@cameonut2011 said:
It looks like someone took at least a $500k+ loss. It looks like even the top 1% of the market isn't so sunny.
I don’t follow the 500K loss?
TDN said somewhere that he sold the coin for $5 million.
That makes sense. Being a private sale, I didn’t know where the $5M came from. Let’s see, if TDN sold it for $5M and bought it back for $5.5M. Does that mean he lost $500K too? Thinking about this big money is starting to give me a headache.
@MrEureka said:
A month ago, I would have guessed that the coin would hammer at $4 million.
After seeing the pre-bidding run up to $3.8 a week or two ago, I would have guessed at least $5 million, just because it was hard to believe that either of the two leading bidders would bid anything close to their limit so far before the auction. Apparently, I was wrong about that. And now I'm completely confused!
Andy - we felt we had a very good handle on the value of this coin. It was more important to us to ‘own’ two specific increments by prebidding than to not tip our hand
Congratulations, TDN. I'm curious what you mean by "own two specific increments." I understand the logic of owning one increment, but I don't understand the benefit of owning two. And how does owning the increment strategy work if an underbidder makes a cut bid? Thanks.
@cameonut2011 said:
It looks like someone took at least a $500k+ loss. It looks like even the top 1% of the market isn't so sunny.
I don’t follow the 500K loss?
TDN said somewhere that he sold the coin for $5 million.
That makes sense. Being a private sale, I didn’t know where the $5M came from. Let’s see, if TDN sold it for $5M and bought it back for $5.5M. Does that mean he lost $500K too? Thinking about this big money is starting to give me a headache.
No. Capital gains and losses are taken at the time of sale. $5.5 M would be good as it would still represent $1 million loss for the previous owner when adjusted for inflation. See my other post based on the CPI.
Also, think about if the other buyer had invested in the stock market instead. Bruce came out smelling like a rose. Based on the average rate of return for a major stock index (S&P 500), had the previous owner invested $5M in July 2007 and was well diversified, it would be worth approximately $9.316 million today for a profit of $4.316 million ($2.666 million in 2007 dollars adjusted for inflation). This is even accounting for the stock market crash in 2008.
@MrEureka said:
A month ago, I would have guessed that the coin would hammer at $4 million.
After seeing the pre-bidding run up to $3.8 a week or two ago, I would have guessed at least $5 million, just because it was hard to believe that either of the two leading bidders would bid anything close to their limit so far before the auction. Apparently, I was wrong about that. And now I'm completely confused!
Andy - we felt we had a very good handle on the value of this coin. It was more important to us to ‘own’ two specific increments by prebidding than to not tip our hand
Congratulations, TDN. I'm curious what you mean by "own two specific increments." I understand the logic of owning one increment, but I don't understand the benefit of owning two. And how does owning the increment strategy work if an underbidder makes a cut bid? Thanks.
If you bid online, you can own the current increment ($3.8M) AND the next increment ($4M)
@MrEureka said:
A month ago, I would have guessed that the coin would hammer at $4 million.
After seeing the pre-bidding run up to $3.8 a week or two ago, I would have guessed at least $5 million, just because it was hard to believe that either of the two leading bidders would bid anything close to their limit so far before the auction. Apparently, I was wrong about that. And now I'm completely confused!
Andy - we felt we had a very good handle on the value of this coin. It was more important to us to ‘own’ two specific increments by prebidding than to not tip our hand
Congratulations, TDN. I'm curious what you mean by "own two specific increments." I understand the logic of owning one increment, but I don't understand the benefit of owning two. And how does owning the increment strategy work if an underbidder makes a cut bid? Thanks.
If you bid online, you can own the current increment ($3.8M) AND the next increment ($4M)
That is what we did
Couldn't have someone cut the bid to $3.9 M ($4.68M) and did you hit your max bid (if you don't mind sharing - not being nosy)?
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@cameonut2011 said:
It looks like someone took at least a $500k+ loss. It looks like even the top 1% of the market isn't so sunny.
I don’t follow the 500K loss?
TDN said somewhere that he sold the coin for $5 million.
That makes sense. Being a private sale, I didn’t know where the $5M came from. Let’s see, if TDN sold it for $5M and bought it back for $5.5M. Does that mean he lost $500K too? Thinking about this big money is starting to give me a headache.
No. Capital gains and losses are taken at the time of sale. $5.5 M would be good as it would still represent $1 million loss for the previous owner when adjusted for inflation. See my other post based on the CPI.
