@larryallen73 said:
Bird was an interesting player. Is he top 10 all time on most people's lists? I would never think to compare him to Lebron as they played different games at different times and with vastly different teammates. Bird had multiple HOFers on his team and Lebron has played with maybe one HOFer. As for the Lebron v. MJ debate it seems like a never ending debate. There are pros and cons to each and it's certainly not clear that either side has a better argument in my opinion. Similar to Magic v. Bird - pros and cons on each side.
I believe that most fans of the game would place Bird on the top 10. Wilt is worthy of the debate on best of all time.
the thing we need to ask ourselves about these players when considering their greatness is simple: Did they fundamentally change or transform the way the game is played, or the way that Teams had to play against them??
@keets said:
the thing we need to ask ourselves about these players when considering their greatness is simple: Did they fundamentally change or transform the way the game is played, or the way that Teams had to play against them??
I would come at it another way and ask: Am I biased because , a guy plays on my team( Larry Bird for me), a guy plays against my team ( Magic Johnson played against my 80's era Celtics but I was fond of the whole dynamic and liked him because of that i think) the guy or his team is linked to some emotional time in my life (who was your dads's favorite if you watched games together ,went to games with your wife or son etc blah blah, learned to love the sport during some epic run of your team , and am I too young to have seen the guy play so have no feel for his greatness or lack thereof .
I think its easy to add points to your guy or subtract from the other guy unconsciously for personal reasons .
Everyone has a favorite , most have a guy they hate , and the biggest stars are usually in one camp or another .
@stevek said:
Very interesting Bird vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.
Very interesting Jordan vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.
I think everyone presented excellent, no make that superb, no make that outstanding, points as to why their particular favorite NBA player is the second best NBA player of all time.
I'm just glad that we all fully agree, and that there is no debate whatsoever, that Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest NBA player of all time. I think it's absolutely wonderful to see such total and complete agreement in this forum for a change.
Wilt is #2 behind Jordan in career PPG! So yes, he was pretty good.
If only Wilt coulda hit more free throws. LOL
Pasted:
List of records and feats:
Chamberlain holds 72 NBA records, 68 by himself. Among his records are several that are considered unbreakable, such as averaging 22.9 rebounds for a career or 50.4 points per game in a season, scoring 100 points or 55 rebounds in a single game, scoring 65 or more points 15 times, 50 or more points 118 times. During Chamberlain's time, defensive statistics like blocks and steals had not been recorded yet. However, according to Jack Ramsay, "Harvey [Pollack] said he used to tell one of his statisticians to keep track of Wilt's blocks in big games... One night, they got up to 25."
He was a force. It didn't hurt that he was the only 7 footer....now they are a dime a dozen!
What you failed to mention was the fact that there were no players over 5'9" while Wilt played!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Coinstartled said:
I believe that most fans of the game would place Bird on the top 10. Wilt is worthy of the debate on best of all time.
Maybe but it's a crowded "top 10" I think:
MJ
Lebron
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Kobe
Russell
Big O
Tim Duncan
I am not saying Bird doesn't belong above but who is he clearly above out of those 10? Kobe? Duncan? Shaq? My only point is it's not clear he's in the top 10 to me.
Oh ya, an ESPN had Hakeem in the top 10 of all time. They had bird at #6 which seems high to me.
That doesn't even factor in guys like Jerry West or what about the guy that has revolutionized basketball, Steph Curry!? Or other current studs like KD?
A redraft with all these players in their prime in today’s game would be a blast. Guys like KD would go higher then their all time rankings just because of his size and skill set and mismatches. He would go top 5 I would think
M
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
i've been reading this thread and now it's time for me to chime in.......from a different angle.
only one person in the history of the NBA scored more points than Karl Malone did, yet his name is never mentioned when an "all-time greats" discussion pops up. this one is no different. reason being, he didn't win a ring. if he won an NBA Championship three times, his name would be bandied about like crazy in threads like this. but as it stands, it doesn't matter if he was the best power forward of all-time not named Tim Duncan, and it doesn't matter that he played on a stellar team not quite good enough to win it all. all that seems to matter to almost everyone is that he never once reached the pinnacle of his sport, therefore his name collects dust.
i get it. really, i do. but here's what i don't get.
if you're going to use championships as a barometer, you best not be a hypocrite and discount 6-0 vs 3-5 when talking about MJ & LBJ. and let's face it, it took arguably the clutchest shot in the history of the sport by Ray Allen to prevent it from being 2-6. if he somehow makes it to the finals again this year, it'll undoubtedly be 3-6. so we're talking about a guy who would die before he would allow you to beat him in the NBA Finals, juxtaposed with someone who has lost 5 times and came up smaller than mini-me in 2011 against the Mavericks. i will never be able to remove that gross visual from my head. LeBron played timid and scared, and he deferred to Dwyane Wade at all cost as his team gagged the final three games of the series. and we're really comparing him to Michael Jordan? i'm trying very hard not to laugh over here.
bottom line: some of you guys can't have it both ways
@stevek said:
Very interesting Bird vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.
