Copper spot removal on gold coins
logger7
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A major numismatic coin buyer said that certified gold coins with copper spots was a deal killer for them. So I called NGC which used to have a low cost gold coin spot removal service and they first said that the usual 4% charge applies; then they said that it may be less on a case by case basis. Large fees for something like copper spot removal, if say you had a $3K or higher coin, is a real deterrent. Are there any good alternatives?
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if it is 1oz gold coin with copper spots, I would deduct the 4% from my price to whomever I am trying to sell it. Then you have your cash and the problem is gone. No fuss. I think it really depends on the scarcity of the coin. Can you provide a picture?
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It all depends upon the what the spot looks like. If it is fairly large, black and into the surface, as the worst ones can be, you might as well take your lumps and dump the coin for whatever you can get. Why throw good money after bad? Spots like that don't come out; they only might get smaller. If it looks like the pre curation SS Central America coins, I'd say the same thing. I've seen some of those coins go bad within a decade, and I'm not sure there is much you can do to really fix them.
If it's light brown or bluish and not too big, it could be worth the investment. You really need to post a photo or two.
Copper spots can be easily removed if you know how.
I read somewhere that they use a small butane torch and burn them off. Not sure how permanent this removal is though.
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I'm shocked you would even ask this.
Give it some real thought. Really think about it. Are you concentrating? Come on, come on. I know you know the alternative. Think, think....too easy for any hints. Best of all, its FREE!
GOOD! Now spit it out!
Actually I did not find the coppery blotch to be that much of a problem on this coin, the reverse of the $20:
I heard that they used to use strychnine to do the removal.
Copper spots lower the eye appeal for many people. Those w/o the tiny black struck thru's in their core come off easily. The others take more work.
Any conservation service at PCGS, NCS, or ICG can remove them - only the price is different. Sorry, I don't know anything about ANACS. Perhaps a member who uses them can give them equal time.
PS NCS started when a grader removed a copper spot. As a result the coin graded higher and soon the poor fellow was no longer grading. He was cleaning er, conserving coins.
Let me know if you figure out how to remove. I have some $20 libs with those nasty copper spots. They are common date AU just bullion value but they disgust me almost as much as toned / tarnished silver coins. I'm not worried about any collectable value, the OCD just wants them to be pretty again. Unfortunately Tarn-x doesn't work. lol
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Cac doesn't regard many copper spots on gold coins as a deal killer with certified coins for them, in fact it seems they like them as "original"; so this seems to be more a problem for the non-connoisseurs.
There is always the time honored Brillo Pad. Just kidding. Probably shouldn't even kid about that. Sorry bad joke.
Original surfaces are always better!! Just ask Warren Mills or John Albanese. I happen to like the "coppery blotch" on that Lib reverse. The 1927-S MS67 Saint has a large copper spot in the right obverse rays, and here it is, beautiful!
Personally, I don't like copper spots on gold coins. Thanks for sharing !!!
Thanks for this important information. Apparently CAC has a different idea of what constitutes positive eye appeal than what I and most other collectors do. In the future I'll be sure to more closely examine any gold coins that may have a cac sticker.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I guess my Carson City $20 Double Eagle from the Saddle Ridge Hoard would be a good candidate to submit to CAC. Don Kagin commented that many felt the Saddle Ridge Hoard in general were under graded by PCGS and that has apparently been born out by those submitted to NGC which have been given higher grades. For the subject coin the feature arguably actually adds character. The impurities in the gold from the Comstock lode from which the Carson City gold coins were minted is a contributing factor adding a measure of uniqueness and identity that is reflected in their appearance.
Separately, a lot depends on size and location as well. Minimal and located on the reverse in the periphery is one thing rather than being large and located on say Liberty's nose where it would be distracting.
I would have to seriously question what, if any, added value would result from "conservation."
Like others have said here, copper spots add to the originality of the coin, do not remove them. Experienced numismatists appreciate them for what they are and the indication that the gold is not messed with (at least to the degree of removing copper spots). They add character to a gold coin no doubt.
Best, SH
That's all true but if you have to sell at a discount later that's a problem; you have to find another old time numismatist who is not bothered by them, but at auction you may still get less than you would had the spot(s) been removed. Cac has offered me their premium price even with the spot(s), coppery mottling, blotch, etc. that were not distracting a while back. However if it is integral to get the spot off in order to sell to a top wholesaler, then you have to run the coin through the certification company and get them to pull it off, hoping to get it back in the same holder.
Count me in the minority that doesn’t mind a copper spot or two on an original gold coin.
The black spot on that Carson City is certainly not attractive, but, for the most part, copper spots have never bothered me. Back in the day, before authentication, they were viewed as a sign of authenticity.
I didn't realize so many here like copper spots on their gold coins. Perhaps someone should offer a service to add black and brown spots to gold coins to give them character.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Is this kind of spotting what the conservation services work on? Not my coin, but I saw a similar one in a super high grade slab and the spots just make poor Zog (and the rest of the coin) look like he's got the chicken pox. The other one was a specimen coin/gem otherwise IIRC. I don't like this kind of spotting and wouldn't buy it.
Stork---Those spots are definitely a major distraction which hurt the value and salability of that coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
A spot here or there doesn't bother me. That last coin looks like it has chicken pox though! lol. Yall know I love toning on gold.... I love when the spots can make the coin unique though, like this Indian that looks like he is wearing tribal paint or took a bite from an enemies heart!
As to @northcoin's 1892-CC double eagle, the spot above the "E" in "TWENTY" would bother me. The rest of coppery toning is perfectly okay with me. As a matter of fact, I like it. I don't think that the spot above the "E" would come out very well. At the same time messing with it would destroy the originality of the piece. I'd leave it alone.
If I were buying a gold coin for stacking, and price was right, I would not be bothered by a copper spot. On the other hand, if it were for my collection, I would avoid copper spots since the beauty/condition of the coin is primary for that category. Cheers, RickO
I don't mind them if they aren't too distracting. I believe just one of my coins has a minor one and it doesn't bother me at all.
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What is a copper spot? is it a darker translucent area of toning or a surface where black carbon impurities are imbedded below the surface of a coin? While the latter often occurs within the former, it often does not, and the two are sometimes conflated, especially by ignorance among the generic buyers of generic gold.
As for using a butane torch to burn out carbon deposits, most who are knowledgeable prefer these to piezo-electrics with what I have heard described as a "much narrower heat cone".
Neither of these technologies were around when I got my first coin doctoring lesson from Abe Kosoff in 1976, but the lesson did include a warning about wearing "oven mittens". He mentioned nothing about how leftover mercaptan might have affected Molly's pot roast.
Maybe I'm blind, but I owned this coin for quite a while before even realizing there were copper spots on the reverse in "AMERICA". It would be a grievous sin to even think about messing with them.
I'm finding that the spot on my old proof 20c is moving around.
Not on the coin, but the coin is sure making the rounds.
I will not buy them - good luck.
They do no favors for the coin. I would nor buy a coin with copper spots. Some are so bad they cannot be removed without damaging the coin.
That was back in the day and it was a sure fire indication that a coin was genuine. Sometime in early 2000 I saw two counterfeits with copper spots. As I remember, on was a five Indian. So far, copper spots are rare on fakes but they can occur.
IMHO, the spot above the "E" would come off w/o a trace (by a coin doctor as he would need to restore the area he worked on)). The rest of the color should never be touched as it links the coin to the hoard and its originality. Sort of like the Redfield toning on Morgan's.
Looks like she put on too much lipstick that day......
And I don't know how long you would have to wait to get PCGS to remove copper spots on their certified coins; at least NGC has a $50 expedite service on conservation.