I think the coin is legit, the numbers match up, the guy is from a fairly small town in Colorado (not many local buyers), he has purchased Colorado Avalanche stuff (which suggests he lives in Colorado, and it's not a buy it now transaction.
It will be interesting to see what other numismatic items he lists.
I'll say it again, it's fake. If anyone is convinced it's real, buy it off eBay. If it's real, I'll give you a $10,000 profit no matter what it goes for on eBay. I guarantee I won't be writing a check.
<< <i>I'll say it again, it's fake. If anyone is convinced it's real, buy it off eBay. If it's real, I'll give you a $10,000 profit no matter what it goes for on eBay. I guarantee I won't be writing a check.
-Paul >>
Now that's tempting , i'm the underbidder ..or one of them @ just over 3k , kinda watching to see as theres still a couple of days
<< <i>I'll say it again, it's fake. If anyone is convinced it's real, buy it off eBay. If it's real, I'll give you a $10,000 profit no matter what it goes for on eBay. I guarantee I won't be writing a check.
-Paul >>
i just spent a good amount of time on the holder and my conclusion is the holder is not authentic.
the spacing of the letting and numbers does not match 1 single other holder for the blue background out of many generations of the holder
1 thing i've learned about coins, either it is or is not, there is no close... .
<< <i>Why does everyone use the "someone died" line. It seems like that is a tell.
If the slab is fake getting pics of the mintmark won't help. They take a real 1916-P Dime and marry it to a 1917-D or other "D" mint reverse. The coin will look real.
Cut the slab in half, and out come 2 machined 1/2 dimes..trust me I've done it with some rare dates (thanks goodness the coins weren't mine) >>
With all the regards to the font being incorrect, couldn't PCGS, or any TPG for that matter, just have their own font created that only they can use specifically for slabs? Wouldn't it eliminate any doubt in the future? Or is this already in effect?
well, the more i look at it...i do see there is a spacing discrepancy on the lettering.
none of my slabs have the letters that far apart...not counting the old slabs, which don't compare anyway...especially the space between P and C. those letters are very close together on every slab i have.
this one definitely had me fooled...it's a damn good fake at first glance. what's scary is that whoever made this will soon figure out how to get the kerning and tracking right...as their font looks pretty spot on.
I have no opinion on this as to being real or fake at this point. But no good pictures of the coin itself = no bid from me. Even if the coin is real and the slab is real- I am not a bidder at any price. Bob
I still do not see anything wrong with this slab, especially with the blown up pictures. The hologram looks good too. It sure looks clean and well put together to me. Sure the font and barcode may be a little different but you really think with nearly 25 million labels printed there aren't periods where there is variation? Yes, I know there are times when an obvious holder, label, and font change has been made. But at the end of the day I picture these labels being printed on laser printers from a software program and common sense tells me that there will be periods of variance without strict 100% uniformity even for an official holder/label version. If this holder is no good, then I really have no business buying a coin then because it sure would have fooled me.
<< <i>I still do not see anything wrong with this slab, especially with the blown up pictures. The hologram looks good too. It sure looks clean and well put together to me. Sure the font and barcode may be a little different but you really think with nearly 25 million labels printed there aren't periods where there is variation? Yes, I know there are times when an obvious holder, label, and font change has been made. But at the end of the day I picture these labels being printed on laser printers from a software program and common sense tells me that there will be periods of variance without strict 100% uniformity even for an official holder/label version. If this holder is no good, then I really have no business buying a coin then because it sure would have fooled me. >>
i have seen other counterfeit holders with spacing quite similar to the one in question. After looking at an extensive array of holders from many generations this one is in a class all by itself.
personally i am not commenting about the barcode or hologram, just the date, denom, company name etc on the obverse.
also i wouldn't go so far as to say that you have no business buying a coin because counterfeits can fool us. i am sure everyone can be fooled and any attempt at diverse authentication will
inevitably lead to being fooled since that is the main goal for the people making the fakes.
i personally like seeing these kinds of threads/discussions as it just reinforces what we are up against and how good the people are that have ill intentions. .
There are some slight variations in the font and the bar code is slightly taller. The letters look like they are mounted higher up in the slab in question. Also the stacking corners are square compared to the rounded ones but I haven't compared a lot of slabs before.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>There are some slight variations in the font and the bar code is slightly taller. The letters look like they are mounted higher up in the slab in question. Also the stacking corners are square compared to the rounded ones but I haven't compared a lot of slabs before. >>
Interesting observation on the square vs rounded corners...I also am not familiar with the different holder types if this was how PCGS did it at one time. I like the discussion so far, and I'm not convinced yet of this auction being legitimate.
