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A "safe" 1933 $20?
CaptHenway
Posts: 31,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
Coin World is quoting a Mint spokesman as saying that they know of the whereabouts of another 1933 $20 in the U.S. but have no intention of pursuing it.
I would assume that it is in either the ANS or the ANA Museum. I see the curator of the ANA Museum from time to time and he has not mentioned it, so I would assume that it is in the ANS.
Anybody heard anything?
TD
Edited to add:
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2018/05/monday-morning-brief-for-may-21-2018.html
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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Nothing like selective prosecution of the law
/eyeroll
There isn't a 1933 $20 in the ANS's databases and I haven't seen one in their vault nor heard any mention of it from their curators so I'd wager that there isn't one there.
The mint would not be the governmental entity that would be involved. The mint is just a governmental factory and, today, sales outlet. Is this just another numismatic urban legend?
That's why they don't confiscate 1913 V-nix.
I'm screwing with the "deep state", not the guy who used to own one.
Can we get a link to this story?
I want to be able to recognize the Mint spokesman's name when he takes over Guiliani's job.
There has always been word of another one. I suspect if they tried to auction it, the message would be different.
Link added to OP
That link lasts appx 1/10 second if I click it.
Have "they" heard about it?
It takes the fun out ownership when you can't acknowledge you have it or can share with other collectors.
This case is more in an ever growing lists of ways the government finds to waste taxpayers' money. If they would spend some money on cracking down on those who distribute Chinese counterfeits, we would all be better off.
The coin is in private hands. Over five years ago In a deposition in our case, I named an individual who I believed then owned the coin. There was apparently no follow up. It seems now that the Mint policy is to only pursue anyone unfortunate enough to contact them.
Thanks for posting about the other coins still out there. Then, what I enjoy most is reading replies from unidentified folks that provide additional input w/o backup.
Here is my "story"...There are actually nine coins still out there. I know two of the owners and at one time at a major coin show they played $20 "whist" in a hotel room. After losing, that fellow started carrying his example as a pocket piece. The last time I saw him his coin was XF. The other coin has been worn in public by the wife of the owner. The coin is in a rope bezel. The outward side of the pendant shows a coin dated 1928. It is a shaved down genuine coin. When she flips the pendant over, there is the 1933 in all its glory! Obviously, I cannot ID these two owners.
I love this type of suspense
I'll bet there's way more out there than we'll ever know of.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@Paradisefound
My post is a joke. I'm a curious fellow and get annoyed with famous and well known (?) folks who pass "inside" info without backing it up in some way or educating/including other members. It's like when three members talk about a 3 million dollar coin they each owned at one time. I guess a detective can search auction history. I'm not a detective and don't have time. I wish to be "spoon-fed" so the "story" behind the coin becomes part of numismatic history FOR ALL OF US "OUTSIDERS."
hmm...undisclosed sources from anonymous source?
Wonder when one or more of the 1964-D Peace dollars is going to show up?
I still wonder if the Farouk example is owned by the US Gov't....for half price. Why is there mystery about the location/ownership of that coin? Or is there no mystery and I have just been under a rock?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Was the Sotheby's / Stacks piece actually the Farouk coin? I've heard conflicting stories.
Presumably the "real" Farouk coin is legal due to export documentation, even if not the one sold.
Would be an interesting legal case if a different one showed up with a letter from the Egyptian Junta.
This is why I have not contacted the mint.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
The insiders are protecting other insiders "in possession of stolen property".
I am apparently part of an ongoing conspiracy.
My friends call me Rick, but so far nobody's call me RICO.
Yes, that is the answer. At one time, when gold bullion was illegal to own I had the pleasure of dealing with Saudi Discs under the table. It made collecting/dealing them even more "special." However, playing show and tell with a 1933 or 1964-D must be an unbelievable thrill.
Perhaps one day more stories will come out. The OP is tantalizing.
If there exists such a coin, my guess is that it rests in very strong hands that aren't concerned about the value, but rather, the uniqueness of it all. Perhaps a wealthy coin Dealer? In the same way major paintings are stolen in the art world that never see the light of day for generations, the same might be the case here.
It's "owner" might just get his jollies stiffing the government.
For those who don't know what the "Saudi Discs" are ...
The 4P is my second favorite "coin" in the world. I will always consider them to be U.S. Mint Gold ingots. Several different dies were used to make these.
I believe @RogerB did a write up on these somewhere.
Gee whiz...you mean our gvt never 'flip flopped' before? I for one would not trust a word emitted by any gvt official regarding the 1933 Saintys
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
There's an extensive research article on them ready to be published....All that is required are the means to do so.
What about a "Go Fund Me" page? PM me I'll send you $20 as a start.
Really. I'll bet the Newman Library would fund your project too.
Interesting topic, certainly worthy of ITS OWN THREAD!!!!!!
