Should the ANA be handing out Doctorates of Numismatics when Dr. Kagin had a go to school to earn hi
Longacre
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First, let me say that no one loves Ken Bressett or Mary Sauvain more than Longacre. They have both done immense things for the numismatic world, and deserve to be recognized.
Furthermore, let me say that no one has more respect for Dr. Kagin, the world's only Ph.D. in Numismatics. The good doctor had gone to school and earned his distinction, and graduated with a degree as a Doctor of Numismatics. I understand that the degree was hard work, and I read and enjoyed his book about Territorial Coins, which was essentially his thesis to obtain the doctorate.
Now, however, I see that the ANA has handed out "honorary" Doctor of Numismatic degrees to Bressett and Sauvain. Personally, I think that these honorary degrees water down the hard work that the true Doctor of Numismatics earned through the formal educational system.
Does anyone think that the ANA should reconsider this practice? Also, I always thought that only an educational institution that awarded "real" doctorate degrees can give honorary ones. Therefore, are the degrees awarded by the ANA invalid, and should they be revoked?
Here is the link to the announcement: ANA Link
Furthermore, let me say that no one has more respect for Dr. Kagin, the world's only Ph.D. in Numismatics. The good doctor had gone to school and earned his distinction, and graduated with a degree as a Doctor of Numismatics. I understand that the degree was hard work, and I read and enjoyed his book about Territorial Coins, which was essentially his thesis to obtain the doctorate.
Now, however, I see that the ANA has handed out "honorary" Doctor of Numismatic degrees to Bressett and Sauvain. Personally, I think that these honorary degrees water down the hard work that the true Doctor of Numismatics earned through the formal educational system.
Does anyone think that the ANA should reconsider this practice? Also, I always thought that only an educational institution that awarded "real" doctorate degrees can give honorary ones. Therefore, are the degrees awarded by the ANA invalid, and should they be revoked?
Here is the link to the announcement: ANA Link
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
<< <i>The ANA has no authority to hand out a PhD ... they might as well be from Chuck E Cheese's. They will garner no respect so who really cares???
I agree with you, with all due respect to Chuck E. Cheese.
There are appropriate ways to honor contributors to numismatics without taking a swipe at Dr. Kagin. Now, Longacre, could you please retell me the story of the gold bar in the garage that someone tried to fence? I am foggy on the details.
<< <i> Now, Longacre, could you please retell me the story of the gold bar in the garage that someone tried to fence? I am foggy on the details. >>
Maybe the fact that Fivaz just got over a heart attack made folks less likely to attempt to pounce.
<< <i>Funny, nobody brought this type of stuff up last summer when Bill Fivaz was given his doctorate in Numismatics at the 2008 Summer Seminar Banquet.
Maybe the fact that Fivaz just got over a heart attack made folks less likely to attempt to pounce. >>
Nah, we probably did not notice because we were pouncing on someone else.
Or maybe it was announced the week that Longacre was vacationing at an undisclosed Sandals Resort in Negril, Jamaica, and he missed the press release.
<< <i>
<< <i>Funny, nobody brought this type of stuff up last summer when Bill Fivaz was given his doctorate in Numismatics at the 2008 Summer Seminar Banquet.
Maybe the fact that Fivaz just got over a heart attack made folks less likely to attempt to pounce. >>
Nah, we probably did not notice because we were pouncing on someone else.
Or maybe it was announced the week that Longacre was vacationing at an undisclosed Sandals Resort in Negril, Jamaica, and he missed the press release. >>
Sandals? With the hoi polloi? Longacre has stayed at the Royal Plantation and wouldn't be seen at a Sandals.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Funny, nobody brought this type of stuff up last summer when Bill Fivaz was given his doctorate in Numismatics at the 2008 Summer Seminar Banquet.
Maybe the fact that Fivaz just got over a heart attack made folks less likely to attempt to pounce. >>
Nah, we probably did not notice because we were pouncing on someone else.
Or maybe it was announced the week that Longacre was vacationing at an undisclosed Sandals Resort in Negril, Jamaica, and he missed the press release. >>
Sandals? With the hoi polloi? Longacre has stayed at the Royal Plantation and wouldn't be seen at a Sandals. >>
Ha, I knew that Sandal's remark would bring you back to comment on this thread!