I feel bad for our hosts to the lack of confidence an auction like this can bring to the service they provide. It's damaging to our hobby.
The stuff you describe all has to do with camera angles. The labels were taken with two different cameras and I am sure with two different set of settings. A slight angle on one or the other will throw those off.
The font does not look off to me. Specifically look and compare section by section. Date to date, PCGS to PCGS, 10C to 10C. It is the same font, spacing, etc. There are quite a few different slabs used over the years. Some have more square corners than others, and I really don't think that is a disqualifer. I wish I could see the mint mark better. There are only four mint marks for 1916-D and that would be the easiest way to make a determination from the images.
edited to remove my images, so they are not confused with the fake.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
The coin in question displays the rotated reverse found on genuine 16-D's. I'm not seeing why the coin is seen as questionable without being able to see it in hand. Or is this a bay thing?
<< <i>The coin in question displays the rotated reverse found on genuine 16-D's. I'm not seeing why the coin is seen as questionable without being able to see it in hand. Or is this a bay thing? >>
I think it's an eBay thing. Everyone assumes better coins are counterfeit until proven otherwise. Crappy photographs don't help reduce the suspicions.
The ccw rotation of the rev. is consistent with Die #1, and also appears to show the top of the D about half way up the nearest leaf. So far I don't see anything to make me think it's a fake.
Even with the better photos the font on the flip looks off to me. There are just way too many red flags here.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Edited to say definately the cert number for sure has been used in the past to pass a counterfeit. >>
If it seemed like there were a few red flags I'd say that's another big red one! It's not proof but it's enough that I'd sure stay away from taking the risk.
Of the 4 images posted here, 1 is FAKE (invalid barcodes), and 3 are Valid Barcodes.
1. ebay coin: FAKE. barcode translates to: 00563?5511340285 (should be 0049064018041741 ); the 6th digit is completely invalid. Also, comparing to the flickr image of the sandwiched counterfeit with the exact same serial number, this should be a newer style barcode with 22 digits, but it is the old 16 digit barcode.
2. fcloud coin: Valid Barcode. barcode is 000004906000 (these are all the visible digits) This appears to be a newer style PCGS barcode which holds 22 digits. It has 5 leading zeroes, then the 4096 coin series, then 2 more zeroes for padding, then should have 04 for G04, but we see the 000 and the 4 might be there but was masked out.
3. heritage coin: Valid Barcode. barcode is 0049064010 (I stopped there, all digits correct so far 4096.40/10...) (this was posted by Patches on the first page)
4. green bean coin: Valid Barcode. barcode is 0049064002702312 (matches 4096.40/02702312 ) (this was posted by MsMorrisine)
5. the sandwich fake on the flickr link (posted by 1Mike1 ) has what looks like a valid 22-digit barcode. However, the coin was a sandwich fake. So a Valid Barcode is no guarantee that the coin inside is genuine! (But probably an invalid barcode is a sure marker of a FAKE)
However, if you want a shorter explanation, there are 44 bars in the older codes, and 43 spaces in between. The first 2 bars and first 2 spaces are all narrow, which is the start code. The last 2 bars are wide/narrow with a narrow space between, which is the end code. This leaves 40 bars and 40 spaces in between. 5 bars or 5 spaces encode one digit, so these 40+40 encode 16 digits. The PCGS coin series code, grade, and serial number are 4+2+8 = 14 digits, so the extra first 2 digits are zeroes. The newer PCGS barcodes (starting somewhere between serial numbers 16 million and 18 million) have 22 digits in the pattern I described earlier. http://www.pcgs.com/barcode.html
The wikipedia link has a table which shows how each digit is encoded using wide or narrow bars or spaces, and the digits are interleaved.
Even shorter explanation: Just look at the first 12 black bars on one of the Valid Barcode slabs. First 2 are narrow (start code) Next 5 are nnWWn (0) [n = narrow, W = Wide] Next 5 are nnWnW (4) These are digits 1 and 3 (digits 2 and 4 are encoded in the width of the spaces between the black bars - you can think of these as the "white bars")
On the ebay coin, the first 7 bars are correct, but the next 5 are WnWnn which is a 5 instead of a 4.
example of Valid Barcode for 1916-D XF40 (green bean coin posted by Ms. Morrisine)
example of FAKE (invalid barcode) for 1916-D XF40 (ebay coin)
Finally, I also noticed that the spacing in the ebay barcode had 3 widths instead of 2. There is narrow, Wide, and "medium". Examples of this "medium" width space are the 4th and 7th spaces in the ebay barcode above. This is another way to detect a poorly made FAKE barcode. The Valid Barcodes only have 2 spacing widths.
