1803 dollar, then and now. What a difference.
JRocco
Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
I purchased this 1803 large 3 in an old green label PCI slab graded 35 if I remember about 6 years ago.
I liked the coin for what I paid but thought the coin had a coating of oil/grease/film on her.
Here is the coin a half dozen or so years ago.
Well I cracked her out and gave her a multi-day acetone soaking, changing the acetone every day.
I then put her in a nice old yellow coin envelope and put her aside without touching for about 6 years.
Now I admit my photo skills are very limited, but here she is now and I think she looks a lot better than these
pics show. She is not dull, she is vibrant. The green has more yellow than the pics show. Now remember, this coin saw nothing from me but acetone and anold coin envelope.
I was surprised.
Now back into the envelope, but back to bed heads down.
Comments
I love the coin and would be happy to own it, but to my untrained eye the "before" pic looks like the coin had been cleaned (with all that dark dirt and grime around the devices, but clear and clean fields), and the "after" picture looks colorful and appealing, but not natural (I would not expect that toning on a circulated coin).
Take all of that with a grain of salt as I have no experience with these, and in any case I'd be happy to own it myself.
That is some terrific secondary toning. Congrats. If I had put it away for six years, it would've come out of the envelope a lovely shade of matte coal black, probably. LOL
PS- nowadays I spend much less "hands-on" time with my coins than I do looking at them on a monitor, but I must say that there is NO way I could've possibly left a coin like that untouched in an envelope for six years.
No offense intended, to each his own. I don’t see this as an improvement. If you like that’s all that matters
PPS- the OP photo looks like PCGS plastic, not green-label PCI?
Hey JBK,
I believe the coin had been cleaned also. I felt it was cleaned and then coated with some type of oil or whatever prior to the slab. That i why I freed her and gave her what I thought would be the best chance to recover.
Looking at the retoning I think it might have been dipped prior to the oil also as this looks like retoning after a dip to me.
No offense whatsoever. I just believed the coin had no future where it was.
I will have to see if I have any old slab pics....memory is a terrible thing sometimes
Glad you like. Good luck with the flip side
You can see the "S" in "PCGS" in the first pic. Besides, PCI used white inserts in the green label era, not clear, unless I am now the one whose memory is slipping. It happens. (More and more for me lately, it seems.)
I like it ! ! !
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Took another pic that might be a little better. Not professional mind you, but maybe better
@JRocco said: "Looking at the retoning I think it might have been dipped prior to the oil also as this looks like retoning after a dip to me."
I disagree. While anything is possible, I've never seen "blue colored dip toning."
I'm not sure what you mean by "blue colored dip toning".
I am referring to the toning that can develop on an old silver coin after it has been dipped.
Blue being one of the colors that may develop.
The coin here is the coin. It will retone however it wants to retone as I have zero choice in the
matter at this point.
This: "...retoning after a dip to me." You said you only "dipped the coin in acetone." Generally, many folks use "dip" to refer to a treatment with a chemical like EZ-est. These generally do not turn "blue" when not neutralized.
I tried to be clear, but maybe I wasn't.
I did not dip this coin. I said that I believed the coin was dipped prior to being slabbed by whoever
owned the coin. I said the coin looked like it was covered with an oil or something similar to that inside the slab.
When I cracked the coin and soaked it in acetone I believe I removed the coating of oil or whatever was on the coin.
This removal of the oil exposed the surface of the coin to retoning.
Having been around coins for a long time I was able to determine that the coin was dipped prior to me purchasing it.
Faced with the choice of leaving the coin as is or trying as best as possible to conserve the coin with no more than
an acetone bath, I chose that option..
I can not undo what had been done to this coin prior to my purchase, but I can do my best to try to conserve the
coin now that I own it.
I gave it a cleaning with acetone and am now giving it a chance to do whatever nature does to silver while sitting in
a coin envelope. And yes I like this coin. It is an 1803 silver dollar with enough meat on her bones to be a collectors
coin for me and another few generations now that the surfaces have been cleaned and it is being stored properly.
I like it
Ouch. My eyes! My eyes!
wont straight grade, color looks "well" questionable" at best
I don't think it would straight-grade, either, but I wouldn't turn up my nose at it. I like it.
Wow! Amazing use of colours this piece has. This 1803 dollar surely depicts class. The toning on this coin is amazing, I am really impressed by the use of colour.
As I stated above it only matters that you like it. But you had a PCGS coin straight graded and now you have “created “ a coin that imo wouldn’t straight grade. I will admit to having zero interest in the AT craze. So I’m biased against a coin with this look.
If you felt the coin had issues (oily surface etc.) before purchase imo just pass on the coin.
Based on the pictures, I prefer the pre-acetone coin....That being said, if I had seen it 'in hand', I may well have agreed with your course of action....Cheers, RickO
I have not "created" anything.