<< <i>The whole idea of a PhD in numismatics is absurd. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
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<< <i>
<< <i>The whole idea of a PhD in numismatics is absurd. >>
+1
They may as well hand out PhDs in model trains and BBQing then.
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<< <i>I'm not certain that Kagin's "PhD" was issued from an accredited university, either. Therefore, if true, he would not be accepted as a PhD to many folks. >>
This is what is website bio says,
"Don has unique credentials as a numismatic authority. He earned the first Bachelor of Arts degree in Numismatics granted by Northwestern University. simultaneously earning another B.A. in history. Graduate and post graduate studies at the Union Institute and University, Northwestern, Drake and John Hopkins Universities along with the American Numismatic Association, the American Numismatic Society and the Smithsonian Institution earned Don the first doctorate in Numismatics ever granted in the United States."
It does not indicate who granted the PhD.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The whole idea of a PhD in numismatics is absurd. >>
+1
They may as well hand out PhDs in model trains and BBQing then. >>
I would like to apply for a PhD in BSing and another in Steelerology.
<< <i>I think that instead of honorary PhDs, the ANA should grant honorary commissions as "Colonel" - you know, like the Kentucky Colonels! >>
As a Kentucky Colonel and son of a Kentucky Colonel, I resent the comparison.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not certain that Kagin's "PhD" was issued from an accredited university, either. Therefore, if true, he would not be accepted as a PhD to many folks. >>
This is what is website bio says,
"Don has unique credentials as a numismatic authority. He earned the first Bachelor of Arts degree in Numismatics granted by Northwestern University. simultaneously earning another B.A. in history. Graduate and post graduate studies at the Union Institute and University, Northwestern, Drake and John Hopkins Universities along with the American Numismatic Association, the American Numismatic Society and the Smithsonian Institution earned Don the first doctorate in Numismatics ever granted in the United States."
It does not indicate who granted the PhD. >>
Exactly. Some involved in this thread may remember an earlier thread regarding Kagin's claim of a PhD and the investigation that followed. As best as could be determined from online information, Kagin performed distance-learning thesis work through someplace called the The University Without Walls and finished his work while the institution was not an accredited institution. Therefore, given what was discussed in the earlier thread and if accurate and he were within my profession and had these qualifications, I would likely not accept his PhD claim an genuine.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I think that instead of honorary PhDs, the ANA should grant honorary commissions as "Colonel" - you know, like the Kentucky Colonels! >>
As one who occasionally partakes from the bucket of the Kentucky Colonel, I resent the comparison.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think that instead of honorary PhDs, the ANA should grant honorary commissions as "Colonel" - you know, like the Kentucky Colonels! >>
As one who occasionally partakes from the bucket of the Kentucky Colonel, I resent the comparison.
Ha!
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just archive diggin and today this is what i turned up
here is another thread and a couple other links for some light reading
CU - another thread
related money.org 1
related money.org 2
<< <i>As far as DK's degree is concerned, I can't say I know all of the details (although I should) but his excellent book (which was his thesis) speaks louder than any degree could.
As for whether or not a degree in numismatics is "absurd", it all depends on what is studied and what is accomplished. >>
a nice coherent and accurate post for a change. not from you i mean but this forum in general. they seem to be lacking as of late
.
As for whether or not a degree in numismatics is "absurd", it all depends on what is studied and what is accomplished.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not certain that Kagin's "PhD" was issued from an accredited university, either. Therefore, if true, he would not be accepted as a PhD to many folks. >>
This is what is website bio says,
"Don has unique credentials as a numismatic authority. He earned the first Bachelor of Arts degree in Numismatics granted by Northwestern University. simultaneously earning another B.A. in history. Graduate and post graduate studies at the Union Institute and University, Northwestern, Drake and John Hopkins Universities along with the American Numismatic Association, the American Numismatic Society and the Smithsonian Institution earned Don the first doctorate in Numismatics ever granted in the United States."