Well that's enough for me to call B.S. on this auction. The same certification number, on the last counterfeit 1916-D auction to come out of the same area of Colorado. Nice job all. This is really scarey in my opinion. I have a feeling this person is a graphic artist, and they're only going to get better as we point out the most small things they're still doing wrong.
Duly reported to CCW- this is a known faked cert number. Asian made holder/label- they're known by the slightly off color paper and improper spacing on the letters in PCGS, not to mention botched barcode, as yosclimber pointed out.
Edit to add- sorry, didn't read all the posts- others beat me to the punch on this!
Great thread !! If this guy had obtained an original label from a crack-out artist, would the variation in the coin or the slab have been enough for most of us to detect this fake? SCARY STUFF.
<< <i>Pretty scary, since the rev. die rotation (ccw) appears to match that of die 1. Some sophisticated forgers are at work. >>
They are getting too good now. How easy it will be for them to make a slight adjustment to the spacing and it would have fooled all of us. PCGS should go at these sellers with everything they have. The entire security of their company is at stake. This guy is in the US and what he is doing is a very serious crime. FBI should go knocking..
PCGS is definitely aware of the fraudulent slab problem. As they note on their website, the Cert numbers are often available from public sources, such as online auction images. So it provides one level of security, but not perfect security. Similarly, the barcodes are also available on many public images, so they can be copied and reprinted if the images are good enough.
Also, PCGS switched to the "3 prong" slab style, which provides much better security against the sandwich faked 1916-D Mercury dimes, as the edge seam is no longer hidden by the slab.
Similar to tax reform, you have to keep adapting and moving the target to create cost barriers for thieves/crooks.
<< <i>I just taught myself how to read the barcodes!
Of the 4 images posted here, 1 is FAKE (invalid barcodes), and 3 are Valid Barcodes. >>
Outstanding! Being a puzzle lover, I read up on UPC and interleaved 2 of 5 barcodes to learn it too. Very educational. (I'll probably forget it next week.)
Comments
It will be interesting to see what other numismatic items he lists.
-Paul
<< <i>I'll say it again, it's fake. If anyone is convinced it's real, buy it off eBay. If it's real, I'll give you a $10,000 profit no matter what it goes for on eBay. I guarantee I won't be writing a check.
-Paul >>
Now that's tempting , i'm the underbidder ..or one of them @ just over 3k , kinda watching to see as theres still a couple of days
<< <i>I'll say it again, it's fake. If anyone is convinced it's real, buy it off eBay. If it's real, I'll give you a $10,000 profit no matter what it goes for on eBay. I guarantee I won't be writing a check.
-Paul >>
i just spent a good amount of time on the holder and my conclusion is the holder is not authentic.
the spacing of the letting and numbers does not match 1 single other holder for the blue background out of many generations of the holder
1 thing i've learned about coins, either it is or is not, there is no close...
.
<< <i>Why does everyone use the "someone died" line. It seems like that is a tell.
If the slab is fake getting pics of the mintmark won't help. They take a real 1916-P Dime and marry it to a 1917-D or other "D" mint reverse. The coin will look real.
Cut the slab in half, and out come 2 machined 1/2 dimes..trust me I've done it with some rare dates (thanks goodness the coins weren't mine) >>
One of the many reasons I like to buy raw coins.
type2,CCHunter.
Absolutely a fake slab.
The spacing on the font is wrong.
No question.
<< <i>I have a question. Can the good people here at PCGS chime in and say if this holder is ok from the sellers pics? >>
I don't think PCGS will make a statement regarding authenticity without actually examining the piece in hand; unless it was a blatantly obvious fake.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
none of my slabs have the letters that far apart...not counting the old slabs, which don't compare anyway...especially the space between P and C. those letters are very close together on every slab i have.
this one definitely had me fooled...it's a damn good fake at first glance. what's scary is that whoever made this will soon figure out how to get the kerning and tracking right...as their font looks pretty spot on.
Bob
My Early Large Cents
nm
thought i had found another holder with similar spacing/font
but upon examination they were not as close as i thought
.
