Very Deceptive Counterfeit 1836 Gobrecht “Dollars” and the Source Coin

burfle23

One of my previous posts was in regards to damaged genuine “source” coins (coins repaired and used to make counterfeit dies) and the resulting struck fakes. A “variety” left out of the previous research is one of the most significant, counterfeit 1836 Gobrecht “dollars”.

The “discovery” was made almost accidentally after being approached by an ex-internet seller (linked to several I followed) offering an example for sale for $3000.00- sounds like a bargain, right? The “coin” was to be sent “origin China” via the Netherlands.

No deal was struck, but the images provided sparked a deeper dive and resulted in the research article published by Coin Week at: https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/struck-counterfeit-coin-week-repaired-1836-gobrecht-dollar-1-page-attribution-guide/

Images have also been saved at the Newman Numismatic Portal (https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/imagedetail/554986?col=510561) and Saul Teichman’s pattern website referenced in the article (http://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/cij6co.html)...

burfle23

Comments welcomed!

RogerB

Very interesting and potentially helpful article and information!

KindaNewish

Good work!

mustangmanbob

Comments from the article:

"It later appeared plugged and cleaned in a StacksBowers 11/10 auction.

it apparently was used to create copy dies from which several fakes were struck. Two of these fakes were offered as lot numbers 12492 and 13217 in StacksBowers 1/13 sale, one slabbed by NGC and the other by PCGS. "

What hope do mere mortals like me have when even TPG's are taken in?

burfle23

@mustangmanbob said:
Comments from the article:

What hope do mere mortals like me have when even TPG's are taken in?

I'm in the same boat mustangmanbob, but I have the luxury of time and reference material to help spot these; beyond the trademark repeating marks (which you need more than one example to see) all of the "varieties" discussed have irregular details that do not match known genuine examples, which is the first red flag in the evaluation.

ricko

Counterfeit coins... the really good ones... have fooled most of the experts at one time or another...i.e. the Omega coins... and many others.... We spot the obvious and not so obvious fakes all the time...and we have experts who spot the tough ones... and yes, the good ones sometimes get into slabs.... Think of it more as a challenge (since we will never stop the counterfeiters)... and learn your series... remember, counterfeiting is already illegal - crooks do not obey the law - and NO LAW prevents crimes, they merely define it and recommend punishment. Cheers, RickO

davewesen

scary good

burfle23

Agreed Dave; these have fooled some pretty heavy hitters!

burfle23

My example # 8 from the article (in a TPG holder) came up for sale tonight on a dealer's FB site...

Jimnight

One must be vigilant!

BillJones

I wonder if sticking to high grade, no problem material is one defense? So far it seems like only the low grade, "details" material has gotten past the TPGs. The luxury of being able to mess with piece to scrape off the problem marks is a big advantage for the crooks.

Zoins

@BillJones said:
I wonder if sticking to high grade, no problem material is one defense? So far it seems like only the low grade, "details" material has gotten past the TPGs. The luxury of being able to mess with piece to scrape off the problem marks is a big advantage for the crooks.

I mentioned this potential collecting scenario a while back and, unfortunately, it seems to be coming true. Hopefully, we can find a stop to this.

A major issue with counterfeits seems to be collector interest, an example of which is in a recent Trade Dollar thread.

burfle23

I agree with both Billjones and Zoins and have had conversations with several TPG's regarding the risk associated with certifying details type coins- I understand there is a huge upside for the TPG's in revenue but the biggest area of risk for mistakes, especially if you are under the gun to crank coins through the submission process.

Those that have or take the time necessary have a better chance of flushing these out in my opinion.

Early copper is unique from Trade or Morgan etc dollars due to the nature of wear and tear on examples of the early series and the documentation established with the likes of Noyes, etc that, using a high grade pedigreed example as the die host would raise suspicion on the resulting struck fakes in my opinion; I am not so sure about pedigree info for the likes of these 1836 Gobrechts...

Jack

burfle23

The slabbed example listed for sale over the weekend on a Dealer FB page- the images show the damaged source, the repaired source and this "for sale" example on the right:

Listing was pulled after notification, but these are still "out there"...

burfle23

Finally added an example to my growing collection; coin is correct for the 2nd group struck of this variety with medal alignment, eagle flying level. The diameter and weight are correct for the stated standard of the time, but the silver content scans at a higher % than the stated standard.

burfle23

And a recent update- these continue to be very deceptive to collectors and TPGs alike:

This is my counterfeit now in a genuine TPG holder...

