest, its easy enough to tell "first shot" material by the price. if its redbook or less, im getting first grab, over that, i know its been around. and it still may be a fair price if im 2nd or 3rd in line

Elcontador · January 14, 2013 4:08PM

<< 

<< Oftentimes opportunity is more difficult to come by than cash. >>

More then germs of truth here. MJ >>

I'll go one better. When it comes to what I collect, this is true more often than not. The only reason I got my Bust $ after 8 years of looking and the only reason I got my Barber Half after 4 years of looking was opportunity.

PerryHall · January 14, 2013 8:33PM

Let's get realistic here. How often are you offered a "first shot" coin where a similar coin can't be found at a major coin show such as FUN, ANA, Baltimore, etc? Most "first shot" coins aren't unique, once in a lifetime opportunities.

Justacommeman · January 14, 2013 8:47PM

<< Let's get realistic here. How often are you offered a "first shot" coin where a similar coin can't be found at a major coin show such as FUN, ANA, Baltimore, etc? Most "first shot" coins aren't unique, once in a lifetime opportunities. >>

I suppose it depends on what you collect. The coins I collect are rarely ever on the bourse. I've bought very little at shows. Almost all of my purchases have been from dealer connections and them reaching out. Sometimes its fellow collectors. If I relied on buying coins from shows I wouldn't have a collection.

Being near the top of the pecking order can be very helpful.

MJ

RedTiger · January 14, 2013 10:49PM

<< Let's get realistic here. How often are you offered a "first shot" coin where a similar coin can't be found at a major coin show such as FUN, ANA, Baltimore, etc? Most "first shot" coins aren't unique, once in a lifetime opportunities. >>

Again, context matters. For dealers, probably 99.99% of the coins they are offered by collectors looking to sell, are relatively common coins. For a collector that frequents high end dealers, looking for a certain kind of coin, it is a different story. There was a recent show report with a story of set of 46 bust halves from a quality collection being offered by a dealer. The story is that 40 out of 46 coins sold within two hours! If sold to collectors, odds are that those coins will not be on the market again for many years. Now that is an exceptional story, but it does illustrate how much first shot might mean to certain collectors for certain kinds of coins in certain situations.

WTCG pointed out the opposite. Let's say there is a hypothetical line of 100 collectors, would a collector rather be last in line, with only picked over coins to choose from or first in line? For those with a bargain hunter mentality it might be better to be near last, because the thinking might be that the dealer might be more in a mood to bargain. However, for the quality oriented collectors that dominate this forum, being first or second in line is a far better position that last.

mr1931S · January 14, 2013 10:51PM

It's sort of like the box-walkers at a major show. If I've seen the person walk from table to table to table, I'll wave them off when they show up at my table. Prior experience has taught me that there's a reason the coins in the box were passed over by others.

Interesting observation.

Now I know why I stroll by many a table at a major show without even looking at what some dealers are offering.Aye,I have learned to skillfully give nary a glance.

There's a reason the coins in those cases were passed over by others.It's an instinctive thing,hard to explain but a real phenomenon,nevertheless.

bidask · January 14, 2013 11:08PM

I think auctions are the way to go for that special coin.......that way everybody can be in line for first shot.

PerryHall · January 14, 2013 11:15PM

Is it really that relevent how many people have seen a coin? Doesn't it come down to the coin and what the seller wants for it? If a collector has already shown a desirable coin to a hundred dealers, he may be frustrated and ready to unload that coin at a realistic lower price. He may be asking top dollar to the first few people he shows it to but he may get more realistic as he moves down the line. Eventually, the price may drop to the point where it's a good deal for the buyer.

TomB · January 14, 2013 11:33PM

<< Let's get realistic here. How often are you offered a "first shot" coin where a similar coin can't be found at a major coin show such as FUN, ANA, Baltimore, etc? Most "first shot" coins aren't unique, once in a lifetime opportunities. >>

I've been back in this hobby-industry just over two decades now and my personal collection consists of about 75-coins. A number of the coins that I was offered a true "first shot" on are among the highlights of my collection and include not only about a dozen superb Washington quarters, but also the following.

This uber-gem 1890 Seated Liberty dime from a collector who owned the coin for years before he finally sold it to me. Every time I saw him I would ask about the coin and he would tell me that if it became available he would give me first shot. Well, one day about 10-years ago he came to a show needing to raise funds for a new purchase and it just killed him to do it, but he sold me the coin-

This superb 1939-D Mercury dime from a major dealer who was involved in the original sale of the small group of dimes that came to light in the early-mid 1990s that had a similar look to this coin. Some of the coins from this group are still available from time-to-time, but I don't think they can match this piece. I asked repeatedly about the coin, but it was firmly in the dealer's own collection. Finally, he relented and gave me a single first shot. This was going on 15-years ago-

The gem 1861 Seated Liberty quarter shown below was in collectors type set for a decade and, if I recall correctly, had been sequestered in another collection on a long-term basis prior to that, too. The dealer who handled the original sale to the collector told me about the coin and that it might come back on the market. I was given first shot about 5-years ago to buy the coin-

My favorite coin in my collection is an 1892 Barber half dollar. Again, this coin was tucked away for many years in a collection and a dealer gave me a heads-up that he was going to visit the client with a possible opportunity to reacquire the coin. I knew about the meeting beforehand and arranged to purchase the coin if it was sold back to the dealer. This was over 6-years ago and has been my favorite coin ever since-

This brings up the question about whether or not these coins are unique or if they could be replaced. They are only graded MS65, MS68FB, MS65 and MS66, respectively, so they could obviously be replaced for their grades. Additionally, none are unique or near-unique issues and all can be found in various grades with a number of "looks" at any decent sized show. Therefore, none could be argued to be once in a lifetime opportunities on the basis of absolute rarity of issue or grade. However, for the surface preservation and eye appeal that I adore and that I strive to incorporate these can be considered to be examples that might quench my thirst for the type. I would definitely agree that most first shot coins have not been coins that I just had to have, but sometimes they are. In those cases, it's good to have first shot even if the price might seem temporarily stiff.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 14, 2013 11:48PM

One major dealer offered to buy everything that comes into the shop at 30% back of grey sheet. This included gold and all type coins. A regional dealer offered to buy it all at 15% back of grey sheet. Another offered 10% back.
None of them get "first shot".
edit to add: One of them gets "first consideration" and he's the regional dealer who is a numismatist. Kudos to John Jackson from J+J Coins in Sioux City, Ia.

My hats been off to him because he will pay a fair price for "quality".

PerryHall · January 15, 2013 12:05AM

TomB---Nice coins but most first shot coins aren't nearly as nice as your examples.

Whats the big deal about having 'first shot' ?

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