Bird vs LeBron

thisistheshow · May 18, 2018 6:38AM

I admit upfront I am a Boston fan, grew up watching Larry. But a few years ago I spent some time really trying to objectively compare the two and decided that Bird was the better all around player.

Now that LeBron is racking up such longevity, I sense in sport-opinion world that Bird is being relegated to not being worthy of being in the debate.

So I ask, does LeBron's longevity make him rise above Bird? Do you think he already was better? Or do you think he isn't?

Larry Bird is my favorite NBA player ever so I never tire of the discussion. I'm pretty new here, so if this topic has been beaten to death, please forgive me.

DIMEMAN · May 18, 2018 6:50AM

Very interesting. Can you show the stats you are basing this on?

bronco2078 · May 18, 2018 6:52AM

based on this I agree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gc4QTqslN4

perkdog · May 18, 2018 7:26AM

Great tune but very odd fellow

perkdog · May 18, 2018 7:28AM

Bird or Lebron it wouldn’t matter to me either one would get it done, just with different styles.

stevek · May 18, 2018 8:09AM

Every time i hear that song. i feel like shooting an M16...i'm not sure why?

Coinstartled · May 18, 2018 9:14AM

I am a Bird fan as well. Better comparison was vs Ervin Johnson as they competed against each other repeatedly at the highest level.

MJ and LeBron are a step up from both. I believe that James is the GOAT, others still cling to the MJ legacy and though they are wrong, their passion is admirable.

thisistheshow · May 18, 2018 12:38PM

@DIMEMAN said:
Very interesting. Can you show the stats you are basing this on?

Looking at their basic average stats they are remarkably similar. But I base my opinion on a few things:

Bird has a significant rebounding edge, though he played in an era of traditional big-men.

LeBron's assist edge is less than would be expected considering that he is so much more often his team's ball-handler.

Bird did not need the ball in his hand to facilitate greatness, he could do it within the flow of the offense. For example, both are amazing passers, but it seems that LeBron's best passes mainly come when he is dribbling and not within the framework of offensive movement.

LeBron is the better defender, but anyone who watched a lot of Bird understands his defensive prowess. I was surprised to find that Bird led the league four times in Defensive Win Shares, where LeBron never has.

Justacommeman · May 18, 2018 12:41PM

@Coinstartled said:
I am a Bird fan as well. Better comparison was vs Ervin Johnson as they competed against each other repeatedly at the highest level.

MJ and LeBron are a step up from both. I believe that James is the GOAT, others still cling to the MJ legacy and though they are wrong, their passion is admirable.

Let me check myself but I think I’m in agreement.

Let’s put it this way. If every player that ever played was 22 years old today and knowing how these players all turned out who do you think would be the overall first pick? I think an awful lot of GM’s and owners would take James. There really is no one like him body wise combined with that skill level. He can do more things that matter then anyone else. Ball handling, passing, defense, rebounding, jumping, shoot blocking, shooting, scoring, creating his own shot, getting to the basket, getting others involved etc etc . He does them all exceedingly well. Just my personal opinion but I’m right ; )

mark

keets · May 18, 2018 2:01PM

DIMEMAN · May 18, 2018 2:07PM

@Justacommeman said:

@Coinstartled said:
I am a Bird fan as well. Better comparison was vs Ervin Johnson as they competed against each other repeatedly at the highest level.

MJ and LeBron are a step up from both. I believe that James is the GOAT, others still cling to the MJ legacy and though they are wrong, their passion is admirable.

Let me check myself but I think I’m in agreement.

Let’s put it this way. If every player that ever played was 22 years old today and knowing how these players all turned out who do you think would be the overall first pick? I think an awful lot of GM’s and owners would take James. There really is no one like him body wise combined with that skill level. He can do more things that matter then anyone else. Ball handling, passing, defense, rebounding, jumping, shoot blocking, shooting, scoring, creating his own shot, getting to the basket, getting others involved etc etc . He does them all exceedingly well. Just my personal opinion but I’m right ; )

mark

I have disagree with you on this Mark. James is very good, but is listed # 2 all time behind MJ on "the list". I agree with their assessment which stated that a "LOT" would have to happen before James took over the 1 spot.

