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Drapery, No Drapery

BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,239 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Here are a couple of subtypes within the large general type of the Liberty Seated, No Arrows, No Motto (for the quarter, half dollar and silver dollar) coinage, the No Drapery and Draper type coins.

The No Drapery types were the original artwork by Christian Gobrecht. To my eye these coins were much attractive than the With Drapery coins which followed them. The With Drapery types were the work of Robert Ball Hughes.

Here are examples of each type shown on the quarter:

No Drapery


With Drapery


The most obvious difference is the extra fold of cloth that comes down from Ms. Liberty’s elbow. This gives the type its name, but if you look at other details you will see subtle differences. The “LIBERTY” ribbon across the shield is slightly cured on the No Drapery type while it is straight on the With Drapery design. The rock upon which Ms. Liberty sits is also slightly different.

Now to confuse you a little more, here is a No Drapery Half Dollar and a With Drapery Half Dollar.

No Drapery - This is a scarce type coin that was issued for only part of the year in 1839.


With Drapery


There are fewer differences between these two designs. The cloth that hangs from Ms. Liberty's elbow is not much different, and once more the rock has a slightly different shape.

These subtle types are something only advanced type collectors usually add to their sets. There are also "partial drapery" coins, but those are the result of die clashes and not a real design change.

We can look at more coins if you like. The differences in the designs between the half dime and dime are more dramatic.

Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

Comments

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do you know if anyone recognizes "Partial Drapery" coins?

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,239 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The "partial Drapery" 1838 dime is listed in The Red Book, but I have never seen it listed as a type coin. It shouldn't be listed as a type coin because it's only a die state, not a design change.

    I bid on one a couple times at auction, but it always went for too much money.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,239 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here are the Drapery and No Drapery hall dimes and dimes.

    Half dime, No Drapery


    Half Dime, Drapery


    Dime, No Drapery


    Dime, Drapery


    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice write up Bill. I prefer the No Drapery design also. Just looks better.

  • BarberFanaticBarberFanatic Posts: 671 ✭✭✭✭

    That is a gorgeous '60-O half you have there, @BillJones . <3

    My current coin collecting interests are: (1) British coins 1838-1970 in XF-AU-UNC, (2) silver type coins in XF-AU with that classic medium gray coloration and exceptional eye appeal.
  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, particularly on the half-dime and dime, poor Miss Liberty went from feminine to linebacker arms. ;)

    The "winner" for me has always been the no-stars type. They look so clean and un-encumbered without the stars.

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,239 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TommyType said:
    Yeah, particularly on the half-dime and dime, poor Miss Liberty went from feminine to linebacker arms. ;)

    The "winner" for me has always been the no-stars type. They look so clean and un-encumbered without the stars.

    I agree. The artwork on the half dime and dime really went down in my opinion.

    Here are the No Stars Types.



    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd prefer a "no prongs" type with visible edge. ;)

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a very educational thread. Thanks to the OP and all who posted.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 'weightlifter arms' ruined them for me... just not an artful presentation... Cheers, RickO

  • SouthcountySouthcounty Posts: 661 ✭✭✭✭

    I have an 1839 No Drapery seated half dollar that has a clash where the drapery normally resides. As a result it was slabbed by PCGS as AU53 in a with drapery holder. I purchased it from a well known coin dealer for the price of a 39 with drapery. I have always kept it in the original incorrect holder with the dealer's sticker and price still on the slab. The ND version is probably worth about 10 times what I paid for the incorrectly attributed WD version. Cherry picks are still out there, even from advanced dealers, if you know what you are looking for.

    Seated Half Collection
    Seated Dollar Collection
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like the no stars version better as well. It will be really difficult to let go of my no stars dime...but I am trying to work out a deal.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
  • gonzergonzer Posts: 3,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    The 'weightlifter arms' ruined them for me... just not an artful presentation... Cheers, RickO

    Ricko, back in the day she would've been known to have 'rubineseque' arms.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,239 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oih82w8 said:
    I like the no stars version better as well. It will be really difficult to let go of my no stars dime...but I am trying to work out a deal.

    The No Stars Dime is a very tough coin, far harder to find in the higher circulated and Mint State grades, than the half dime.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2018 5:15PM

    Pretty awesome to illustrate it with your own photos of your own coins!

    Here are the more detailed Half Dime hub changes, side by side for easier comparison.
    But I cheated by using the amazing pro photos @PCGSPhoto of high end proofs at PCGS CoinFacts. :smile:
    Click on photos once or twice to zoom in for full details!

    1837 no stars vs. 1840 no drapery - Ms. Liberty device looks the same


    1840 no drapery vs. 1843 drapery (fingers, rock, shield, arm widths, etc. are also different)


    1843 drapery flat base vs. 1858 wavy base (little finger on pole is also different)


    1858 Hughes wavy base line stars vs. 1859 Paquet hollow star centers


    1859 Paquet hollow stars vs. 1860 Hughes legend

    The 1860 Hughes base is flat, so we can compare it to the 1843 (flat) and the 1857 (wavy).
    Neither is an exact match (compare the gown folds left of pole).


    1843 flat base vs. 1860 flat base


    1858 wavy base vs. 1860 flat base

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