Very interesting Jordan vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.
I think everyone presented excellent, no make that superb, no make that outstanding, points as to why their particular favorite NBA player is the second best NBA player of all time.
I'm just glad that we all fully agree, and that there is no debate whatsoever, that Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest NBA player of all time. I think it's absolutely wonderful to see such total and complete agreement in this forum for a change.
Wilt is #2 behind Jordan in career PPG! So yes, he was pretty good.
If only Wilt coulda hit more free throws. LOL
Pasted:
List of records and feats:
Chamberlain holds 72 NBA records, 68 by himself. Among his records are several that are considered unbreakable, such as averaging 22.9 rebounds for a career or 50.4 points per game in a season, scoring 100 points or 55 rebounds in a single game, scoring 65 or more points 15 times, 50 or more points 118 times. During Chamberlain's time, defensive statistics like blocks and steals had not been recorded yet. However, according to Jack Ramsay, "Harvey [Pollack] said he used to tell one of his statisticians to keep track of Wilt's blocks in big games... One night, they got up to 25."
He was a force. It didn't hurt that he was the only 7 footer....now they are a dime a dozen!
What you failed to mention was the fact that there were no players over 5'9" while Wilt played!
@stevek said:
Very interesting Bird vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.
Very interesting Jordan vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.
I think everyone presented excellent, no make that superb, no make that outstanding, points as to why their particular favorite NBA player is the second best NBA player of all time.
I'm just glad that we all fully agree, and that there is no debate whatsoever, that Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest NBA player of all time. I think it's absolutely wonderful to see such total and complete agreement in this forum for a change.
Wilt is #2 behind Jordan in career PPG! So yes, he was pretty good.
If only Wilt coulda hit more free throws. LOL
Pasted:
List of records and feats:
Chamberlain holds 72 NBA records, 68 by himself. Among his records are several that are considered unbreakable, such as averaging 22.9 rebounds for a career or 50.4 points per game in a season, scoring 100 points or 55 rebounds in a single game, scoring 65 or more points 15 times, 50 or more points 118 times. During Chamberlain's time, defensive statistics like blocks and steals had not been recorded yet. However, according to Jack Ramsay, "Harvey [Pollack] said he used to tell one of his statisticians to keep track of Wilt's blocks in big games... One night, they got up to 25."
He was a force. It didn't hurt that he was the only 7 footer....now they are a dime a dozen!
What you failed to mention was the fact that there were no players over 5'9" while Wilt played!
According to the above website link, when Wilt entered the league, the average height of an NBA center was 6' 9.7"
In 2014 (last year on the list) the average height of an NBA center was 6' 11.1" - an increase of only an inch and a half.
I have read the stupid statement that there were no other 7 foot players when Wilt was in the league and its just idiotic. Wilt didn't dominate because he was the only tall guy, he dominated because he was tall and an incredible athlete and competitor.
He had a 2-3 inch advantage over the average center who was about 6'10", now the average center is 6'11".
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Which would you want as a GM to lead you team in a single game with everything on the line?
And no stipulations (like who the teammates are, venue, referees officiating, ESPN coverage time, era and style of play, etc).
Which would you want as a GM to lead you team in a single game with everything on the line?
And no stipulations (like who the teammates are, venue, referees officiating, ESPN coverage time, era and style of play, etc).
One game, everything on the line.
While all 3 are great...if I could only have one....it would be MJ.
Which would you want as a GM to lead you team in a single game with everything on the line?
And no stipulations (like who the teammates are, venue, referees officiating, ESPN coverage time, era and style of play, etc).
One game, everything on the line.
While all 3 are great...if I could only have one....it would be MJ.
For only one game he would be my pick as well
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Had a Ray Alen jump shot, a Kyrie Irving Jump shot and a Drsymind Green suspension in-game 5 not happened LeBron James likely would be 1-7 In the FInals.
Which would you want as a GM to lead you team in a single game with everything on the line?
And no stipulations (like who the teammates are, venue, referees officiating, ESPN coverage time, era and style of play, etc).