Kkathyl · May 18, 2018 2:10PM

Larry Bird was a better overall player and he also played during a time when money did not talk. You have to consider the help one gets with rules & his team mates.

keets · May 18, 2018 2:10PM

SanctionII · May 18, 2018 2:12PM

Just watched the video posted by bronco2078.

Quite a performance; one that would (if I did not listen to the audio and was limited only to watching an edited video showing only the performer in front of a blank background) cause me to think .......... "Dude must be crazy or on drugs, or both'.

Justacommeman · May 18, 2018 2:13PM

@DIMEMAN said:

@Justacommeman said:

@Coinstartled said:
I am a Bird fan as well. Better comparison was vs Ervin Johnson as they competed against each other repeatedly at the highest level.

MJ and LeBron are a step up from both. I believe that James is the GOAT, others still cling to the MJ legacy and though they are wrong, their passion is admirable.

Let me check myself but I think I’m in agreement.

Let’s put it this way. If every player that ever played was 22 years old today and knowing how these players all turned out who do you think would be the overall first pick? I think an awful lot of GM’s and owners would take James. There really is no one like him body wise combined with that skill level. He can do more things that matter then anyone else. Ball handling, passing, defense, rebounding, jumping, shoot blocking, shooting, scoring, creating his own shot, getting to the basket, getting others involved etc etc . He does them all exceedingly well. Just my personal opinion but I’m right ; )

mark

I have disagree with you on this Mark. James is very good, but is listed # 2 all time behind MJ on "the list". I agree with their assessment which stated that a "LOT" would have to happen before James took over the 1 spot.

I’m not taking about records or championships. I’m talking if GM’s were constructing teams today from scratch and everyone was eligible and they were all the same age that Lebron would be the concensus #1 pick. I don’t think Jordan would even be second as great as his accomplishments were.

Mark

DIMEMAN · May 18, 2018 3:08PM

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:

@Justacommeman said:

@Coinstartled said:
I am a Bird fan as well. Better comparison was vs Ervin Johnson as they competed against each other repeatedly at the highest level.

MJ and LeBron are a step up from both. I believe that James is the GOAT, others still cling to the MJ legacy and though they are wrong, their passion is admirable.

Let me check myself but I think I’m in agreement.

Let’s put it this way. If every player that ever played was 22 years old today and knowing how these players all turned out who do you think would be the overall first pick? I think an awful lot of GM’s and owners would take James. There really is no one like him body wise combined with that skill level. He can do more things that matter then anyone else. Ball handling, passing, defense, rebounding, jumping, shoot blocking, shooting, scoring, creating his own shot, getting to the basket, getting others involved etc etc . He does them all exceedingly well. Just my personal opinion but I’m right ; )

mark

I have disagree with you on this Mark. James is very good, but is listed # 2 all time behind MJ on "the list". I agree with their assessment which stated that a "LOT" would have to happen before James took over the 1 spot.

I’m not taking about records or championships. I’m talking if GM’s were constructing teams today from scratch and everyone was eligible and they were all the same age that Lebron would be the concensus #1 pick. I don’t think Jordan would even be second as great as his accomplishments were.

Mark

I'm not talking rings either.........just overall skill....Jordan is # 1.

HighGradeLegends · May 18, 2018 3:15PM

bird did not need "the decision"

thisistheshow · May 18, 2018 3:21PM

Bird was 6-0 vs MJ in the playoffs. 2 sweeps..........not that this thread is about comparing the two, just sayin'

DIMEMAN · May 18, 2018 3:49PM

@thisistheshow said:
Bird was 6-0 vs MJ in the playoffs. 2 sweeps..........not that this thread is about comparing the two, just sayin'

That just means that the Celtics were a better team than the Bulls in those years. Boston was a very good team during those years.

Justacommeman · May 18, 2018 4:13PM

@DIMEMAN said:

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:

@Justacommeman said:

@Coinstartled said:
I am a Bird fan as well. Better comparison was vs Ervin Johnson as they competed against each other repeatedly at the highest level.

