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Does persistence pay when resubmitting a coin repeatedly for a higher grade?
drddm
Posts: 5,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
According to Coin Facts, this 1813 Bust Half (not my coin) was won back in January 2017 on Heritage as a 64 and has since been cracked out and resubmitted 10 times in order to try for a 65. I know the spread is pretty big between 64 and 65, and I guess the owner truly believes it’s a 65, but does persistence really pay off in the end???
I guess time will tell....
Finally, has anyone ever heard of a coin being resubmitted many, many times IN ITS HOLDER and being successful at getting an upgrade?
Share your stories of how your belief and perseverance in a coin (or a coin you heard about) helped it get to a higher grade.
Dave
3
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Depends on the coin.
Coin Rarities Online
I have heard dealers talking about multiple submissions, a half dozen or more times;, it strikes me as a recipe for exasperation, but if it translates into a big money grade I guess the end justifies the means. If the NGC coin is on "001" on the label, chances are it was a high tier lone coin submission; with PCGS you can usually find out whether it was an only coin on the submission looking for a "hail Mary" result on the express or walkthrough tier by looking at the certification number and what came before or after number wise.
How do you find out how many times a coin was submitted?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I recall one dealer being aggravated with another at a show as he sold a coin after like 30 failed attempts and it upgraded the first time the other dealer submitted it.
I have only cracked one coin (1818 Capped Bust Half Dollar) out to obtain a higher grade, and was successful in obtaining an AU53 CAC to an AU55 CAC. There are several out there that are flooded, with images no less, in trying to get that next higher grade to be the Top Pop. An Indian cent last week was the most recent to my eyes; 20/0 none finer, the images are the tell-tale on this particular coin...which has been unsuccessful...so far.
It is unfortunate that our host will not remove those obvious attempts from the population numbers...unless an information insert is submitted for each removal request.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
I completely agree, especially when there are true views that show the exact SAME coin multiple times, like the 1813 above.
Dave
I don't even see how the pop numbers are of any value after decades of "crack & resubmit".
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Wow.... 6, 10, 30 submissions of the same coin.... After 30 submissions, the coin would be like an old friend to the graders...."Hey, here comes MS64 again..." Maybe they even joke about it on break... I do understand that a jump in grade, for some coins, can mean significant profit. That being said, it is cases such as these that screams for grading standards and computer grading. With the tremendous strides in AI, I can see it happening sooner, rather than later. Cheers, RickO
From the pictures it's certainly a very nice coin and can see why the owner feels it's an upgrade candidate.
If the owner decides to give up and would sell for 64 money I'd join the camp of interested buyers.
When buying a graded coin, I would love to know if I took 10 attempts to be a 65, that way I know it is a "borderline" 65 rather than a "solid" 65. I guess that is what cac is for, right?
.....resubmissions will never cease, because it is all about the MOOOOOLA!!!
Personally, I do not see the advantage of cracking the pictured 1813 - VERY unique coin. As mentioned above, the graders will recognize the coin immediately.
....the graders will recognize the coin immediately.
With some coins, I have to agree, but with the sheer volume of coins the graders see every single day, is it really possible to remember many of them?
My hunch is they can’t possibly recall a coin so easily, unless of course there was something so unique about its look that made it stand out in their mind.
Dave
It's just like walking up to a one armed bandit after someone spent hours trying to hit the jackpot. Pull that lever 1 time and hit the jackpot!
In my quest to get AU58+ Barber Half's I believe my average for all the +'s I've made is 3-4 tries per coin under reconsideration.
I had a 97-O I tried to upgrade from 55-58 under reconsideration 5 times. No Go. Finally sent it in express regrade at a show and got my 58.
I have heard of a situation or two where the owner sold the coin to dealer "Q" and the dealer submitting it, cracked or not, I don't know, and received an upgrade. It kinda throws some shade on the "anonymous" submitter theory.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
So many variables imo. Day of week, time of day, initial grader, etc. So if those variables move in a positive direction, I can see an upgrade. Personally I submitted a coin that came back questionable color I felt it was natural toning so i cracked it and it came back as a 65. Nice upgrade for me.