One game, everything on the line.
LeBron in a heartbeat. MJ didn't do squat until Pippen came along (remember the Jordanaires.)
James is a one man wrecking crew who makes it to the finals regardless of the supporting cast.
@1970s said:
Larry and Magic played in the team basketball era.
MJ started the one on one basketball era.
Lebron plays in the non-team basketball era that was created by MJ.
Loved watching the Lakers and Celtics play team basketball.
Watching basketball today is very difficult for me.
Very nicely worded summation of my exact feelings. Thank you.
The 80’s to early 90’s I could watch NBA basketball non stop
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
I also like the season where he averaged more than 48 minutes per game having played every minute of every game and overtime.
Many people can't wrap their heads around the fact people who played before they were born could actually be good.
If you read through the comments on YouTube, a lot of people watching the "NBA Larry Bird Ultimate Mixtape" who had never seen Bird play were very surprised by what they saw.
Edited to add: if you haven't watched it, It is well worth your time.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
I also like the season where he averaged more than 48 minutes per game having played every minute of every game and overtime.
Many people can't wrap their heads around the fact people who played before they were born could actually be good.
If you read through the comments on YouTube, a lot of people watching the "NBA Larry Bird Ultimate Mixtape" who had never seen Bird play were very surprised by what they saw.
Edited to add: if you haven't watched it, It is well worth your time.
Larry Bird is my favorite player to ever step foot on a basketball court. I had the pleasure of watching his career and seeing him play in person a few times. I do not believe him to be the greatest player in the history of the game but I don't think that's an insult, either.
I tell people under thirty this all the time: The funny thing about today's NBA is that the teams that seem to win consistently are the ones that play like EVERY team played in the 80s; good rotational team defense and a ball that snaps around from player to player on just about every possession. It's amazing how much better any team looks when they just stop dribbling.
And to wrap up my thoughts on this great discussion, IF there's one bad thing I'll say about LeBron James it is that he seems to not understand the value of a team or that basketball is a team sport. Maybe he doesn't have to - he has won plenty on HIS terms - because of his immense talent. However, he's so dismissive of his teammates and coaches that I think he's left more than crumbs on the table. In fact, I truly believe if he had built something in one spot instead of three (Cleveland or Miami) and cultivated a team around him he could have been threatening Bill Russell's ring totals when all was said and done. Still, this could have been predicted, right? His goal from the beginning was to be a global icon rather than the greatest basketball player. I'd say he succeeded in one already and is worthy of the discussion for the second, anyway. On his own terms.
Maybe that's just the way he wanted it.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Comments
I believe that most fans of the game would place Bird on the top 10. Wilt is worthy of the debate on best of all time.
the thing we need to ask ourselves about these players when considering their greatness is simple: Did they fundamentally change or transform the way the game is played, or the way that Teams had to play against them??
I would come at it another way and ask: Am I biased because , a guy plays on my team( Larry Bird for me), a guy plays against my team ( Magic Johnson played against my 80's era Celtics but I was fond of the whole dynamic and liked him because of that i think) the guy or his team is linked to some emotional time in my life (who was your dads's favorite if you watched games together ,went to games with your wife or son etc blah blah, learned to love the sport during some epic run of your team , and am I too young to have seen the guy play so have no feel for his greatness or lack thereof .
I think its easy to add points to your guy or subtract from the other guy unconsciously for personal reasons .
Everyone has a favorite , most have a guy they hate , and the biggest stars are usually in one camp or another .
What you failed to mention was the fact that there were no players over 5'9" while Wilt played!
Maybe but it's a crowded "top 10" I think:
MJ
Lebron
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Kobe
Russell
Big O
Tim Duncan
I am not saying Bird doesn't belong above but who is he clearly above out of those 10? Kobe? Duncan? Shaq? My only point is it's not clear he's in the top 10 to me.
Oh ya, an ESPN had Hakeem in the top 10 of all time. They had bird at #6 which seems high to me.
That doesn't even factor in guys like Jerry West or what about the guy that has revolutionized basketball, Steph Curry!? Or other current studs like KD?
It's a big "top 10" to me.
On your list I would have Larry tied with Magic.