MJ and LeBron are a step up from both. I believe that James is the GOAT, others still cling to the MJ legacy and though they are wrong, their passion is admirable.

Let me check myself but I think I’m in agreement.

Let’s put it this way. If every player that ever played was 22 years old today and knowing how these players all turned out who do you think would be the overall first pick? I think an awful lot of GM’s and owners would take James. There really is no one like him body wise combined with that skill level. He can do more things that matter then anyone else. Ball handling, passing, defense, rebounding, jumping, shoot blocking, shooting, scoring, creating his own shot, getting to the basket, getting others involved etc etc . He does them all exceedingly well. Just my personal opinion but I’m right ; )

mark

I have disagree with you on this Mark. James is very good, but is listed # 2 all time behind MJ on "the list". I agree with their assessment which stated that a "LOT" would have to happen before James took over the 1 spot.

I’m not taking about records or championships. I’m talking if GM’s were constructing teams today from scratch and everyone was eligible and they were all the same age that Lebron would be the concensus #1 pick. I don’t think Jordan would even be second as great as his accomplishments were.

Mark

I'm not talking rings either.........just overall skill....Jordan is # 1.

I'm just saying most GM's would take James over MJ as Lebrons total skill sets are better then Jordan's. He's a physical beast. Michael was the better scorer. I can't think of much else he is noticeably better then James at . Foul shooting perhaps. There is no one built like James that can do what he does.

This is just one writers opinion but it's a great read. Lucid pro's and cons

https://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/michael-jordan-vs-lebron-james/

m

Justacommeman · May 18, 2018 4:15PM

@DIMEMAN said:

@thisistheshow said:
Bird was 6-0 vs MJ in the playoffs. 2 sweeps..........not that this thread is about comparing the two, just sayin'

That just means that the Celtics were a better team than the Bulls in those years. Boston was a very good team during those years.

So when the Bulls win its because of Jordan carrying them and not the Bulls team. When they lose its because the other team was better. Got it

m

Justacommeman · May 18, 2018 4:17PM

@thisistheshow said:
Bird was 6-0 vs MJ in the playoffs. 2 sweeps..........not that this thread is about comparing the two, just sayin'

Bird was a bad ass and he could play for me any day. This from a Pistons Fan. He was money and had a mean streak to boot. The ultimate competitor. The highest basketball IQ I've ever encountered. Winner. Played the game like nobodies business

m

thisistheshow · May 18, 2018 4:23PM

There's no way to know for sure, but speculation and sports talk are likethis.......I am sure that if he hadn't had the back injury, which supposedly was from paving his Mother's driveway, I would have been able to title this thread "Bird vs MJ" and had it be a serious debate.

coinpalice · May 18, 2018 4:25PM

Kevin McHale and Bird played well together

Coinstartled · May 18, 2018 4:53PM

@thisistheshow said:
There's no way to know for sure, but speculation and sports talk are likethis.......I am sure that if he hadn't had the back injury, which supposedly was from paving his Mother's driveway, I would have been able to title this thread "Bird vs MJ" and had it be a serious debate.

Injury or not, Bird had a vertical leap of like 4 inches. Justacommem can go six when he gets a gold sticker. Bird was great in spite of being stiff and clunky.

MJ defined the athletic NBA'er. Lebron exceeded that.

thisistheshow · May 18, 2018 4:58PM

The Bird v LeBron debate only exists because Larry was only a shell of himself at the end of a shortened career.

thisistheshow · May 18, 2018 5:04PM

@Coinstartled
Bird's vertical was 28"...I know you were joking.

DIMEMAN · May 18, 2018 5:11PM

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:

@thisistheshow said:
Bird was 6-0 vs MJ in the playoffs. 2 sweeps..........not that this thread is about comparing the two, just sayin'

That just means that the Celtics were a better team than the Bulls in those years. Boston was a very good team during those years.

So when the Bulls win its because of Jordan carrying them and not the Bulls team. When they lose its because the other team was better. Got it

m

Mark....I love the way you spin things! You know exactly how it works. Would the Bulls have won those 6 titles without Jordan....NO. But Jordan needed some help during those 6 Titles that he didn't have in other years.