This is akin to discovering a nice old gold coin that had putty applied to her.
Do you "create" a coin if you remove the putty from the surface ?
Should the puttied coin be thrown away or should the putty be removed and let the
coin recover on it's own ?
Does PCGS remove the putty from an 1803 coin when a coin is returned to them or do they melt it ?
Secondly, I did not nor do I claim that the coin would straight grade....then or now.
Thirdly, I also have zero interest in the AT craze.
And finally, the coin was not in a PCGS slab it was in a SEGS slab as I have discovered from my notes.
It was purchased at a very strong discounted price that would have been foolish to pass up.
Even in it's current non-created condition it was well worth the purchase price.
I cannot understand why you seen to be upset by the posts. Just as I misunderstood your use of the word "dip" I think you may have misunderstood the use of "create."
It is your coin to do as you please. Most of us would have bought it at the "right price" (different for all).
That said, you did "create" this thing by putting it in an envelope and letting it tone. Unfortunately, there are many folks who would call it AT. Even some posting here that know the coin's history and know (according to you) that this color took years to happen. Good Luck with your coin.
PS I recommend that you do nothing else to that coin - no more additional color on either side.
I am not upset insider2. I have been here a long time and have pretty thick skin.
I just don't like assumptions that lead to incorrect conclusions.
I have tried to be very clear in this post and totally understand differing opinions.
I would have not have expected less from some very smart coin people. I knew this post would have
many critics and posted it regardless.
I am trying to recover a doctored coin not create one.
Your opinion does mean a lot to me as I value your experience and willingness to share.
Even when I disagree, I value your opinion.
As for the word "create" in parenthesis.....maybe I did misunderstand it's use/meaning.
Also understand that after I removed what I perceived to be a coating from this coin I hoped the
coin would recover magnificently... but I really had no influence other than to try to give it as good
an environment as possible, hence the coin envelope.
My pockets are not as deep as some who drop 5 and 6 figures on a coin in this category.
If the coins surfaces recover to any degree that is a good thing for keeping another nice
old coin out of the "doctored" group. Like I said, I can't do anything about what was done to
the coin by anyone prior to my purchase, but now that it is mine I am going to try to give her
a chance.
I don’t think I’d keep it in the envelope any more.
You have several informed members here who like the coin. I think it looks better than it did. I also think it has a 68% chance of being labeled as AT due to the changes about toning going on at the TPGS that I have read about on CU. That's why I suggest you keep it as is.
168%
It really does matter who places the coin in the "nice old yellow coin envelope." Sometimes the praises come raining down from these same critics.
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Thanks for the clarification on the grading service. A previous comment stated they believed it was PCGS coin, and in your original post you weren’t certain.
No conservative service I know of would keep your coin for six years hoping for a good outcome. That is where my create comment originated from.
My intention only counts when I’m buying the coin
Best wishes. Enjoy your coin
WOW!
A major difference is the OP's coin was probably left in the envelope too long as it is approaching the "Black" Environmental Damage" stage near the edges.
This was actually going to be my post. I was going to make a joke about the only way to get that into a holder would be let NGC label it Newman and get PCGS to cross a grade lower and then charge a premium
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I like the 'first brilliancy' descriptor.
TDN
Easy on the eyes. What a pretty lady
I wouldn’t say your photo skills are limited. Those are some great photography skills and the detail of close up pics is pretty amazing.
Another example of UNC coins toning more naturally due to having variances in surface elevations and textures vs well circulated coins that are almost rubbed smooth (and clearly more processed initially) which left a more reactive silver that toned more consistently.
The single layer affect almost always looks fake. If it had been in a holder people would be flipping out over it.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
After the acetone do you wipe it or let the acetone evaporate and is this acceptable?
Your talking apples and oranges comparing the heritage coin and the op's coin, both before and after.
No I did not wipe the coin. I only swirled the acetone several times.
I have found a nice long soak works fine by itself. Long as in several days in a closed glass jar turning the coin every day.
I also noticed hairlines on the coin that were hidden under the coins oil/film.
This was also expected.
I like it and so will pcgs. Straight grade VF.
I guess it’s a bit better but I really didn’t like the first look at all. The new toning adds a bit of character where there was none, but the coin lacks “layers” and has a low chance of grading.
I have seen these changes in color occur on circulated coins in my own collection. I bought this Charles I six pence in the late 1980s. At that time it was a white coin that had obviously been dipped. Over time it changed to these colors. The pictures are taken at an angle so that I could show you the color.
I have seen this type of color on other circulated coins during my years as a collector. I don't find it attractive because it's not natural. I didn't do anything to cause this coin to turn; it was stored in a safety flip. It's just that this sort of thing does not happen on circulated coins unless they come in contact with some sort of chemical, like an improrperly rinsed dipping solution. Such coins might or might not get a straight grade.