<< <i>I still do not see anything wrong with this slab, especially with the blown up pictures. The hologram looks good too. It sure looks clean and well put together to me. Sure the font and barcode may be a little different but you really think with nearly 25 million labels printed there aren't periods where there is variation? Yes, I know there are times when an obvious holder, label, and font change has been made. But at the end of the day I picture these labels being printed on laser printers from a software program and common sense tells me that there will be periods of variance without strict 100% uniformity even for an official holder/label version. If this holder is no good, then I really have no business buying a coin then because it sure would have fooled me. >>
i have seen other counterfeit holders with spacing quite similar to the one in question. After looking at an extensive array of holders from many generations this one is in a class all by itself.
personally i am not commenting about the barcode or hologram, just the date, denom, company name etc on the obverse.
also i wouldn't go so far as to say that you have no business buying a coin because counterfeits can fool us. i am sure everyone can be fooled and any attempt at diverse authentication will
inevitably lead to being fooled since that is the main goal for the people making the fakes.
i personally like seeing these kinds of threads/discussions as it just reinforces what we are up against and how good the people are that have ill intentions.
.
Edited to remove label
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
a quote hanging above my desk for many years:
"Vision is the art of seeing what is invisible to others" Johnathan Swift 1667-1745
.
<< <i>There are some slight variations in the font and the bar code is slightly taller. The letters look like they are mounted higher up in the slab in question. Also the stacking corners are square compared to the rounded ones but I haven't compared a lot of slabs before. >>
Interesting observation on the square vs rounded corners...I also am not familiar with the different holder types if this was how PCGS did it at one time. I like the discussion so far, and I'm not convinced yet of this auction being legitimate.
I feel bad for our hosts to the lack of confidence an auction like this can bring to the service they provide. It's damaging to our hobby.
The stuff you describe all has to do with camera angles. The labels were taken with two different cameras and I am sure with two different set of settings. A slight angle on one or the other will throw those off.
The font does not look off to me. Specifically look and compare section by section. Date to date, PCGS to PCGS, 10C to 10C. It is the same font, spacing, etc. There are quite a few different slabs used over the years. Some have more square corners than others, and I really don't think that is a disqualifer. I wish I could see the mint mark better. There are only four mint marks for 1916-D and that would be the easiest way to make a determination from the images.
edited to remove my images, so they are not confused with the fake.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Garrow
<< <i>The coin in question displays the rotated reverse found on genuine 16-D's. I'm not seeing why the coin is seen as questionable without being able to see it in hand. Or is this a bay thing? >>
I think it's an eBay thing. Everyone assumes better coins are counterfeit until proven otherwise. Crappy photographs don't help reduce the suspicions.
here is an ex-DLRC coin
font/letter spacing is off.
compare the leading parts of the barcode where the coin number is and should be the same.
<< <i>I'm now changing mine to fake.
font/letter spacing is off.
compare the leading parts of the barcode where the coin number is and should be the same. >>
The dime is large too. It is perspective. You need to have the images the same size to compare the spacing.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
the gap between relative to the width of the letter is off.
anyway, the leading digits of the barcode are different. in both the old and new formats, they should be the same.
and if one is old and one is new... well, it is still the same encoding.
new format just has 3 leading / unused digits, then the coin number.
so somewhere the coin number should be encoded the same up front. I don't see any matches.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
i guess i should go ahead and post this link that someone else here provided a real eye opener
.
type2,CCHunter.
LINK
Edited to say definately the cert number for sure has been used in the past to pass a counterfeit.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>Edited to say definately the cert number for sure has been used in the past to pass a counterfeit. >>
If it seemed like there were a few red flags I'd say that's another big red one!
It's not proof but it's enough that I'd sure stay away from taking the risk.
Of the 4 images posted here, 1 is FAKE (invalid barcodes), and 3 are Valid Barcodes.
1. ebay coin: FAKE. barcode translates to: 00563?5511340285 (should be 0049064018041741 ); the 6th digit is completely invalid.
Also, comparing to the flickr image of the sandwiched counterfeit with the exact same serial number,
this should be a newer style barcode with 22 digits, but it is the old 16 digit barcode.
2. fcloud coin: Valid Barcode. barcode is 000004906000 (these are all the visible digits)
This appears to be a newer style PCGS barcode which holds 22 digits. It has 5 leading zeroes, then the 4096 coin series, then 2 more zeroes for padding,
then should have 04 for G04, but we see the 000 and the 4 might be there but was masked out.