Jordan was a better shooter......30+ PPG Career #1.
Jordan had better moves.
Jordan was just as good on defense if not better than James.
Jordan is #1 on list....that was not done by me.

Justacommeman · May 18, 2018 5:17PM

Disagree. I’m not taking about lists. I’m taking about who most GM’s would take first. It would be James for the all the reasons I stated.

FYI when Jordan left the Bulls they still won 50 plus games. When James left Cleveland they won like 19 games. When he left Miami they won 30 something games

Anyways we have officially hijacked this James-Bird thread. I apologize to the OP. I’m done

I would take James over Bird but understand the comparison and case the OP makes

m

thisistheshow · May 18, 2018 5:25PM

@Justacommeman said:
Disagree. I’m not taking about lists. I’m taking about who most GM’s would take first. It would be James for the all the reasons I stated.

FYI when Jordan left the Bulls they still won 50 plus games. When James left Cleveland they won like 19 games. When he left Miami they won 30 something games

Anyways we have officially hijacked this James-Bird thread. I apologize to the OP. I’m done

I would take James over Bird but understand the comparison and case the OP makes

m

No apology needed.
And the point made here, in my opinion, actually lends credence to both MJ AND Bird over LeBron...because they didn't just drag along their team,temporarily making it greater than the sum of its parts, instead they boosted it up and made the individual parts better and therefore the team didn't have to flutter completely every time they left the court.

I really enjoyed everyone's input here. This was fun.

Justacommeman · May 18, 2018 6:05PM

@thisistheshow said:

@Justacommeman said:
Disagree. I’m not taking about lists. I’m taking about who most GM’s would take first. It would be James for the all the reasons I stated.

FYI when Jordan left the Bulls they still won 50 plus games. When James left Cleveland they won like 19 games. When he left Miami they won 30 something games

Anyways we have officially hijacked this James-Bird thread. I apologize to the OP. I’m done

I would take James over Bird but understand the comparison and case the OP makes

m

No apology needed.
And the point made here, in my opinion, actually lends credence to both MJ AND Bird over LeBron...because they didn't just drag along their team,temporarily making it greater than the sum of its parts, instead they boosted it up and made the individual parts better and therefore the team didn't have to flutter completely every time they left the court.

I really enjoyed everyone's input here. This was fun.

That's another way at looking at it. Thanks for being a good sport

mark

1951WheatiesPremium · May 18, 2018 6:07PM

To inject some sanity to this discussion, please pick which era of NBA we're playing these games in? The rules and style of play post 2000 is very cheap and barely resembles actual basketball.

In the greatest decade of basketball, the reason the team that won the most was the Lakers. They won because they had the all time leading scorer - who was unstoppable and was the guy who got the ball in crunch time - Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Won everywhere he went and couldn't be stopped.

Except by Bruce Lee.

After Kareem is Michael, Bird - Magic (tie) and then LeBron.

LeBron is probably the greatest athlete to ever play hoops, though.

Coinstartled · May 18, 2018 6:09PM

@thisistheshow said:
@Coinstartled
Bird's vertical was 28"...I know you were joking.

Must have been Bill Laimbeer that I was thinking of.

keets · May 18, 2018 6:19PM

I like Joe Posnanski, mostly because of his writing style but also as a native Clevelander. he has done well for himself.

fergie23 · May 18, 2018 6:26PM

I doubt any GM would actually pick Lebron over Jordan. Jordan was a better offensive player - all time leader in points scored per game - and better defensive player - call me when Lebron has 9 first team all defense and a DPOY award.

In the modern NBA, with the elimination of hand checking and hard fouls, Jordan would be unstoppable on offense.

Any Lebron argument is simply recency bias in action. His rebound advantage is basically meaningless. He plays down low on defense and thus should have more rebounds -- Lebron averages 1.2 offensive rebounds per game, Jordan averaged 1.6. Their rebounding difference amounts to Lebron primarily guarding forwards on defense and thus being in position to rebound more often. I will grant that Lebron is a better passer than Jordan but would you rather have the better scorer and defender or the better passer?