It does not indicate who granted the PhD. >>
Exactly. Some involved in this thread may remember an earlier thread regarding Kagin's claim of a PhD and the investigation that followed. As best as could be determined from online information, Kagin performed distance-learning thesis work through someplace called the The University Without Walls and finished his work while the institution was not an accredited institution. Therefore, given what was discussed in the earlier thread and if accurate and he were within my profession and had these qualifications, I would likely not accept his PhD claim an genuine. >>
That is interesting and I would have to agree. He did receive the "first" Bachelor of Arts in Numismatics ever granted by Northwestern, so that's not too shabby!
Tom
<< <i>Don [Kagin] is widely recognized as the country’s leading authority on pioneer gold coins. He also has an exceptional numismatic education. Don was awarded the first ever Bachelor of Arts degree in numismatics, this from Northwestern University, and holds the first (and only) Ph.D. in numismatics in the country which he earned at the Union Institute and University in Ohio.
His Ph.D. major studies resulted in the book Private Gold Coins and Patterns of the United States, which won the Numismatic Literary Guild’s (NLG) Best Book of the Year award, and which remains the definitive reference on pioneer gold. His Ph.D. minor studies were on early American currency, and his chapter on the early notes of 1812, included in Friedberg’s authoritative study of American currency, is still the definitive work in this area. >>
Here are some links:
UI&U's homepage
UI&U's Don Kagin alumni profile page
UI&U's Wikipedia page
I don't begrudge anyone spending their own money on a degree, but Kagin could have written the same books for much less money had they not been in the context of being granted a Ph.D, and still had the same credibility he has on the subjects today.
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<< <i>There is no barrier to entry into numismatics that requires a degree in it. So why get one? Does it make you more able to perform numismatic research and write books than others? No [....]
Kagin could have written the same books for much less money had they not been in the context of being granted a Ph.D, and still had the same credibility he has on the subjects today. >>
Perhaps a PhD isn't needed for numismatic research or writing books, but some credentials may help when providing numismatic advice to governments, banks and other financial institutions. From Don's profile:
<< <i>Dr. Kagin is the nation's number one numismatic advisor. He serves as consultant for governments, banks and trust departments, money managers, financial planners, and professionals seeking to implement or build a numismatic collection or investment program, or to dispose of a collection. He has also been called upon to lecture at annual conventions of the International Association of Financial Planners, the IAFP World Congress, the International Monetary Conference, the convention of Certified Accountants, and other seminars within the financial community. >>
There are many numismatists who have been witnesses in court and who have given academically rigorous presentations on numismatics and its place in U.S. history.
<< <i>I don't understand, how did Mr. Kagin get a doctorate degree in Numismatics if he is the only one in the world? Did he award it to himself?
Some universities allow students to develop a non-standard curriculum but it must past muster with the university.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand, how did Mr. Kagin get a doctorate degree in Numismatics if he is the only one in the world? Did he award it to himself?
Some universities allow students to develop a non-standard curriculum but it must past muster with the university. >>
In this interview, Dr. Kagin states that he received his PhD degree from Union Institute and University, an adult online degree granting program. I am considering putting my own program together to become a PhD in Message Board Psychology. I am sure that it will be rigorous and that my status as a PhD will be recognized by my peers both on and off the forum.
In other words, it's a flipping joke!
I've noticed an interesting thing during my 20 or so years in the medical profession. I've been everything from the clueless peon who gets to clean up hospital stuff you couldn't show on TV to the chief of surgery at my (small) hospital. The only people I've ever seen who to demanded to be addressed as "doctor" were people marginally worthy of the title. I have nothing against podiatrists, psycologists, optometrists, or dentists, but it always amuses me when the weakest in their ranks insist on being called "doctor" in social settings when the chief of neurosurgery at a major teaching hospital would rather go by his first name.
Titles, degrees, honors, medals, trophies and such are fine, but it's what you actually bring to the game that matters to me. I know without question that Don could bury me in a game of numismatic Trivial Pursuit. Does he or anyone else deserve a doctorate degree in numismatics? Maybe. The quiet and humble among us though are often the ones who bring the most interesting viewpoints to the discussion. As for honors bestowed by un-accredited institutions, I suppose they're fine for the people who seek them.
<< <i>Slightly off-topic, but related.....
