An interesting Early "Bar" Copper for Review- Not a Chinese Counterfeit

burfle23

This one actually goes back to the '70's and an article written by Newman about a series of counterfeit Colonial "coins".

The 1st image is of the one he documented (on the right) and a recent internet listed example (which was removed):

And then there were more, including two example submitted to a TPG:

Research article at: https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/struck-counterfeit-coin-week-1785-bar-copper-1-page-attribution-guide/

Best, Jack

davewesen

It looks like they could not tell which side is up on the reverse - same planchet defect at 4-10 o'clock

burfle23

@davewesen said:
It looks like they could not tell which side is up on the reverse - same planchet defect at 4-10 o'clock

I have seen them imaged both ways davewesen!

EXOJUNKIE

Interesting. Thanks for posting this.

ECHOES

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/599

I first saw this coin in the Redbook, and have always found it to be very interesting.
A very simple yet beautiful design.
Hope one day to own one.

BLUEJAYWAY

@ECHOES said:
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/599

I first saw this coin in the Redbook, and have always found it to be very interesting.
A very simple yet beautiful design.
Hope one day to own one.

I agree. Sometimes less is more. Always like this coin when I first saw the photo in a Redbook.

grip

Anyone know the mintage?

ricko

Beautiful, simple old coin.... Living in a colonial area, I always hoped to find one of these while metal detecting... Still no luck... Cheers, RickO

Zoins

The first thing that gave it away was the size! It's huge!

Zoins

@burfle23 said:
And then there were more, including two example submitted to a TPG:

Interesting TrueViews. Did PCGS add the edges images or were they added by someone else?

burfle23

@Zoins said:

@burfle23 said:
And then there were more, including two example submitted to a TPG:

Interesting TrueViews. Did PCGS add the edges images or were they added by someone else?

PCGS did the views.

Cameonut

Interesting.
Thanks for posting this. I learned a few things today.

coinsarefun

Here is my struck counterfeit
I posted a thread awhile back comparing real, Bolen and struck Counterfeits
.
.

burfle23

@coinsarefun said:
Here is my struck counterfeit
I posted a thread awhile back comparing real, Bolen and struck Counterfeits

Cool post coinsarefun! Thanks for the note.

grip

Little more info...Mintage unknown.

The Bar "Cents" first appeared in the American Colonies in 1785, when they joined the mix of motley coppers then in circulation. Their weight was too low to be valued at a Cent, but the name has stuck through use and tradition (in fact, the weight is almost identical to the U.S. Half Cents of 1795 and later years). The obverse copies the U.S.A. monogram seen on pewter buttons worn on the uniforms of Continental soldiers. The reverse consists of thirteen parallel bars, signifying the original 13 Colonies. Their simple, patriotic design makes them a favorite with collectors, although they are rather scarce and expensive.

Bar "Cents" were made in England, possibly at Wyon's mint in Birmingham (more famous for their Nova Constellatio Coppers). Various forgeries exist, ranging in quality from crude casts to excellent struck copies and electrotypes. All genuine examples have a small, thorn-like projection on the far right side of the bottom edge of the second bar from the top (this defect is seen clearly on the illustration above). Electrotypes will also show this projection, so authentication is mandatory.

Breen lists two specimens that are known on larger, oval planchets and speculates that they might have been "...some kind of special presentation or souvenir striking", but this is unlikely. Until the weights of these two unusual examples is ascertained, we can only speculate that they are normal strikes on misshapen blanks.

The finest Bar "Cent" certified by PCGS is a single MS-66 Brown.

ECHOES

@grip,
Thanks!

Zoins

@burfle23 said:

@Zoins said:

@burfle23 said:
And then there were more, including two example submitted to a TPG:

Interesting TrueViews. Did PCGS add the edges images or were they added by someone else?

PCGS did the views.

Nice. Are there any that still online? I'd like to add an edge view to the TrueView Generations and Types page:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/993302/pcgs-trueview-generations-and-types

Zoins

@coinsarefun said:
Here is my struck counterfeit
I posted a thread awhile back comparing real, Bolen and struck Counterfeits
.
.

It's nice that the Bolen ones are slabbed and collectible, along with similar pieces like the Scoville Fugios and Nagy Baldwin territorial pieces. The Bolen Bar cent in silver and the Scoville Fugio in silver are neat. If there's enough interest, I wonder if TPGs will slab these pieces.

coinsarefun

@Zoins said:

It's nice that the Bolen ones are slabbed and collectible, along with similar pieces like the Scoville Fugios and Nagy Baldwin territorial pieces. The Bolen Bar cent in silver and the Scoville Fugio in silver are neat. If there's enough interest, I wonder if TPGs will slab these pieces.

.
.
.
I wish they would, but most would feel it legitimizes them. I look at it that it’s worth more in a slab and
if noted as such on slab then the unscrupulous ones would not try to pass it off as the real one.
Maybe like other stuff, marcked as ‘fantasy”

kaz

I noticed that CRO has one of the oval planchets on their website.

Zoins

@kaz said:
I noticed that CRO has one of the oval planchets on their website.

Here's the CoinFacts image:

sellitstore

"The Bar "Cents" first appeared in the American Colonies in 1785"

Minor correction: There were no American colonies by 1785. We were the Confederation from 1783-89.

23Pairer

Here is my corroding example, impulse purchase on the BST 8 years or so ago. I know nothing about it:

Aegis3

@grip said:
Little more info...

Breen lists two specimens that are known on larger, oval planchets and speculates that they might have been "...some kind of special presentation or souvenir striking", but this is unlikely. Until the weights of these two unusual examples is ascertained, we can only speculate that they are normal strikes on misshapen blanks.

These were in a couple of 1990s era Stack's auctions (May 1991, Sept 1993, both in the NNP). Weights were listed as 85.2 and 86.8 grains.

Zoins

@coinsarefun said:

@Zoins said:

It's nice that the Bolen ones are slabbed and collectible, along with similar pieces like the Scoville Fugios and Nagy Baldwin territorial pieces. The Bolen Bar cent in silver and the Scoville Fugio in silver are neat. If there's enough interest, I wonder if TPGs will slab these pieces.

.
I wish they would, but most would feel it legitimizes them. I look at it that it’s worth more in a slab and
if noted as such on slab then the unscrupulous ones would not try to pass it off as the real one.
Maybe like other stuff, marcked as ‘fantasy”

Perhaps, it would be more likely if someone did some more research on these and attributed them to company or die sinker?

coinsarefun

@23Pairer said:
Here is my corroding example, impulse purchase on the BST 8 years or so ago. I know nothing about it:

.
.
To me this looks like an electrotype, perhaps I’m wrong but the raised lumps make think so.
Can you get a pic of the edge? Or if you look do you see a line that might indicate it’s an electro?

coinsarefun

@Zoins said:

@coinsarefun said:

@Zoins said:

>

Perhaps, it would be more likely if someone did some more research on these and attributed them to company or die sinker?

.
.
I don’t think it’s possible to find out who. If I remember correctly when I spoke to Mike at NER
He mentioned a name that was responsible or attributed to someone but forget who. I’ll look through me emails and get back to you. But the ones he mentioned are much higher quality than all the others.