PM sent to the op!
So would it be the US Treasury that could pursue the recovery of the coin? And if so, what would be the legal theory or basis to confiscate it?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
They were never officially issued so any examples in private hands must have been stolen from the US government.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Perry Hall... That may not be completely correct. Was there not a brief window of opportunity that may have been hours or even afew days whereby the 1933 Saint could have been obtained legally before it became illegal. And even if they were legally obtained through an exchange, an argument could be asserted that they could be exempt from confiscation based on numismatic interest. I don't think the Government has a Res Ipsa case to establish that the coin must have been stolen.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I was only saying what the government's rational was when they confiscate these coins in response to your question. I never said I agree with it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I know a person who has one, but is loathe to send it in.
He has it in a Capital holder, with his 1974 aluminum cent, the 1913 V 5 cent proof, the 1893-S Barber dime, a 1966 silver Washington quarter, a 1963 Kennedy half, and the 1964-D Peace Dollar. It fits well in the set, so he doesn't want to break open the $2 plastic case, as 1 of the plastic screws in stripped.
I will send him a new plastic screw if he promises to send me a photo of all the coins.
Send me his address,,,,,
You are likely to screw yourself out of the postage
Regarding this topic, I have a question that I've pondered about. If I had this coin to submit to our host, would they grade it and send it back to me? Maybe a silly question, but just asking !!!
Well... according to the OP, and some reputable coin dealers, there is enough anecdotal evidence to support the existence of the coin(s) in private hands. I am sure that the opportunity to surreptitiously transfer ownership exists. As long as they are not flaunted publicly, they will continue to move on the 'dark circuit'. Cheers, RickO
I would never submit such a coin for grading. It opens up a huge can of worms that could very well end up with you losing the cion. I think that if you have a 1933 double eagle, "under the radar" would be the best policy.
As we see daily in the news, the Federal Government has rogue elements in it that have the power to subject private citizens to prosecution if those government officials think that there is something in it for them. You might have one part of the government choose to ignore the fact that you have a coin with a shadowy background while another decides to pursue the case to the fullest extent of the law or legal precedent. Once you have legal problems with the Government fighting the case in court can cost you far more than your net worth. That’s why some people have pled out rather than fight it.
Hello, Mr. TPG lawyer, here's my subpoena for the submission that contained the coin identified by insert number 1234567890.
I have no doubt that @homerunhall or @MarkSalzberg would not hesitate an instant in handing the coin back, and it would be an act of friendship as much or more as simply avoiding a tragic business situation for everyone concerned.
@ColonelJessup said: "I have no doubt that @homerunhall or @MarkSalzberg would not hesitate an instant in handing the coin back, and it would be an act of friendship as much or more as simply avoiding a tragic business situation for everyone concerned."
I don't think any TPGS would do more than take a look - just for the exciting experience. Some coins are "poison!"
I write this from personal experience. Both instances happened decades ago and most involved are dead. While at ANACS, Mr. Hoskins examined two "illegal-to-own" coins outside our office and told the owners of both coins that ANACS would not accept them as it could damage the relationship of ANACs and the ANA with the government. He WOULD NOT tell me what one of the coins was. The other was a 1964-D Peace dollar. Since both dealers were from the DC area, one of the coins may have been a 1933 $20 as mentioned above. However, I have always believed that the other coin was an aluminum cent. Unfortunately, I was not invited to either party.
I'd hate to have a coin I couldn't share with the forum.
Pass.
.
I'd rather have a private photographer image my 1933 $20 and not be left with nothing but a $2,000,000 TrueView.
Pretend I just sold you one for spot and think again.
Or edit your post to add an ironic emoji of your choice
Not saying this is the case in any of the examples mentioned above....
But you have to wonder if SOME of the rumors of "great, illegal, rarities" are just fakes and knockoffs that people THINK are real, and may never be truly authenticated because of the fear of giving away their location and existence?
Or, maybe the odd mischievous collector tries to introduce such rumors with innuendo and a quick glance at a reasonably good fake or facsimile.....
You can serve the local cuisine if you like. I wouldn't try it on copper, but poi doesn't tone gold.
not to my knowledge
The coins were "stolen" in the sense that Mint employee(s) sold them without authorization. This was, in fact, common practice for the Mint and "preferred customers" back in the day. I think almost all the coins trace back to Israel Switt, a preferred customer. The only problem here was rather than a pre-release sale, it ended up being an unreleased sale.
To my knowledge, none of the purchasers of the coins were intending to steal them. They just were accidentally turned into thieves when they were ordered melted.
The folks who had these coins were extremely knowledgeable so not a chance.
IS2 - I agree with your above post.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Well the guys at the mint asked to authenticate our coins to see if they were not fakes so they at least claimed they weren’t certain if they were real. Of course, it all could have been part of their plan to take them and just keep them. Hmm......