Zoins

@burfle23 said:
Finally added an example to my growing collection; coin is correct for the 2nd group struck of this variety with medal alignment, eagle flying level. The diameter and weight are correct for the stated standard of the time, but the silver content scans at a higher % than the stated standard.

Score!

Zoins

I've been thinking about getting a low grade, certified Gobrecht dollar but I've been wondering how risky these coins are now, even when slabbed due to fake slabs.

Love the headline photo:

LanceNewmanOCC

so long as one can guarantee a slab through cert/qr/chip etc technology, at least a person is still covered by the guarantee, right? buy higher-dollar coins from a long-time reputable dealer so if it turns out the item has "issues" then you have someone in the line that can/will help to find a solution.

we are seeing these threads but i'd still bank on the notion that they represent a small percentage overall of known populations of all type coins and all this info tells us to get to scanning these things and see how far off they are on % of metal content (and other specs, reed/dentil counts, diameters etc) and then we up our game and create/get more inexpensive ways of scanning.

all the shops i go to that have been around a while have one or more types of scanning devices and/or have some VERY knowledgeable people on-staff. perhaps the start of a new book on these known coins and their diagnostics. lets be realistic, it will be difficult for us to burn these pups into memory for all the different types so other measures need to be taken to protect/educate ourselves and THANKS to those doing this work and to PCGS especially for allowing it here as it may have an up-front cost but will save MUCH more on the back end not to mention garner even more of my confidence and loyalty because this will help collectors and it turn also help the TPG. Kinda one of those "what goes around comes around, in a good way".

it would be nice to live in a world where we could just do something and enjoy it at face value without risk but that isn't the case very often these days but there is still plenty of fun to be had...

generalfrodo4

I own the coin (repaired source) they used to make the counterfeits...... Its sad that it was used for such criminal acts as to fool potential buyers and TPGs but it is cool to know what they actually were able to do as evidence by their mighty good handiwork.

generalfrodo4

It was holed then as seen repaired, believed to be repaired by Allen Stockman out of KY. IDK if that is true but it what I was told. I really love the Gobrecht Dollar type it is my favorite coin. This is the second one I have owned the first was not as nice and was original coin alignment

burfle23

Thanks for the follow-up @generalfrodo4 !

Zoins

@generalfrodo4 said:
I own the coin (repaired source) they used to make the counterfeits...... Its sad that it was used for such criminal acts as to fool potential buyers and TPGs but it is cool to know what they actually were able to do as evidence by their mighty good handiwork.

Do you remember who you purchased it from?

I heard they use the host coin and then sell it when they are done with it.

Namvet69

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Peace Roy

burfle23

@Zoins said:

@generalfrodo4 said:
I own the coin (repaired source) they used to make the counterfeits...... Its sad that it was used for such criminal acts as to fool potential buyers and TPGs but it is cool to know what they actually were able to do as evidence by their mighty good handiwork.

Do you remember who you purchased it from?

I heard they use the host coin and then sell it when they are done with it.

As I recorded it, the coin was sold in a Heritage auction; I actually also wrote a summary article on these for the LSCC's Gobrecht Journal.

Zoins

@burfle23 said:

@Zoins said:

@generalfrodo4 said:
I own the coin (repaired source) they used to make the counterfeits...... Its sad that it was used for such criminal acts as to fool potential buyers and TPGs but it is cool to know what they actually were able to do as evidence by their mighty good handiwork.

Do you remember who you purchased it from?

I heard they use the host coin and then sell it when they are done with it.

As I recorded it, the coin was sold in a Heritage auction; I actually also wrote a summary article on these for the LSCC's Gobrecht Journal.

Good to know. I wonder if the consigner was part of the counterfeiting group and, if so, if Heritage can provide the consigner's information to the relevant investigation groups.

generalfrodo4

@Zoins said:

@generalfrodo4 said:
I own the coin (repaired source) they used to make the counterfeits...... Its sad that it was used for such criminal acts as to fool potential buyers and TPGs but it is cool to know what they actually were able to do as evidence by their mighty good handiwork.

Do you remember who you purchased it from?