Also, think about if the other buyer had invested in the stock market instead. Bruce came out smelling like a rose. Based on the average rate of return for a major stock index (S&P 500), had the previous owner invested $5M in July 2007 and was well diversified, it would be worth approximately $9.316 million today for a profit of $4.316 million ($2.666 million in 2007 dollars adjusted for inflation). This is even accounting for the stock market crash in 2008.
You are taking about one coin and are comparing it to a universe of stocks. That person could have also bought a boat load of stocks in addition to this nickel so in fact they would be diversified. They could have also bought 5 million dollars worth of Lehman stock in 2007 instead of the nickel and added that to their portfolio instead. In 2008 that 5 million would have been worthiess. They all can’t be winners. In most trades there is a winner and a loser
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm wondering if the current owner is in it for the 'joy" of ownership. If the coin is trending downward, what would be expectation of sale price should it come back up for sale in the near (3-6 year future)?
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
When you buy a coin like that-no matter how wealthy you are, you always buy it with an "investment" attitude. I can tell you BOTH owners of the coin (it is a partnership) will enjoy the pride of ownership. But they BOTH thought that $5 million or below makes the coin a terrific investment. They are thrilled to own it at the price they paid
Who gets possession? His/her vault/bank, your vault/bank, Laura's vault/bank? We'll probably never know.
Is a contract involved to spell out the partnership? Are there certain "rules" about a future sale? At your level are things just done with a hand shake?
Who gets possession? His/her vault/bank, your vault/bank, Laura's vault/bank? We'll probably never know.
Is a contract involved to spell out the partnership? Are there certain "rules" about a future sale? At your level are things just done with a hand shake?
The coin is initially to be held by Legend for periodic display. There’s a very simple buy sell agreement the covers one partner wanting to sell or an offer out of the blue... but pretty much the deal was done on a handshake
No. I’m done with set building. I’m disgusted with what gradeflation is doing to the values of great sets - the Seated Dollar set (2nd go around) was the last great set I’ll ever do
From now on just individual coins that speak to me
What do we know about the previous owner of the coin, Dr. Bill Morton-Smith? Was he a public collector? What did he like to collect?
Here's some info from PCGS:
Dr. Morton-Smith (Bill) hailed from an old-time Boston family whose passion for collecting goes back generations. As in any family, certain heirlooms pass down through the generations and in this particular circumstance, a beautiful antique Colonial desk was inherited by Bill. As he was combing through the desk discovering its many features, he came across a compartment that housed a coin collection consisting of colonial coins, half cents, large cents, a complete set of Proof Liberty Head nickels and much more. These had once belonged to his great grandfather. Bill was amazed that the coins had been in the desk all this time. He determined to learn all he could about them and add to the collection. He spent decades adding important rarities to this prized cabinet started generations before.
He was a wonderful man. He really loved the Nickel and his other coins-which happened to be rarities. The 1794 $1 PCGS MS64 we bought last year was his too. We'll try and buy every coin of his that come for sale.
He certainly sounds so. From his obit, in addition to his medical practice where he was known as "Dr. Bill", he did volunteer and humanitarian work:
Bill never returned to medicine instead shifting his focus towards volunteer and humanitarian work. He worked as Direct Relief International's Chief Medical Officer, took care of the local homeless, and traveled around the globe to help the world's most vulnerable populations.
yes, he did charity work all over the world. I think he founded Direct Relief.
he was very humble. I will never forget when he pulled out a wrinkled yellow piece of paper with his words about the buying the nickel. Its something I have never forgotten. I really tear up thinking about it.
He had no ego. I am happy Bruce and a Legend customer are able to honor his wish of giving the 1913 Nickel a great home.
Comments
P.S. What kind of auction rate/commission do you get for a coin like this?
That makes sense. Being a private sale, I didn’t know where the $5M came from. Let’s see, if TDN sold it for $5M and bought it back for $5.5M. Does that mean he lost $500K too? Thinking about this big money is starting to give me a headache.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Congratulations, TDN. I'm curious what you mean by "own two specific increments." I understand the logic of owning one increment, but I don't understand the benefit of owning two. And how does owning the increment strategy work if an underbidder makes a cut bid? Thanks.
Adjusted for inflation, the price realized represents about a $1.5 million loss not counting the auction house's cut!
No. Capital gains and losses are taken at the time of sale. $5.5 M would be good as it would still represent $1 million loss for the previous owner when adjusted for inflation. See my other post based on the CPI.
Also, think about if the other buyer had invested in the stock market instead. Bruce came out smelling like a rose. Based on the average rate of return for a major stock index (S&P 500), had the previous owner invested $5M in July 2007 and was well diversified, it would be worth approximately $9.316 million today for a profit of $4.316 million ($2.666 million in 2007 dollars adjusted for inflation). This is even accounting for the stock market crash in 2008.
