Opinions on an interesting 1798 Large Cent? Confirmed Struck Counterfeit
burfle23
Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭✭✭
The 1st image is of my 1798 “S-158” large cent (images courtesy PCGS). Reviewing images of this one versus a known genuine example (image also courtesy PCGS/ Coin Facts) shows a couple of “anomalies”:
1) The “Y” is too long for any currently known 1798 large cent
2) The die break on the reverse is partially missing and not seen in this “state” for the closest “varieties” (common reverse for NC-2 and S-158)
A similar example was initially thought to possibly be a new undiscovered variety, but…
The 3rd image is of another matching example sold on eBay in 2013 as “repaired” (thought to be the genuine source coin):
Research article posted by Coin Week at: https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/struck-counterfeit-coin-week-interesting-1798-s-158-large-cent-1-page-attribution-guide/
Best, Jack
Comments
I would be interested in an XRF test on these.
Would you consider these counterfeits as high quality?
When is the earliest these were seen?
Yes, high quality; of the 8 documented so far 7 were in TPG holders. A second example I own (in a holder) was originally sold by a major auction house.
XRF showed 99.8% Cu.
Of the "varieties" we have been documenting the earliest is 2011 for a struck counterfeit 1806 half cent (and then in a major auction).
Any idea from where these emanate?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
The first one has the typical Chinese counterfeit finish. The third one has a look that is possible for old copper, except for the ligher spots that could raise red flags.
Originally there was an eBay buyer in China buying "source" coins; many of the initial examples were sold through the internet out of a residence in Texas- several different seller names. Many of these were posted here when this latest wave started back in 2015.
@BillJones said: "The first one has the typical Chinese counterfeit finish."
I'm going to disagree with this opinion. There is NOTHING even close to the "typical" Chinese counterfeit finish on any of these EXTREMELY Deceptive "State-of-the-Art fakes. The fact that a few have been certified as genuine just may confirm my opinion!
"Yes, high quality; of the 8 documented so far 7 were in TPG holders. A second example I own (in a holder) was originally sold by a major auction house. "
Time to find something else to collect..... Maybe Chinese coins, since counterfeit Chinese coins are illegal to produce in China.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
where is Jack Young when you need him
He post on some facebook groups. These coins are becoming more common truly high quality counterfeits. Scary how good these coins are.
The certified fakes that I saw at the EAC convention last year all had the same fake finish. The one here is typical from what I've seen. Once you get to know what their current fake finish looks like, it's an initial warning sign. Sometimes it even has specks of bright green corrosion.
Of course pointing this out will only make them experiment more.
If the coin dealers themselves didn't detect it what made you suspicious that it was different or counterfeit?
Trying to attribute it was the first "red flag"- it didn't match any known 1798 variety. Then a second was found, and then a third, all with matching "circulation" marks including the divot on the bust.
To another comment, appear to be various "finishes" associate with the family to date...
Just a note, I own #'s 2, 4 and 6.
LOL, and if you believe this is being enforced ....
IMHO, there are already so many very deceptive fake Chinese coins in this country that... Ah, never mind. We'll just need to wait and see what happens in the future.
Whatever.
Now I'm really curious.
What power microscope did you use to view this "typical" surface?
I am as well, as I believe it was my exhibit...
I'm amazed (and a little sickened) at the wide variation in the surfaces and the color
these fakes present.
Point taken. I cannot even read Chinese (yet), so it wouldn't take much to fool me in this regard. I've started collecting rare cacti--some ones with fake spines would be welcome.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Agreed; another interesting copper, one of my 3 1806 "half cents":
Surprised? Copper is a very reactive metal. When you wish to become "wicked sick," take a look at all the colors found on genuine copper coins in the EAC Grading Guide.
It's not the surface; it's the color. It's always dark and usually streaky in a way which to my eye is not natural for an old copper coin that has been stripped and has begun to retone, or is perhaps getting some help.
Well then, It's a sure thing that you have seen more "coppers" than I have.
**I'm amazed (and a little sickened) at the wide variation in the surfaces and the color
these fakes present.
Surprised? Copper is a very reactive metal. When you wish to become "wicked sick," take a look at all the colors found on genuine copper coins in the EAC Grading Guide.