A redraft with all these players in their prime in today’s game would be a blast. Guys like KD would go higher then their all time rankings just because of his size and skill set and mismatches. He would go top 5 I would think
M
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
i've been reading this thread and now it's time for me to chime in.......from a different angle.
only one person in the history of the NBA scored more points than Karl Malone did, yet his name is never mentioned when an "all-time greats" discussion pops up. this one is no different. reason being, he didn't win a ring. if he won an NBA Championship three times, his name would be bandied about like crazy in threads like this. but as it stands, it doesn't matter if he was the best power forward of all-time not named Tim Duncan, and it doesn't matter that he played on a stellar team not quite good enough to win it all. all that seems to matter to almost everyone is that he never once reached the pinnacle of his sport, therefore his name collects dust.
i get it. really, i do. but here's what i don't get.
if you're going to use championships as a barometer, you best not be a hypocrite and discount 6-0 vs 3-5 when talking about MJ & LBJ. and let's face it, it took arguably the clutchest shot in the history of the sport by Ray Allen to prevent it from being 2-6. if he somehow makes it to the finals again this year, it'll undoubtedly be 3-6. so we're talking about a guy who would die before he would allow you to beat him in the NBA Finals, juxtaposed with someone who has lost 5 times and came up smaller than mini-me in 2011 against the Mavericks. i will never be able to remove that gross visual from my head. LeBron played timid and scared, and he deferred to Dwyane Wade at all cost as his team gagged the final three games of the series. and we're really comparing him to Michael Jordan? i'm trying very hard not to laugh over here.
bottom line: some of you guys can't have it both ways
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
https://shutupandjam.net/nba-ncaa-stats/ht-by-pos/
NBA Average Height by Position & Year
According to the above website link, when Wilt entered the league, the average height of an NBA center was 6' 9.7"
In 2014 (last year on the list) the average height of an NBA center was 6' 11.1" - an increase of only an inch and a half.
I have read the stupid statement that there were no other 7 foot players when Wilt was in the league and its just idiotic. Wilt didn't dominate because he was the only tall guy, he dominated because he was tall and an incredible athlete and competitor.
He had a 2-3 inch advantage over the average center who was about 6'10", now the average center is 6'11".
http://www.nba.com/2012/history/features/03/26/season-of-giants-wilt-fouling-out/
Of all of Wilt's mind-numbing numbers, a 'zero' stands out
Another amazing fact about Wilt is that he never fouled out of a game.
LeBron, Bird, or MJ.
Which would you want as a GM to lead you team in a single game with everything on the line?
And no stipulations (like who the teammates are, venue, referees officiating, ESPN coverage time, era and style of play, etc).
One game, everything on the line.
While all 3 are great...if I could only have one....it would be MJ.
For only one game he would be my pick as well
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Had a Ray Alen jump shot, a Kyrie Irving Jump shot and a Drsymind Green suspension in-game 5 not happened LeBron James likely would be 1-7 In the FInals.
LeBron in a heartbeat. MJ didn't do squat until Pippen came along (remember the Jordanaires.)
James is a one man wrecking crew who makes it to the finals regardless of the supporting cast.
Very nicely worded summation of my exact feelings. Thank you.
The 80’s to early 90’s I could watch NBA basketball non stop
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Baseball as well.
Sigh!
I also like the season where he averaged more than 48 minutes per game having played every minute of every game and overtime.
Many people can't wrap their heads around the fact people who played before they were born could actually be good.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
If you read through the comments on YouTube, a lot of people watching the "NBA Larry Bird Ultimate Mixtape" who had never seen Bird play were very surprised by what they saw.
Edited to add: if you haven't watched it, It is well worth your time.
Larry Bird is my favorite player to ever step foot on a basketball court. I had the pleasure of watching his career and seeing him play in person a few times. I do not believe him to be the greatest player in the history of the game but I don't think that's an insult, either.
I tell people under thirty this all the time: The funny thing about today's NBA is that the teams that seem to win consistently are the ones that play like EVERY team played in the 80s; good rotational team defense and a ball that snaps around from player to player on just about every possession. It's amazing how much better any team looks when they just stop dribbling.
And to wrap up my thoughts on this great discussion, IF there's one bad thing I'll say about LeBron James it is that he seems to not understand the value of a team or that basketball is a team sport. Maybe he doesn't have to - he has won plenty on HIS terms - because of his immense talent. However, he's so dismissive of his teammates and coaches that I think he's left more than crumbs on the table. In fact, I truly believe if he had built something in one spot instead of three (Cleveland or Miami) and cultivated a team around him he could have been threatening Bill Russell's ring totals when all was said and done. Still, this could have been predicted, right? His goal from the beginning was to be a global icon rather than the greatest basketball player. I'd say he succeeded in one already and is worthy of the discussion for the second, anyway. On his own terms.
Maybe that's just the way he wanted it.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest