Value of damaged key dates?
Coinshowman
Posts: 148 ✭✭✭
Ok, I'll confess a dirty little secret. Sometimes I'll consider or even (gasp) buy a damaged or impared expensive coin. Usually when I'm completing a particular series. I've heard and largely agree with avoiding bad coins but sometimes the budget just won't stretch far enough to cover that coin I need to fill a hole. So, my question is this - if you were buying such a damaged or impared coin, what would you pay compared to established value guides? For example, for a raw coin with XF details, would you pay half of the graysheet XF value?
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I usually start two grades back if the damage is not severe.
So if your coin has XF details, start with F bid and then offer a percentage of that....usually sellers are motivated to move such coins.
This doesn't always work but it will get you close.
For most commonly traded key date coins, there already exists a "price."
Quite a few dealers make a strong living from trading such material, and their tables are always crowded.
What does that tell you, lol
Obviously it's better to start low and then wiggle up if you have to.
Damaged key dates are usually a quick sale if you can get them at the right price.
Our host and NGC have auction prices realized sections that include impaired 'details' coins. Check out Heritage as well. Depending on the coin, the difference between original and impaired can vary greatly.
Do the limbo rock!
I sold one graded detailed coin for a friend once, I won't touch them myself. it took 4 months to sell it at a heavily discounted price. if I was you i would just save up for one that will grade
I imagine it would depend, to a large degree, on what the damage is.
Not sure there is s good rule of thumb on this scenario. If you take this route to filling your collection I would wager you will struggle to sell the problem coins in the future. Seems a recipe for regret buying.
I like coinpalice’s sdvice. Save up until you can avoid problem coins. Best wishes in your search
I think it really matters on what the issue is.... I mean severely cleaned is a little different in my book then a super small scratch on the reverse down near the bottom that's hard to see but that's just my opinion
HAPPY COLLECTING
It obviously matters what the damage is and how severe. It also matters what the spread is between grades. Lastly, it matters how readily the coin is available problem-free. As others have stated, you should be able to look up past sales to get an idea. A damaged coin’s value relies heavily on its relative eye appeal for the given grade.
There is a market in these and I knew a dealer who specialized in problem coins. His goal get somewhere between cost and retail. Just don’t pay much for them lol.
Once at a show he confided in us “I made $3500 on that coin sold but scared he might come back tomorrow and want his money back.” He was told by a dealer nearby: “he got it well below CWT I would never refund it / he would have to get an attorney. Sight seen sales are final.”
I would say that if you put that damaged coin in your set and that set had all problem free coins. you might have put a coin in the space, but you have not completed your set. It may be tempting to do, but it may also take value away from the set if you are trying to sell. I agree with the others to say just wait.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Normally, I would wait.... however, as has been mentioned, a lot depends on the issue with the coin and how scarce they are...Buying an impaired coin is temporarily satisfying, but will always leave an ache for a good one. Cheers, RickO
I have known a few dealers who used this business model. Some of them were well loved.
John Ashby was a well-known dealer in the Early American Coppers Club more than a couple decades ago. He specialized in corroded copper, and his coins became known as "John Ashby coppers." Everyone realized what he was selling, and he had his customers who often were those who collected varieties on a budget. He was missed by many when he passed on.
I knew another dealer who had a huge inventory of scrace to rare problem coins. This was after TPG became pretty much the standard, and he had his inventory graded by the "not ready for prime time grading services." He had an impressive aray of coins. if you wanted most any early type coin, including a 1796 Quarter, it was there. He had an 1804 quarter that was farily sharp but covered in AT. He told me, "You know some dealers tell me I've got a multi-million dollar inventory here ...."
My thought was "Yes, but ..."
I don't know how these guys stay in business when they charge high prices that ignore the problems. Heck, sometimes I wonder how some of those guys still have kneecaps once the buyers find out what they have.
Sometimes I buy a collection and there are damaged key dates included along with the nicer material. As a long-time collector, my instinct is to sell them immediately. I have done well selling the damaged pieces on eBay with no reserve.
Sometimes they sell "too high," and a few times I actually felt guilty enough to ask the buyer if they were sure they wanted a damaged coin for that price. The answer was usually something like, "I only care about the details, and I can't afford an undamaged XF." There is a market for this type of material, as @Cougar1978 pointed out.
These comments show a level of integrity which some dealers sorely lack.
I would not pay VG money for a damaged XF. The discount would have to be drastic,
I would get the problem free VG or G.
Of course it all depends on the type and severity of the damage.
There would have to be no doubt that it is what it is like having a clear date,.....
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I once had a 12 sided 1864 Dime that probably graded VG. Put it on ebay...started it at 99 cents and it sold for over $400!
Harshly clean No! Cleaned maybe, bent scratch dinged up No,No,No. But that's just me dumb Type2.
Hoard the keys.
Nothing is scarce enough to buy broken!
For the most part that is true, but if all or almost examples of the something are "broken," sometimes you buy it ... as long as it does not cost too much. I learned that when I was working on my "at least one coin for each British king or queen set." Some of the hammered coins are almost always defective for one reason or another.
When comes to U.S, coins, however, my motto has been, "if I can't afford a decent one, I'll pass."
That depends upon your budget. Some collectors have very limited finances and are happy to get a damaged key date as a filler. Also depends on the extent or type of the damage vs the price.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I own a cleaned coin that I believe is the finest known and lm not alone in that opinion. Its an 1805 B-5 quarter. AU details cleaned.
My point is there can be good reasons for going for these coins. But proceed with extra caution.
There is an 1804 Draped Bust silver dollar with the letter "D" stamped into one of the clouds on the reverse that is an impaired coin that is straight graded and worth millions of dollars that would seem to be broken.
I would "settle for it", if I had to.
I once owned what had been the finest known known example of the 1806 C-2 half cent. This the more common of the very scarce "Small 6, Stems" variety that is noted in the "Red Book."
The coin was the discovery specimen, which dated from the 1880s, and had been the finest known example of this scarce variety for many years. It had once been in the Brobstain collection and sale book, published by Stacks’ in the early ‘60s, and it had been Leland Rogers’ Type coin. Rogers was a type collector who filled the slots with the finest known rare coins instead of the high grade common dates.
Sometime after it was sold from the Rogers Collection, some idiot cleaned it. The coin was skillfully re-toned, but the damage had been done. The piece still had some of its semi P-L surface, which was natural, but the original patina was gone.
I bought the piece in the early 1990s because it was the only chance I would ever have to get a sharp example of that die variety for my half cent set. When I was dealer, I sold the piece (and made a good buck on it) to another dealer who collected it for while and then let go to help finance his child though college. He did not indicate that he regretted buying the coin from me, so I think he landed on his feet too.
Yes, you can buy “special” problem coins, but you have to be careful. Here is photo transcribed from a slide.
Neat story Bill. Never say never, right?
I can understand how what I call "The tyranny of the hole" can make people buy coins that they "need" for that demanding hole.
However, I would not buy a "details" coin because that appellation will follow that coin forever.
I suppose if it was DIRT cheap, I'd ....consider... it.
AND... if I had that need to fill holes, I guess I'd be forced to.
If I'm looking for something in particular and can't find anything BUT damaged or detail coins, I'll just switch my search to something else.
More and more, the scrutiny of coins is becoming demanding of such proximity to "perfection" that if one considers ever selling it, they are quite likely to be disappointed.
I don't need more disappointments than I've already had.
I'd ....study... an imperfect coin just to see what I could learn. But buy one? Nope.
Are you in some kind of time constraint? Wait a bit longer for a keeper for little extra cost. I would look at holes with admiration for the challenge it represents
Meaning you've done well up to a few holes left 
Stick with your standard for overall happy ending
How much?
As little as possible
BHNC #203
I could see scenarios where a collector wanted to fill a VF-EF Lincoln book and just needed the 09 S VDB. Due to the amount of fakes I would find it hard to buy the coin raw, or to crack out a $600-800 straight-graded coin to fill a book. I could see buying a graded details coin with minor issues for under 300 and crack it to fill the book. I could pick several series where this might be an option to fill a raw book.
Any thoughts on what an 1895-O dime with XF details, environmental damage from being in the ground would be worth as a fractional part of retail? Good color, no dings, just been in the ground. Found with metal detector by someone I know.
Some are saying that the coin would straight grade as an XF if sent in but I know better. Dug silver coins always have numerous very fine surface scratches from abrading with the silica in dirt.These scratches can be seen with 10x glass even though naked eye appearance can be very good.
Would an 1895-O XF details as I've described be worth 2/3 of retail? 3/4 of retail? 1/2 of retail? less?
I heard a story that the owner of this coin got offered $100 for it by a B&M dealer....My response to an offer like that for an 1895-O dime with XF details would be, "Do you want to buy it or steal it?"
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I would pay 1/2 of retail
BHNC #203
How about a nice picture?
Problem coins aren't necessarily the "problem" that some here make them out to be.
If you buy them right and price them right, you will not have them for long.
I have sold many "problem" coins.
The key is getting a feel for what they will sell for, and make your buy offer accordingly.
If you are a dealer, and choose not to deal in them, I think that is great.
I can understand how for many the idea of having problem coins in their cases would pollute their brand or image.
I see them as an opportunity to make a sale, and since I don't misrepresent them when I sell them, I have no issues.
The money I make from selling junk, while not my idea of a lasting numismatic legacy, spends just the same as money made from selling MS66 and MS67 gems.
And in a lot of cases (no pun intended) the junk is gone by the end of the show and I still have the blazing gems.
Don't underestimate the market for junk/problem coins.
It's real.
It ain't pretty but the numismatic ecosystem likely needs catfish as well as apex predators.
Junk R-6's are still R-6's.
Like this 1? Realized over 5K on ebay!
I've paid $6500 for repaired Gobrecht and over $8000 for cleaned high relief $20. Someone offer $15k for high relief so I sold one.
Here's the coin that made me ask the question in the first place, sorry don't know how to linkafy it. It's a $2.5 gold indian, 1911D. Clearly a jewelry piece and lots of detail left on it, but with nothing ugly like solder or holes. It went for $1475, quite a bit more than I'd pay for it. Oh well, one will come along one of these days.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1911-D-U-S-2-5-INDIAN-HEAD-QUARTER-EAGLE-KEY-DATE-GOLD-COIN-DAMAGED-NR-1111/232776869784?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/35626247_Large.jpg
Above link is a classic example of why your thread title is a great question. Disappointed that it didn't straight grade. With a low mintage and fewer than 100 known , my hopes were, once again dashed... by submitting.
I'm starting to wonder why I waste my time and money in this endeavor. But then again, what's it worth ?
It's a problem. Spot price ?
The 1885 didn't fare much better. Both "damaged". How to determine value ?
For me, it's just a matter of accepting the fair market value in auction... minus the juice (or fees) , of course.
My problem is the auction houses don't want my problems. So it's ebay fodder.