My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452
You can't if it has been cracked out.
That is what skews the pop reports.
Pete
Asking the owner/submitter is about the only reliable way.
No if a coin is a dog it's a dog. But if it's a nice coin and just miss by a point it may work out after some time has passed. This coin is a nice coin but the big price for a point kept it back. They are tough on a coin when it's like that. They would rather miss by a point then go over by one.
Hoard the keys.
I'm not sure if it was a 1918 D or S Buff, but someone kept resubmitting it so many times for a point upgrade that the graders started to become familiar with it.
This is hearsay, but I think it proves the essence of this thread.
Pete
Why wouldn't they? I know one collector who looked at coins in a dealer's cases/s and knew plenty about certain ones. Maybe they finally get a grader who hasn't seen it before and gives it the long sought bump. Then again, you'd think that the finalizer/s would catch it.
Interesting thread. Looks like a great coin.
Unbelievable coin, especially considering it is over 200 years old. It must not have had many owners over the years to be that well preserved. I like it a lot.
I'd really be afraid to crack that one out and resubmit. Since grading isn't scientific depending on the grader, frame of mind on a particular day, lighting and phase of the moon there is a possibility it might actually downgrade. (Who's old enough to remembers when there were only three uncirculated grades instead of forty-one?) Hate to even bring it up but has the coin been to CAC?
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
PCGS should start a "Volume II" of the pop report that begins, for example, January 1st of 2018 and lists only coins graded from that date on.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
The coin is terminally "environmentally damaged." Nevertheless, sometime in the future it MAY go up in grade. A decade ago, at some TPGS's, darkly toned coins were usually limited to MS-64. Obviously, things have changed.
For now, IMO it is silly to keep sending this coin in either raw or slabbed no matter how attractive the owner thinks it is.
Something else to think about. This coin has a "unique" look. One that is easy to remember. Let's say it was graded 64 the first time and then it crosses your desk ten more times the same year. What would be more fun and more profitable?
Give it an upgrade after the third time you saw it?
Consider it was graded correctly the first time. Then, show it around the room each time causing jokes and laughter while returning it as an MS-64 (the TPGS opinion) to the (EDIT) collector/dealer with deep pockets and bad eyesight/taste who loves black corrosion.
The owner should put their opinion of a grade on the coin and than try to sell it to a buyer that agrees or disagrees...right? If I was the service grading your coins and you wanted to keep cracking away at $25 or more dollars per coin, I'd say have at it! I hate all this nasty plastic surrounding my coins anyways.
Pays off in the form of CLCT stock dividends.
bob
Here's my take on the regrade game.
Most of my worthwhile experience has been with Peace dollars, the series I know best. Before selling my set, I think 8 or 9 of the 24 coins upgraded for me. All of this was done using the show regrade service over a period of a few months..... no crackouts. Some, like the 1928-P (65 to 65+) went on the first try. I made a top-pop 35-P in 66+ on the third try. My biggest scores were a 27-S that went from 65 to 65+ (added $17k of paper value) and a 24-P that went from 66+ to 67 ($7k of paper value). I could never get my 24-S to go from 64+ to 65 or my 21 to go from 66 to 66+ (tough grade). My record in perseverance was a 34-S that went from 65 to 65+ on the 5th try ($5k paper value).
So, those three successes resulted in a gain of $29k on paper. In reality, much of that was eaten up by loses in the other coins, grading fees, postage and fees to New Jersey, and the effects of gradeflation over time. The TPG that did the regrading got something like $7k in grading fees (average of 3 tries per coin at show rates).