Robb

thisistheshow · May 18, 2018 6:27PM

@1951WheatiesPremium I agree with most or all of what you said-I still think a healthy Bird would have tipped the 80s scale towards the Celtics, but other than that.....

Kareem's skyhook was the only ever unstoppable shot. If he missed it was due to a mistake on his part, not that of a defender.

Coinstartled · May 18, 2018 6:30PM

@thisistheshow said:
@1951WheatiesPremium I agree with most or all of what you said-I still think a healthy Bird would have tipped the 80s scale towards the Celtics, but other than that.....

And if Tiger Woods had not gotten married he would have 20 major wins. Nicklaus debate would be history and he would have an extra $500,000,000 in the bank...

thisistheshow · May 18, 2018 6:32PM

@Coinstartled said:

@thisistheshow said:
@1951WheatiesPremium I agree with most or all of what you said-I still think a healthy Bird would have tipped the 80s scale towards the Celtics, but other than that.....

And if Tiger Woods had not gotten married he would have 20 major wins. Nicklaus debate would be history and he would have an extra $500,000,000 in the bank...

This is true....

DIMEMAN · May 18, 2018 6:35PM

@fergie23 said:
I doubt any GM would actually pick Lebron over Jordan. Jordan was a better offensive player - all time leader in points scored per game - and better defensive player - call me when Lebron has 9 first team all defense and a DPOY award.

In the modern NBA, with the elimination of hand checking and hard fouls, Jordan would be unstoppable on offense.

Any Lebron argument is simply recency bias in action. His rebound advantage is basically meaningless. He plays down low on defense and thus should have more rebounds -- Lebron averages 1.2 offensive rebounds per game, Jordan averaged 1.6. Their rebounding difference amounts to Lebron primarily guarding forwards on defense and thus being in position to rebound more often. I will grant that Lebron is a better passer than Jordan but would you rather have the better scorer and defender or the better passer?

Robb

I totally agree.

Brick · May 18, 2018 6:43PM

There may be a GM that would take MJ over LeBron. He would be looking for a job within a week.

Justacommeman · May 18, 2018 6:44PM

@Brick said:
There may be a GM that would take MJ over LeBron. He would be looking for a job within a week.

Indeed

Whoops to the OP

m

bronco2078 · May 18, 2018 7:42PM

@fergie23 said:
I doubt any GM would actually pick Lebron over Jordan. Jordan was a better offensive player - all time leader in points scored per game - and better defensive player - call me when Lebron has 9 first team all defense and a DPOY award.

In the modern NBA, with the elimination of hand checking and hard fouls, Jordan would be unstoppable on offense.

Any Lebron argument is simply recency bias in action. His rebound advantage is basically meaningless. He plays down low on defense and thus should have more rebounds -- Lebron averages 1.2 offensive rebounds per game, Jordan averaged 1.6. Their rebounding difference amounts to Lebron primarily guarding forwards on defense and thus being in position to rebound more often. I will grant that Lebron is a better passer than Jordan but would you rather have the better scorer and defender or the better passer?

Robb

This , different game today . Its just like these threads about the NFL new vs old bring some old QB forward 30 years and he will shine , take the new guy and drop him in 1950 and he will get crushed.

Every player is a product of the era they play in, and this is by far the softest era of NBA basketball.

keets · May 19, 2018 4:19AM

In the modern NBA, with the elimination of hand checking and hard fouls

really??

stevek · May 19, 2018 7:11AM

Very interesting Bird vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

Very interesting Jordan vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

I think everyone presented excellent, no make that superb, no make that outstanding, points as to why their particular favorite NBA player is the second best NBA player of all time.

I'm just glad that we all fully agree, and that there is no debate whatsoever, that Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest NBA player of all time. I think it's absolutely wonderful to see such total and complete agreement in this forum for a change.

keets · May 19, 2018 7:31AM

bronco2078 · May 19, 2018 7:56AM

@stevek said:
Very interesting Bird vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

Very interesting Jordan vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

I think everyone presented excellent, no make that superb, no make that outstanding, points as to why their particular favorite NBA player is the second best NBA player of all time.