**
Yes, I'm familiar with the reactivity of copper, and own over 150 large cents of my own. I also realize that back when the originals were being minted, the planchets came from various sources, traveled overseas in ship's holds, and had centuries to obtain additional color and patina.....my point is, these counterfeiters are apparently going to considerable lengths to hide these, rather than just churn out identical matching pieces.
That's one of the things to get them to pass as genuine. A little wear, a little ED, a few nicks... If the counterfeiters were not so greedy they would only strike a few coins from each fake die and release them slowly at a small local show or coin shop rather than Ebay. It would take even longer to detect them than it did for the latest batch (3 to 5 years?)
Don't worry, I'm not revealing anything they don't already know! I'll bet there are possibly at least a dozen different undetected fakes in the market right now!!
Unfortunately we have written 15 research articles documenting as many different "varieties", but I have matches to write 10 or so more...
Working on counterfeit 1803 half cents with what I call "originals" and "re-strikes", as they "coined" several examples and then re-engraved the dies to add additional details and change the appearance.
What a revolting development this is...I had been seriously considering getting a large cent of that vintage...I need to do a lot more research now... sure do not want to get a fake. Cheers, RickO
I hate seeing this but I’m glad it’s being discussed.
Fascinating (and disturbing) thread. Thank you for sharing it here, and hoping you will continue to do so going forward. To me, it's all the more reason to buy TPG graded coins with an authenticity guarantee and/or from a reputable dealer that stands behind their coins. Thanks again...Mike
Agreed Mike; I was involved over the Easter weekend with a listed slabbed counterfeit 1836 Gobrecht dollar. The TPG bought it back after reviewing the research and the owner was relieved!
Found my 2nd example from a 2013 auction in a TPG slab image over the weekend; there were 3 counterfeit "coins" and 1 probable source coin for another in the same submission group.
I have loaned 2 examples to a friend conducting classes at this month's ANA; should be interesting!
These fakes are good enough to destroy confidence in the market as they are apparently getting by the major TPGs. How many more dates are out there and not yet discovered? There's trouble in River City ... terrible trouble!
Don't panic. It has ALWAYS been this way. Over the past half Century, as each "new" advancement in the production of counterfeits occurred, it took a while for the "market" to catch up. We will.
All of us can help ourselves and the TPGS's by examining our coins closer than we ever have before to learn what a genuine coin should look like. The counterfeiters still are not perfect. Within less than a decade, as prices continue to rise, I predict State-of-the-Art fakes are going to be seen on inexpensive coins such as 1946-D Walking Liberty's.
Please note that I said "confidence in the market". This is what TPG authentication is all about. If that confidence is lost the market will tumble. There is too much money tied up in coin collections to fool around if high quality counterfeits are getting past the TPGs. Collectors will start heading for the exits.
The TPG's still instill confidence in my opinion with their guarantees of authenticity; I have been involved with buy backs ranging from $700.00 to $14K.
@291fifth said: "Please note that I said "confidence in the market". This is what TPG authentication is all about. If that confidence is lost the market will tumble. There is too much money tied up in coin collections to fool around if high quality counterfeits are getting past the TPGs. Collectors will start heading for the exits."
Please note what I said: "Don't panic. It has ALWAYS been this way. Over the past half Century, as each "new" advancement in the production of counterfeits occurred, it took a while for the "market" to catch up. We will."
First, it was just dealers missing counterfeits, then it became Authentication services missing counterfeits, next it was TPGS's missing counterfeits. There is nothing new here. Confidence in the market ebbs and flows. It has ALWAYS been this way. From folks backing away from Pillar dollars and British Trade dollars in the '70's because of some cracked-eye old fart calling perfectly genuine coins counterfeit to Centuries old C/F Morgan dollars accepted as genuine. Unfortunately, due to marketing by the folks who were fooled, they are expensive and highly desirable collectibles. Then came the deceptive American Trade and Flowing Hair dollars and today it is counterfeit copper. Ebb and flow. The real excitement for those of us who are not panicked is to see what's coming next.
My "excitement" is tempered with how we will even know!
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