Finally, here's a key point...... The coins that upgraded were usually the ones I paid large premiums to acquire - sometimes far over "book" values . If you KNOW your series, the market, and grading you can really tip the scales in your favor, but it's rare that you'll acquire stellar coins at pedestrian prices. The coins that upgraded were really, really nice for their previously assigned grade. If you're just randomly throwing coins up against the grading wall to "see what sticks" the only people who will win will be the people collecting the grading fees. I also worked closely with a dealer who knows the market and helped guide my efforts.
Finally, I'm pretty sure that even with the fancy new grades, the coins themselves never actually improved. They came back looking just like they did before!
It only ever makes sense to play the regrade game before selling. The market is always evolving. The coins don't, toning and doctoring excepted.
So...... boil all of this down, and you get basically what John from CRO said:
It depends on the coin!
@BryceM said: "Here's my take on the regrade game...So, those three successes resulted in a gain of $29k on paper. In reality, much of that was eaten up by loses in the other coins, grading fees, postage and fees to New Jersey, and THE EFFECTS OF GRADFLATION over time."
Please explain how the "effects of gradeflation" lowered the values. All of the coins in my grading set (most purchased in the mid-1980's) have increased one to two grades. The proofs have gone up two to four. The only way I think this could happen is if a 65 that upgraded to 66 is worth less than it was as a 65 when you bought it years earlier.
PS The best coin luck I ever had when I collected was with coins that I had to way overpay for at the time because they were so nice.
Persistence, patience, hope, and an indomitable optimism are traits necessary in this hobby.
One would assume if you spend enough $$$$ you will eventually get your upgrade. Probably what keeps these places in business.
Waste of $$$ imo just like playing the lottery, going to the casino, investing in the stock market, drinking booze or smoking cigarettes.
That 24-s will be tried again!
It doesn't matter what the coin actually grades, it matters what the person that owns it thinks it should grade.
Case in point... I was at the CSNS last year and made my rather fast scan of the tables to see what was available. After taking note of the dealers that have my "stuff" I can now take my time to further sift through the dreg.
The one dealer that use to be my goto (because he is heavy into my series) has an MS64 that I'm interested in, so I ask if he has any wiggle room in his asking price and he says "no" because "I have sent the coin in several times and I know the coin should be in a 5 holder" (of course it is!!!)
If I was selling?
I have to keep my optimism about "some" dealers going.
Being I like my copper brown I need to downgrade my 1872 proof 65 RB 2 cent piece to just brown, so I find a nice 65 brn example and ask the dealer if he will do an even swap...........he says "I like my coin way more than yours, your coin plus $200 and it's a deal" I said "To rich for my blood"
I actually found a better looking 65 brn coin that I liked much more than the other dealer had, and without a hesitation and a smile he said, "yes, of course i'll trade"
Be careful out there people.
@BryceM Were you submitting your coins at a show for regrading or were these express grading show specials?
Before they upgraded you were looking at them wrong. After the upgrade you were looking at them right so you had that going for you.
One of the dealers on the Coinplex boards would put out lists of coins he wanted and what he was paying; the caveat was "no 'lucky' coins"...
I have two coins with very different outcomes.
Coin 1: 1921 Peace Dollar with full strike in an NGC MS64 holder. Broke it out, lightened it a bit and got it into a PCGS MS64 holder. Cracked it and resubmitted it and it came back PCGS MS65. Now it even has a green CAC sticker on it.
Coin 2: 1907 $10 Indian was in a PCGS MS64 holder (OGH). Dealer cracked it for the guy because the dealer thought it was a 65, sent it in and it came back MS63. I bought it for in between money, removed some PVC that brightened it without affecting anything else and sent it to NGC. It came back MS62. I thought I could get a gold CAC bean on it, so I sent it in. It came back with a green bean (I guess they may not have wanted to step on fresh toes since it is a recently graded piece. It sure gets a lot of excited dealers asking how much it is when I put it out at shows.
One of these things is not like the others...
I love this hobby for some reason................
You are missing the third - studying and finding a potential opportunity and being willing to wager a small amount for a larger payoff. Like horse racing, which, as some know, is less gambling and more probabilities.