I'm just glad that we all fully agree, and that there is no debate whatsoever, that

Wilt Chamberlain is second only to Hugh Hefner in the number of oh thats a different list nevermind

larryallen73 · May 19, 2018 8:09AM

Bird was an interesting player. Is he top 10 all time on most people's lists? I would never think to compare him to Lebron as they played different games at different times and with vastly different teammates. Bird had multiple HOFers on his team and Lebron has played with maybe one HOFer. As for the Lebron v. MJ debate it seems like a never ending debate. There are pros and cons to each and it's certainly not clear that either side has a better argument in my opinion. Similar to Magic v. Bird - pros and cons on each side.

DIMEMAN · May 19, 2018 9:12AM

@stevek said:
Very interesting Bird vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

Very interesting Jordan vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

I think everyone presented excellent, no make that superb, no make that outstanding, points as to why their particular favorite NBA player is the second best NBA player of all time.

I'm just glad that we all fully agree, and that there is no debate whatsoever, that Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest NBA player of all time. I think it's absolutely wonderful to see such total and complete agreement in this forum for a change.

Wilt is #2 behind Jordan in career PPG! So yes, he was pretty good.

stevek · May 19, 2018 9:27AM

@bronco2078 said:

@stevek said:
Very interesting Bird vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

Very interesting Jordan vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

I think everyone presented excellent, no make that superb, no make that outstanding, points as to why their particular favorite NBA player is the second best NBA player of all time.

I'm just glad that we all fully agree, and that there is no debate whatsoever, that Wilt Chamberlain is second only to Hugh Hefner in the number of oh thats a different list nevermind

I always thought it was Gene Simmons.

stevek · May 19, 2018 9:35AM

@DIMEMAN said:

@stevek said:
Very interesting Bird vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

Very interesting Jordan vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

I think everyone presented excellent, no make that superb, no make that outstanding, points as to why their particular favorite NBA player is the second best NBA player of all time.

I'm just glad that we all fully agree, and that there is no debate whatsoever, that Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest NBA player of all time. I think it's absolutely wonderful to see such total and complete agreement in this forum for a change.

Wilt is #2 behind Jordan in career PPG! So yes, he was pretty good.

If only Wilt coulda hit more free throws. LOL

Pasted:

List of records and feats:

Chamberlain holds 72 NBA records, 68 by himself. Among his records are several that are considered unbreakable, such as averaging 22.9 rebounds for a career or 50.4 points per game in a season, scoring 100 points or 55 rebounds in a single game, scoring 65 or more points 15 times, 50 or more points 118 times. During Chamberlain's time, defensive statistics like blocks and steals had not been recorded yet. However, according to Jack Ramsay, "Harvey [Pollack] said he used to tell one of his statisticians to keep track of Wilt's blocks in big games... One night, they got up to 25."

DIMEMAN · May 19, 2018 9:46AM

@stevek said:

@DIMEMAN said:

@stevek said:
Very interesting Bird vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

Very interesting Jordan vs LeBron debate. Very enjoyable.

I think everyone presented excellent, no make that superb, no make that outstanding, points as to why their particular favorite NBA player is the second best NBA player of all time.

I'm just glad that we all fully agree, and that there is no debate whatsoever, that Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest NBA player of all time. I think it's absolutely wonderful to see such total and complete agreement in this forum for a change.

Wilt is #2 behind Jordan in career PPG! So yes, he was pretty good.

If only Wilt coulda hit more free throws. LOL

Pasted:

List of records and feats:

Chamberlain holds 72 NBA records, 68 by himself. Among his records are several that are considered unbreakable, such as averaging 22.9 rebounds for a career or 50.4 points per game in a season, scoring 100 points or 55 rebounds in a single game, scoring 65 or more points 15 times, 50 or more points 118 times. During Chamberlain's time, defensive statistics like blocks and steals had not been recorded yet. However, according to Jack Ramsay, "Harvey [Pollack] said he used to tell one of his statisticians to keep track of Wilt's blocks in big games... One night, they got up to 25."

He was a force. It didn't hurt that he was the only 7 footer....now they are a dime a dozen!

Bird vs LeBron

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