I heard they use the host coin and then sell it when they are done with it.

I purchased it off eBay in November of 2019 from eternitycoin he bought it earlier in September of 2019 from HA. I don't know more than that previously. I do find tracing the pedigree to be helpful when buying a rare coin of course but unless it was a Korien or a Eliasburg or some other famous collector the odds of chasing down to it's history is hard. And this one obviously has a suspicious past that we know of. Glad I could give in tell on it. And you probably won't believe what I ran into on the 16th at the Dalton coin show in Georgia. I found another potential copy of this coin. It matched basically on every major scratch you can see on the coin front and back. I'll post a pic of it soon unfortunately it was taken with my phone camera but you can still see some of the suspected marks still. It's amazing that they went to such an extent to fool even the most respected and experienced of dealers. I'm not surprised though they have fooled the TPGs and they have successfully fooled many great coin experts in the field who unknowingly have been taken by their enchantments. Thanks everyone for the help, I really appreciate this thread it has really been a blessing.

CalifornianKing

Glad it was found out..

burfle23

@generalfrodo4 said:

@Zoins said:

@generalfrodo4 said:
I own the coin (repaired source) they used to make the counterfeits...... Its sad that it was used for such criminal acts as to fool potential buyers and TPGs but it is cool to know what they actually were able to do as evidence by their mighty good handiwork.

Do you remember who you purchased it from?

I heard they use the host coin and then sell it when they are done with it.

I purchased it off eBay in November of 2019 from eternitycoin he bought it earlier in September of 2019 from HA. I don't know more than that previously. I do find tracing the pedigree to be helpful when buying a rare coin of course but unless it was a Korien or a Eliasburg or some other famous collector the odds of chasing down to it's history is hard. And this one obviously has a suspicious past that we know of. Glad I could give in tell on it. And you probably won't believe what I ran into on the 16th at the Dalton coin show in Georgia. I found another potential copy of this coin. It matched basically on every major scratch you can see on the coin front and back. I'll post a pic of it soon unfortunately it was taken with my phone camera but you can still see some of the suspected marks still. It's amazing that they went to such an extent to fool even the most respected and experienced of dealers. I'm not surprised though they have fooled the TPGs and they have successfully fooled many great coin experts in the field who unknowingly have been taken by their enchantments. Thanks everyone for the help, I really appreciate this thread it has really been a blessing.

Did you find the images?

burfle23

The repaired source was again sold on the Bay; had a conversation going with the seller but it seemed to have ended after the sale.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284341743139?fbclid=IwAR2szbt_TDvurUk90qdkQkSR-nvhSv_QnH4RlbS4PmtdAXyHUnZMV7UEwpI&nma=true&si=a5b7MxwBqIz%2FLTj4i4k03VHU7mw%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

pmh1nic

@burfle23 said:
The repaired source was again sold on the Bay; had a conversation going with the seller but it seemed to have ended after the sale.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284341743139?fbclid=IwAR2szbt_TDvurUk90qdkQkSR-nvhSv_QnH4RlbS4PmtdAXyHUnZMV7UEwpI&nma=true&si=a5b7MxwBqIz%2FLTj4i4k03VHU7mw%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I'm getting in on this late. Is the "repaired source" a legit coin that is being used to make the copies? Also, if the dollar was actually issued by the U.S. government as legal tender would investigating these copies be something the Secret Service would be involved in?

burfle23

Yes, the damaged/ repaired source coins are the genuine examples used to make the dies to strike the very deceptive clones.

And yes, Secret Service is interested and I shared my research with them.

dcarr

Weren't there some other holed (then repaired) coin types that later had "clones" show up ?
If so, and if both types of coins were repaired by the same person, I would start the investigation right there with that person.

burfle23

@dcarr said:
Weren't there some other holed (then repaired) coin types that later had "clones" show up ?
If so, and if both types of coins were repaired by the same person, I would start the investigation right there with that person.

Yes, I wrote a series of articles on them; documented the Group responsible in research and informed Secret Service and Texas CBP.

generalfrodo4

Sorry I've been gone a while, yes indeed unfortunately I was forced to sell the coin due to unforseen circumstances, but if there is any more information I can provide on the matter I gladly would. I continue to collect and am hoping to square away another Gobrecht for my collection but that is fully dependent on the authenticity of the coin. So we will see.