Congress really needs to act to protect coin collectors and legitimate a lot of the rare pieces like the aluminum cents from the 70s, any existing 1964-D Peace Dollars, the 1933 saints, the 1913 liberty nickels and similar coins. I hope the Mint will stop seizing rare coins.
If The Mint were to legitimatize 1964-D Peace Dollars and some turned up what would that do to the
Dan Carr 1964-D overstrike coins?
Congress really needs to act to protect coin collectors and legitimate a lot of the rare pieces like the aluminum cents from the 70s, any existing 1964-D Peace Dollars, the 1933 saints, the 1913 liberty nickels and similar coins. I hope the Mint will stop seizing rare coins.
If The Mint were to legitimatize 1964-D Peace Dollars and some turned up what would that due to the
Dan Carr 1964-D overstrike coins?
I don't want to turn this into a thread about him, but I don't think it would change the status of the pieces. I already view the pieces as illegitimate (I'm being nice in my word choice to prevent derailing the thread).
I would be more than happy, if not prefer, to own this one. Have to acknowledge my bias, having appeared (along with my character's car which I provided for the show) on an episode of Hawaii Five-0, albeit the more recent version.
Here pictured - the photo which I took of the Hawaii Five-0 Coin a/k/a the Olsen Specimen of the 1913 Liberty Nickel:
(For any not familiar with the coin and its backstory see CoinWorld write-up linked below.)
@tradedollarnut said:
I have owned both. My preference would be the Eliasberg coin...but the Olsen coin ain’t chopped liver
The Eliasberg specimen does look stunning on the cover of the current "Rare Coin Market Report." As to its provenance Editor Michael Sherman agrees that it is "the finest of the five pieces," and to emphasize the point points out that when Eric Newman broke up the set for the first time, this was the one he hung onto for a few additional years.
Tradedollarnut is in the "Rare Coin" article itself credited as sharing the distinction of being in the ownership chain of custody that subsequently followed beginning with Louis Eliasberg Sr. and then Jay Parrino followed by Ed Lee who then sold it to Legend Collection [Bruce Morelan a/k/a tradedollarnut] circa 2005. "Two years later, it was sold privately to Dr. William Morton Smith after it passed in a January 2007 Stack's Sale."
All that said, the one that's better than "chopped liver" would be welcome on my plate.
@tradedollarnut said:
I note several error in the auction catalog provenance chain for the various nickels:
I owned the Olsen coin personally, not through Legend
Legend never handled the McDermott coin
Just curious, when you had the Olsen coin was it still in the "Hawaii Five-0" holder as I photographed it at the time i saw it at the ANA show in Portland? I believe it is now in a different holder, is that correct if you know?
@Gazes said:
how much do we think this will sell for?
Over 4 million dollars is my guess.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this coin goes for at least 8 million. It may even set a record. I have to make sure that I watch the sale on the Stacks/Bowers app! Finest known of only three known in private hands.
@specialist said:
When Dr Morton-Smith took possession of the coin, ... (his family turned down a multi million dollar offer from me a few months ago).
Special man, special coin.
Its last sale price at 5 million dollars a decade ago certainly qualified as a "multi million dollar offer." Difficult to imagine that it won't have a reserve of at least that sum.
@tradedollarnut said:
I offered $5M for the 1804$1 (and was turned down) right around the time that I sold the 1913 for $5M
The dollar fetched $3.3M last year. Just a data point - read into it what you will.
Makes some sense to use as a gauge for these types of rarities but I imagine it will come down the determination or lack of for 2 or possibly 3 bidders. If that is not there, it will likely sell at the reserve or an increment above.
@tradedollarnut said:
I offered $5M for the 1804$1 (and was turned down) right around the time that I sold the 1913 for $5M
The dollar fetched $3.3M last year. Just a data point - read into it what you will.
Makes some sense to use as a gauge for these types of rarities but I imagine it will come down the determination or lack of for 2 or possibly 3 bidders. If that is not there, it will likely sell at the reserve or an increment above.