>
Do you really consider that light blue toning to be "darkly toned"?
I'm not an eye doctor and I don't play one on the coin forms; nevertheless, you may wish to get a checkup. Terminal corrosion is neither blue nor deep violet. It is another even darker color that indicates the coin's surface has become corroded.
For the folks here with better eyesight, take a wild guess at what the orange colored stuff in the motto is.
I don't believe I have ever purchased a coin based on the slab label; my eyes are still pretty good and I actually don't care about the difference between 64, 65, etc in what I collect. I did recently send a low detail graded coin in for review and got it back 2 levels higher in "grade", but it is still the same coin to me.
LOL. My eyesight is fine.
We can quibble over the chemistry of those orange spots, or the blue ones, but my question was simply whether you consider them to be "darkly toned". They aren't to my younger eyes "dark". Light green PVC could be corrosive and problematic, but I wouldn't suddenly call it dark green.
For the record, there are a number of yellow/red and orange silver compounds that are stable and not "terminal".
I would also point you and your search engine to "thin film effect".
That toning MAY be "terminal". It may also be relatively harmless.
Interesting thought. What if True View was no cost and just a given for every grade submission? Secondly, they now have facial recognition software... perhaps coin face or surface recognition could pull up old True Views for the grader with AI machine learning.
I cracked an MS64 NGC seen on Heritage (1942-P Walker) for a PC66 then resold the coin but that is not the norm. Majority of my NGC crackouts are straight crossed or downgraded 1 grade in my experience. Like this common '79-S Morgan. Was NGC 65 but I thought should be a PC66. Came back 65. IMO, it should at least be a +.
How many more times should I crack and resubmit this one?
On the flipside, the coins I find in the wild then encased at PCGS have been delighters. Perhaps I need to be a bit less conservative in my grading. One example is a raw gem '82-S Morgan I sent in that came back PC67+... to my Barber buddies don't be confused... the gains made this way help me better afford my Barber purchases.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
I remember hearing Mr. Hall speak at a grading class where he did in fact say that regrades were "like old friends" and that they recognize the ones that keep coming back.
I also had a 1909 VDB cent I was trying to get attributed as a DDO. After I sent it in the third time, I called customer service and asked if I could find out why it would not attribute. The rep told me that besides my 3 times, the coin was submitted 5 previous times and that it was not attributed as the die markers were wrong. She was correct as I later found out that it was not a DDO, (education) but I did learn that there is more in the PCGS data base under cert numbers than you may think.
WS
The orange spots are GLUE or a hardened residue that has become trapped in the recesses of the letters. I'm not a chemist either yet I can write that in the big picture, it has nothing to do with the chemistry of silver. It also had nothing to do with our discussion of color until I noticed it. It will come off the coin very easily and could have been done before the coin was holdered.
Now to the silly part. I'll give you a hint. The terminal color on that coin begins with the letter "B." Hint: It is not "Blue." I wish you had posted a link to the several excellent treatments of the progression of color on coins. Some here may not be as informed as you. When the surface of silver reaches a certain condition, the chemistry of which I'll leave to the qualified professionals - it is destroyed. At that stage, we are not dealing with any "thin-film" color progression.
IMO, the coin posted by the OP is BEAUTIFUL!
If I could change something I should own it. Unfortunately, what I cannot change is the terminal corrosion around its rim! There, I've given you another big hint regarding the "B" I reffered to. 
It would be interesting to know the year you sent your coin to PCGS. I think what you describe is amazing. One of the most important requisites for a grading system to approach "perfection" is precision. You'll want a coin to be graded the same each time it is seen. If a grading service can trace the submission record for a single 1909 cent by whatever means they used (perhaps images rather than the name of a submitter) they will have the ability to assign the same grade to it each time it is seen - one aim of "computer grading."
Looks like there is a cat fight going,
Hoard the keys.