I've noticed an interesting thing during my 20 or so years in the medical profession. I've been everything from the clueless peon who gets to clean up hospital stuff you couldn't show on TV to the chief of surgery at my (small) hospital. The only people I've ever seen who to demanded to be addressed as "doctor" were people marginally worthy of the title. I have nothing against podiatrists, psycologists, optometrists, or dentists, but it always amuses me when the weakest in their ranks insist on being called "doctor" in social settings when the chief of neurosurgery at a major teaching hospital would rather go by his first name.
Titles, degrees, honors, medals, trophies and such are fine, but it's what you actually bring to the game that matters to me. I know without question that Don could bury me in a game of numismatic Trivial Pursuit. Does he or anyone else deserve a doctorate degree in numismatics? Maybe. The quiet and humble among us though are often the ones who bring the most interesting viewpoints to the discussion. As for honors bestowed by un-accredited institutions, I suppose they're fine for the people who seek them. >>
I completely agree the above and come from the same background (from "candy striper" to Department Chair). I always introduce myself to subordinate co-workers (nurses, techs, clerical and administrative staff, etc.) by my first name and insist that they call me by it.
Andy, you may be biased, as you and Don have outbid me on a couple of coins.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>...
Andy, you may be biased, as you and Don have outbid me on a couple of coins. >>
Professionals split coins for one reason and one reason only. Partners are included only because they add value
This thread has gone pretty far off-base. Somehow lost here is that, pieces of paper aside, we are taliking about three talented and knowledgeable numismatists who have made major contributions to the hobby for decades.
Once again you don't even know you're standing on the shoulders of giants while you're pissing on their heads.
For that matter, can I award those collectors and dealers who I believe are the "best and the brightest" a degree in Numismatics?
This information personally baffles me unless I am missing something?
Wondercoin
edited to add: Is the ANA an accredited school duly registered with the U.S. Dept. of Education?
<< <i>
<< <i>...
Andy, you may be biased, as you and Don have outbid me on a couple of coins. >>
Professionals split coins for one reason and one reason only. Partners are included only because they add value
This thread has gone pretty far off-base. Somehow lost here is that, pieces of paper aside, we are taliking about three talented and knowledgeable numismatists who have made major contributions to the hobby for decades.
Once again you don't even know you're standing on the shoulders of giants while you're pissing on their heads.
Colonel,
Many have made contributions to numismatics without getting a degree and titling themselves "Doctor". In recent years, Roger Burdette, who really is a doctor but most people do not even know it (a pathologist, IIRC), has been an extremely prolific and accomplished numismatic researcher, and he did not ever ask anyone to call him Dr. Burdette. Doug Winter has written a dozen or so book, and he does not ask me to call him "Dr. Doug." The great master of all things numismatic was content to be called "QDB" or "Dave".
Perhaps Dr. Kagin's contributions are on par with Burdette, Winter, or Bowers, but the whole doctorate thing from an online or mail order university cheapens it, IMO.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>This thread and topic brings back found memories of the old college days at The South Hartford Institute of Technology- those were the days >>
I do not know that one, but I am familiar with the Sam Houston Institute of Technology.
Writing a book may be interesting, but to get a real PhD there is a body of knowledge to assimilate, orals to be taken and a refereed thesis to be approved by 3 individuals holding said degree (typically). While Mr. Kagin most certainly wrote a book and has outstanding numismatic credentials, the rest is a sham from a non accredited institution at the time. I hold the University of Phoenix in the same regard.
That is not to denigrate anyone in the industry, but this is just something that should not be in the discussion. Certified Grader would be a better honor to confer IMHO.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
While on staff at the ANA I (along with others) argued strongly against the association awarding the "Doctor of Numismatics" as it was silly and insulting to Colorado College on whose campus the ANA sits. Honoring those who have been "conferred" is great, and those individuals have made significant contributions to the hobby ... some of those contributions could be considered scholarly and peer-reviewed. But since the ANA prefers appearance and ego over substance, those in contrast were ignored.
As an aside ... someone else who earned a degree in numismatics is Jonathan Kern. He earned his Bachelor of Science in Numismatics (I believe studying inorganic chemistry as related to coinage metals ... but that may be stretching my memory). I forget the institution, but it was a state university (Univ of Kentucky, I think).
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