Would the absence of a CAC sticker have put downward pressure on the 1804$1 given the relative influence CAC has had on pricing during the ensuing time period? (I ask that not knowing whether the 1804$1 was beaned or not in last years' bidding and whether it had a reserve or not at what amount. Did it actually sell (change hands as opposed to a buy back) for $3.3M or was that where the bidding stopped?)
CAC has its influence in lower priced markets where you have buyers who do not have elite grading skills - it helps protect those buyers.
On extremely high value coins like the 1804 $1, buyers either have excellent grading skills, or they have advisers with those skills. Otherwise their cash will be wasted quickly. So CAC is not relevant on these extremely high value coins.
Also, as TDN has explained in the past, for the 1804 $1, the nominal grade does not matter all that much. What matters is the "pecking order" (the relative rank), which is well known. This is why many people joke about the Eliasberg 1913 Liberty nickel having the CAC sticker; it is not needed.
@yosclimber said:
CAC has its influence in lower priced markets where you have buyers who do not have elite grading skills - it helps protect those buyers.
On extremely high value coins like the 1804 $1, buyers either have excellent grading skills, or they have advisers with those skills. Otherwise their cash will be wasted quickly. So CAC is not relevant on these extremely high value coins.
Also, as TDN has explained in the past, for the 1804 $1, the nominal grade does not matter all that much. What matters is the "pecking order" (the relative rank), which is well known. This is why many people joke about the Eliasberg 1913 Liberty nickel having the CAC sticker; it is not needed.
Has there been any change in the "pecking order" for the 1804 $1 that would explain the drop from 5 million to 3.3 million in a decade?
@northcoin said:
Has there been any change in the "pecking order" for the 1804 $1 that would explain the drop from 5 million to 3.3 million in a decade?
No; the 1804 $1 ranking has been known for decades.
Prices will still vary over time, depending on how many serious bidders there are at a given auction, and on their expectations of the long term value of the coin.
@northcoin said:
Has there been any change in the "pecking order" for the 1804 $1 that would explain the drop from 5 million to 3.3 million in a decade?
No; the 1804 $1 ranking has been known for decades.
Prices will still vary over time, depending on how many serious bidders there are at a given auction, and on their expectations of the long term value of the coin.
@tradedollarnut said:
I’ve owned two of them. The Olsen (Hawaii 5-O) specimen and the Eliasberg specimen
Have you ever seen any of the other 3? From what I gather the two you owned were the highest graded pieces and I was curious as to how all the pieces compared in hand. I wonder if anyone will ever reunite all 5 again if only for an exhibit.
Always wondered: For a truly high-end auction item like this, how easy is it for those "in the know" to name the 2 or 5 or 10 people who might be bidders before the auction even starts?
Seems like it would be a limited field of candidates, for sure...but I don't know how anonymous they make themselves, or how cagy they are about their level of interest.
@yosclimber said:
On extremely high value coins like the 1804 $1, buyers either have excellent grading skills, or they have advisers with those skills. Otherwise their cash will be wasted quickly. So CAC is not relevant on these extremely high value coins.
Also, as TDN has explained in the past, for the 1804 $1, the nominal grade does not matter all that much. What matters is the "pecking order" (the relative rank), which is well known. This is why many people joke about the Eliasberg 1913 Liberty nickel having the CAC sticker; it is not needed.
I agree with you in theory, but part of me wonders whether there really are die hard CAC only fans that would turn down an ultra rarity because of a lack of a sticker. At that price level, the air is super thin and even one naive bidder abstaining can bring down the price significantly. You also assume that all millionaires are intelligent. This is not the case.
A month ago, I would have guessed that the coin would hammer at $4 million.
After seeing the pre-bidding run up to $3.8 a week or two ago, I would have guessed at least $5 million, just because it was hard to believe that either of the two leading bidders would bid anything close to their limit so far before the auction. Apparently, I was wrong about that. And now I'm completely confused!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
A month ago, I would have guessed that the coin would hammer at $4 million.