3. heritage coin: Valid Barcode. barcode is 0049064010 (I stopped there, all digits correct so far 4096.40/10...)
(this was posted by Patches on the first page)
4. green bean coin: Valid Barcode. barcode is 0049064002702312 (matches 4096.40/02702312 )
(this was posted by MsMorrisine)
5. the sandwich fake on the flickr link (posted by 1Mike1 ) has what looks like a valid 22-digit barcode. However, the coin was a sandwich fake.
So a Valid Barcode is no guarantee that the coin inside is genuine!
(But probably an invalid barcode is a sure marker of a FAKE)
How to read barcodes?
I learned on wikipedia pretty quickly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleaved_2_of_5
However, if you want a shorter explanation, there are 44 bars in the older codes, and 43 spaces in between.
The first 2 bars and first 2 spaces are all narrow, which is the start code.
The last 2 bars are wide/narrow with a narrow space between, which is the end code.
This leaves 40 bars and 40 spaces in between. 5 bars or 5 spaces encode one digit, so these 40+40 encode 16 digits.
The PCGS coin series code, grade, and serial number are 4+2+8 = 14 digits, so the extra first 2 digits are zeroes.
The newer PCGS barcodes (starting somewhere between serial numbers 16 million and 18 million) have 22 digits
in the pattern I described earlier.
http://www.pcgs.com/barcode.html
The wikipedia link has a table which shows how each digit is encoded using wide or narrow bars or spaces,
and the digits are interleaved.
Even shorter explanation:
Just look at the first 12 black bars on one of the Valid Barcode slabs.
First 2 are narrow (start code)
Next 5 are nnWWn (0) [n = narrow, W = Wide]
Next 5 are nnWnW (4)
These are digits 1 and 3 (digits 2 and 4 are encoded in the width of the spaces between the black bars - you can think of these as the "white bars")
On the ebay coin, the first 7 bars are correct, but the next 5 are WnWnn which is a 5 instead of a 4.
example of Valid Barcode for 1916-D XF40 (green bean coin posted by Ms. Morrisine)
example of FAKE (invalid barcode) for 1916-D XF40 (ebay coin)
Finally, I also noticed that the spacing in the ebay barcode had 3 widths instead of 2. There is narrow, Wide, and "medium".
Examples of this "medium" width space are the 4th and 7th spaces in the ebay barcode above.
This is another way to detect a poorly made FAKE barcode.
The Valid Barcodes only have 2 spacing widths.
See also this thread from 2010:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=785783&STARTPAGE=1
It discusses a (free) website where you can upload your image, and the site will often be able to translate the barcode to the digits.
http://online-barcode-reader.com/
I tried it and it worked on one of my images; failed on another.
<< <i>.
i guess i should go ahead and post this link that someone else here provided a real eye opener
. >>
Wow, good info here and big eye opener.
Edit to add- sorry, didn't read all the posts- others beat me to the punch on this!
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>listing removed
Darn, I had my checkbook out and pen in hand.
-Paul
<< <i>
Franklin-Lover's Forum
Commems and Early Type
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Great info here.....
<< <i>Pretty scary, since the rev. die rotation (ccw) appears to match that of die 1. Some sophisticated forgers are at work. >>
They are getting too good now. How easy it will be for them to make a slight adjustment to the spacing and it would have fooled all of us. PCGS should go at these sellers with everything they have. The entire security of their company is at stake. This guy is in the US and what he is doing is a very serious crime. FBI should go knocking..
My Early Large Cents
As they note on their website, the Cert numbers are often available from public sources, such as online auction images.
So it provides one level of security, but not perfect security.
Similarly, the barcodes are also available on many public images, so they can be copied and reprinted if the images are good enough.
Also, PCGS switched to the "3 prong" slab style, which provides much better security against the sandwich faked 1916-D Mercury dimes,
as the edge seam is no longer hidden by the slab.
Similar to tax reform, you have to keep adapting and moving the target to create cost barriers for thieves/crooks.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>I just taught myself how to read the barcodes!
Of the 4 images posted here, 1 is FAKE (invalid barcodes), and 3 are Valid Barcodes. >>
Outstanding! Being a puzzle lover, I read up on UPC and interleaved 2 of 5 barcodes to learn it too. Very educational. (I'll probably forget it next week.)
Nice work, yosclimber!
Lance.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1916-D-Mercury-Dime-/261021694593?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3cc61afa81
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
RIP Mom- 1932-2012