If you bid online, you can own the current increment ($3.8M) AND the next increment ($4M)
That is what we did
Couldn't have someone cut the bid to $3.9 M ($4.68M) and did you hit your max bid (if you don't mind sharing - not being nosy)?
Yes they could have and we owned $4M. No, we did not hit our max bid
Congratulations, Bruce.
Wonderful buy Bruce. Congratulations!
At least it sold this time rather than being passed like in the 2007 auction.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-ARO8A
.
.
Of course, it was only the CAC sticker that caused you to be interested in it again.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Congrats Bruce. Nice scoop
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You are taking about one coin and are comparing it to a universe of stocks. That person could have also bought a boat load of stocks in addition to this nickel so in fact they would be diversified. They could have also bought 5 million dollars worth of Lehman stock in 2007 instead of the nickel and added that to their portfolio instead. In 2008 that 5 million would have been worthiess. They all can’t be winners. In most trades there is a winner and a loser
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
May have to hold the nickel for several years to profit...but I feel the same about putting money in an index fund at today's prices.
Congrats tradedollarnut!
I'm wondering if the current owner is in it for the 'joy" of ownership. If the coin is trending downward, what would be expectation of sale price should it come back up for sale in the near (3-6 year future)?
Well, just Love coins, period.
When you buy a coin like that-no matter how wealthy you are, you always buy it with an "investment" attitude. I can tell you BOTH owners of the coin (it is a partnership) will enjoy the pride of ownership. But they BOTH thought that $5 million or below makes the coin a terrific investment. They are thrilled to own it at the price they paid
In a partnership like this, who gets to sleep with it under their pillow the first night?
Seriously though, congrats Bruce!
Great question. Not really our business but... @tradedollarnut, @unk partner, @specialist if you wish to share...
Who gets possession? His/her vault/bank, your vault/bank, Laura's vault/bank? We'll probably never know.
Is a contract involved to spell out the partnership? Are there certain "rules" about a future sale? At your level are things just done with a hand shake?
Congratulations, Bruce!
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Interesting, after this sale, the Ebay listing for the Walton coin lowered the BIN from 5 Million to 3.8 Million.
Now is shown as no longer for sale.
Chart update.
Note: the June 2018 Walton price is fudged; it was reported as "between 3 and 4 million".
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2018/06/walton-1913-liberty-head-5-cent-gets-new-owners.all.html
https://coinweek.com/us-coins/legend-numismatics-buys-the-5c-1913-nickel-pcgs-pr66-cac/
The coin is initially to be held by Legend for periodic display. There’s a very simple buy sell agreement the covers one partner wanting to sell or an offer out of the blue... but pretty much the deal was done on a handshake
Thank you. I was curious.
well I have been outbid on all of mine
next time perhaps
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Well played. Congrats Bruce and Legend
Latin American Collection
Nice short write-up. Congrats.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Now that you have the toughest coin, will you try to complete the set?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No. I’m done with set building. I’m disgusted with what gradeflation is doing to the values of great sets - the Seated Dollar set (2nd go around) was the last great set I’ll ever do
From now on just individual coins that speak to me
Congratulations!
The article states $4.5M, the url link $45M!
msn.com/en-us/news/us/rare-nickel-sells-for-record-breaking-dollar45-million
Nice to get the coin back!
What do we know about the previous owner of the coin, Dr. Bill Morton-Smith? Was he a public collector? What did he like to collect?
Here's some info from PCGS:
https://www.pcgs.com/news/stacks-bowers-to-sell-finest-known-1913-liberty-head
Here is an article on the 2007 sale posted from Santa Barbara.
https://www.pcgs.com/news/Eliasberg-1913-Liberty-Nickel-Pcgs-Pr-66-Sold-For-5
Here's some info from an obituary for Dr. William Morton-Smith of Santa Barbara. He passed away too young.
https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/newspress/obituary.aspx?n=william-stuart-morton-smith&pid=177487981
He was a wonderful man. He really loved the Nickel and his other coins-which happened to be rarities. The 1794 $1 PCGS MS64 we bought last year was his too. We'll try and buy every coin of his that come for sale.
He certainly sounds so. From his obit, in addition to his medical practice where he was known as "Dr. Bill", he did volunteer and humanitarian work:
yes, he did charity work all over the world. I think he founded Direct Relief.
he was very humble. I will never forget when he pulled out a wrinkled yellow piece of paper with his words about the buying the nickel. Its something I have never forgotten. I really tear up thinking about it.
He had no ego. I am happy Bruce and a Legend customer are able to honor his wish of giving the 1913 Nickel a great home.