After seeing the pre-bidding run up to $3.8 a week or two ago, I would have guessed at least $5 million, just because it was hard to believe that either of the two leading bidders would bid anything close to their limit so far before the auction. Apparently, I was wrong about that. And now I'm completely confused!
Andy - we felt we had a very good handle on the value of this coin. It was more important to us to ‘own’ two specific increments by prebidding than to not tip our hand
@tradedollarnut said:
I sold the coin for $5M in 2007. To buy it back for less 11 years later is the bargain of the Century
Agreed. It also doesn't bode well for the market at all. Ditto for the price realized for the Dexter specimen of the 1804 dollar. My numbers for the nickel don't account for inflation, and coins like this tend to perform better than average compared to other U.S. coins too.
Comments
Bidding open; live bidding begins 8/15/2018, 6pm
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-BINKT
If The Mint were to legitimatize 1964-D Peace Dollars and some turned up what would that do to the
Dan Carr 1964-D overstrike coins?
I don't want to turn this into a thread about him, but I don't think it would change the status of the pieces. I already view the pieces as illegitimate (I'm being nice in my word choice to prevent derailing the thread).
I would be more than happy, if not prefer, to own this one. Have to acknowledge my bias, having appeared (along with my character's car which I provided for the show) on an episode of Hawaii Five-0, albeit the more recent version.
Here pictured - the photo which I took of the Hawaii Five-0 Coin a/k/a the Olsen Specimen of the 1913 Liberty Nickel:
(For any not familiar with the coin and its backstory see CoinWorld write-up linked below.)
[https://coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/02/coins-star-on-television-shows-like-hawaii-five-0.all.html](https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/02/coins-star-on-television-shows-like-hawaii-five-0.all.html
https://player.vimeo.com/video/108358641
Lucky I live Hawaii !!!
I have owned both. My preference would be the Eliasberg coin...but the Olsen coin ain’t chopped liver
The Eliasberg specimen does look stunning on the cover of the current "Rare Coin Market Report." As to its provenance Editor Michael Sherman agrees that it is "the finest of the five pieces," and to emphasize the point points out that when Eric Newman broke up the set for the first time, this was the one he hung onto for a few additional years.
Tradedollarnut is in the "Rare Coin" article itself credited as sharing the distinction of being in the ownership chain of custody that subsequently followed beginning with Louis Eliasberg Sr. and then Jay Parrino followed by Ed Lee who then sold it to Legend Collection [Bruce Morelan a/k/a tradedollarnut] circa 2005. "Two years later, it was sold privately to Dr. William Morton Smith after it passed in a January 2007 Stack's Sale."
All that said, the one that's better than "chopped liver" would be welcome on my plate.
Shadow of the green sticker? Or a GOLD sticker under the Green Bean????
I note several error in the auction catalog provenance chain for the various nickels:
I owned the Olsen coin personally, not through Legend
Legend never handled the McDermott coin
Just curious, when you had the Olsen coin was it still in the "Hawaii Five-0" holder as I photographed it at the time i saw it at the ANA show in Portland? I believe it is now in a different holder, is that correct if you know?
Reportedly the grade remains a PR64.
This appear to be ceiling. He coming up sale will tell the story
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Or possibly a floor?
I wouldn’t be surprised if this coin goes for at least 8 million. It may even set a record. I have to make sure that I watch the sale on the Stacks/Bowers app! Finest known of only three known in private hands.
Its last sale price at 5 million dollars a decade ago certainly qualified as a "multi million dollar offer." Difficult to imagine that it won't have a reserve of at least that sum.
I offered $5M for the 1804$1 (and was turned down) right around the time that I sold the 1913 for $5M
The dollar fetched $3.3M last year. Just a data point - read into it what you will.
Makes some sense to use as a gauge for these types of rarities but I imagine it will come down the determination or lack of for 2 or possibly 3 bidders. If that is not there, it will likely sell at the reserve or an increment above.
Would the absence of a CAC sticker have put downward pressure on the 1804$1 given the relative influence CAC has had on pricing during the ensuing time period? (I ask that not knowing whether the 1804$1 was beaned or not in last years' bidding and whether it had a reserve or not at what amount. Did it actually sell (change hands as opposed to a buy back) for $3.3M or was that where the bidding stopped?)
CAC has its influence in lower priced markets where you have buyers who do not have elite grading skills - it helps protect those buyers.
On extremely high value coins like the 1804 $1, buyers either have excellent grading skills, or they have advisers with those skills. Otherwise their cash will be wasted quickly. So CAC is not relevant on these extremely high value coins.
Also, as TDN has explained in the past, for the 1804 $1, the nominal grade does not matter all that much. What matters is the "pecking order" (the relative rank), which is well known. This is why many people joke about the Eliasberg 1913 Liberty nickel having the CAC sticker; it is not needed.
Has there been any change in the "pecking order" for the 1804 $1 that would explain the drop from 5 million to 3.3 million in a decade?
No; the 1804 $1 ranking has been known for decades.
Prices will still vary over time, depending on how many serious bidders there are at a given auction, and on their expectations of the long term value of the coin.
Thanks
How many of the 1913 Liberty Nickels have you owned and which one(s)?
He has owned the PR64 and PR66 (Olsen and Eliasberg)
I’ve owned two of them. The Olsen (Hawaii 5-O) specimen and the Eliasberg specimen
Have you ever seen any of the other 3? From what I gather the two you owned were the highest graded pieces and I was curious as to how all the pieces compared in hand. I wonder if anyone will ever reunite all 5 again if only for an exhibit.
I saw the Norweb coin on display in the Smithsonian. I’ve only seen pics of the Walton coin (gently cleaned?) and the McDermott coin (circulated)
Always wondered: For a truly high-end auction item like this, how easy is it for those "in the know" to name the 2 or 5 or 10 people who might be bidders before the auction even starts?
Seems like it would be a limited field of candidates, for sure...but I don't know how anonymous they make themselves, or how cagy they are about their level of interest.
Color me confused: see the price with buyers fee in this pic?
^^^ They are calculating the next bid increment at $3.2 million + 20% = $3.84 million
Ah. Even tho the next bid is $3M
No one said they had the best computer programmers
And reserve $3mill. Is there actually a "real" bid even on the table?
Well, just Love coins, period.
No need to concern over the reserve anymore. The bid is now at $3.6M.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
I agree with you in theory, but part of me wonders whether there really are die hard CAC only fans that would turn down an ultra rarity because of a lack of a sticker. At that price level, the air is super thin and even one naive bidder abstaining can bring down the price significantly. You also assume that all millionaires are intelligent. This is not the case.
Started at $3.8 m.
Sold for $4.56 m (including buyer's fee: 4.56 = 3.8 x 1.20)
Pretty anti-climactic after all the build up.
Congratulations TDN.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
I predicted as much.
It looks like someone took at least a $500k+ loss. It looks like even the top 1% of the market isn't so sunny.
Is there a way to see the bidder history to see how many people bid over $3 million for it?
A month ago, I would have guessed that the coin would hammer at $4 million.
After seeing the pre-bidding run up to $3.8 a week or two ago, I would have guessed at least $5 million, just because it was hard to believe that either of the two leading bidders would bid anything close to their limit so far before the auction. Apparently, I was wrong about that. And now I'm completely confused!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
To clarify, the coin was purchased by Bruce Morelan and a customer of legend Numismatics. It was a partnership.
Andy - we felt we had a very good handle on the value of this coin. It was more important to us to ‘own’ two specific increments by prebidding than to not tip our hand
this nickel is nothing. on Aug 24th watch what a ferrari will sell for
I don’t follow the 500K loss?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
TDN said somewhere that he sold the coin for $5 million.
I sold the coin for $5M in 2007. To buy it back for less 11 years later is the bargain of the Century
Agreed. It also doesn't bode well for the market at all. Ditto for the price realized for the Dexter specimen of the 1804 dollar. My numbers for the nickel don't account for inflation, and coins like this tend to perform better than average compared to other U.S. coins too.