Value of a coin/token given no prior sales.
DNADave
Posts: 7,279 ✭✭✭✭✭
How do you place an approximate dollar value on a coin or token that you cannot find a prior sale for?
I've look in the heritage prior sales, eBay, and a general web search. Nothing at Stacks.
The only reference value I can find is the 2001 Kansinger book, which has to have changed one way or the other by now.
The token I'm looking for is this one, which I'm going to call XF, optimistically
Fuld OH165Q-1b
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Comments
You have to bid what you feel comfortable financially paying and the underbidder will basically tell you where things are on that day and time.
I do own the coin, I'm just trying to put a value to it based on prior sales. I agree with you though when I'm a buyer.
It depends on what someone will pay for it. If one person wants it, the bid could be low. If two or more people want it...their bank account is the limit.
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I would look for comparable unique tokens, similar type and condition. This is similar to using comparables for real estate, also known as comps.
Tokens are a lot of fun but as noted several are difficult to value.
Only real path to price discovery is auction the coin.
Look at the guide book rarity rating and go from there. The 25 cent "go for" makes it look rare. My experience has been the such tokens are hard to find because the issuers probably destroyed a lot of them. The graphics, other than the Stanton reverse, are not exciting. If I were interested, I'd set a price for myself, but I'm not. "Interested" bids can get stupid bids on my part, but I can't give you guidance on that. If you are really interested, bid "stupid" within reason. Otherwise bid with caution.
I’m sorry that I cannot help on the value, but that is one very cool piece. I like it very much.
I never go for tokens with just wording as I like some type of graphic.......that is an exception for me.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
I have been buying ;
1. Civil War Tokens and NOW I started on the
2. Hard Times Token's which I have no REAL IDEA what they are other than they pre-date the Civil War. The Jacksonian Period 1832- 1844. I got a BIG BOOK called the United States Token's 1700-1900. Just now looking into it but buy every day!
Great Question I don't have a clue yet!
This one ended on ebay without selling.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/F-BILLIODS-BREWERY-25-CENTS-CIVIL-WAR-TRADE-TOKEN-CINNCINNATI-OHIO-/202125375126?_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIM.MBE&ao=1&asc=49478&meid=debf1b3e6ffc4de1be24e4a053e9f161&pid=100011&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=192359104496&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=USka4C2eMSB5cJziS1nYQrvnz9Q%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Some additional info on your token.
https://tokencatalog.com/token_record_forms.php?action=DisplayTokenRecord&td_id=482224&inventory_id=527124&attribution_id=497038
Joe
Successful BST transactions with lordmarcovan, Moldnut, erwindoc
Put this into google for more info
25 cents f. billiods brewer
Joe
Successful BST transactions with lordmarcovan, Moldnut, erwindoc
I checked my research books, and learned that this is an Rarity 8 rated variety which places the estimated population at 5 to 10 pieces. Kanzinger priced it at $1,750 in F-VF, $2,200 in EF and $2,500 in Unc. This piece is not Mint State. I'd say it's probably in the EF-40 range for a grade.
I checked the NGC census and found that they have graded two pieces, an EF-45 and an MS-62.
I've been out of this market as an active buyer and seller for almost a decade. Here's my take for what it's worth. The certified Mint State graded tokens have asking prices that amaze me. I have similar pieces in AU or low end Unc. When I ask if "My ship has come in on these tokens," the response is "They have to be certified as Unc.." My gut tells me that this piece is worth a couple thousand dollars + or - a few hundred, if you really want it. My perception is that that the Mint State prices have gone up since Kanzinger was published. The circulated tokens may have gone up, but not by a lot.
That's my gut and not hard evidence, but that's how I would approach it.
I was able to find a sold price referenced from a 2008 auction. Thank you all.
Unique old token..... I would say the market for such is fairly narrow....if selling, do not start low....Cheers, RickO
i looked in my book it list oh-165q-1b as a r8 and only worth
VF-EF $25.00 - $35.00 - MS-63 $100-$150.00
Thats all I would bid! End of story Unless I am reading it wrong. Its on the Official Red Book of Civil War Tokens Pg 338
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I appreciate you looking that up. That's a huge disparity of pricing information, and I've never seen a thin planchet token with the Stanton reverse sell that low.... It makes me want to look at that book.
So how I know I got it right the book list this as " OH, Cincinnati, Fredericks Billiods- the shop of John Stanton. Frederick Billiods, Lafayette Brewery" Now that is what you have on your picture of the token, John Stanton and F Billiods Brewery
Now I follow the Red Book only to know if someone over bid on the coin. I figure they want it bad for who knows why. The only time I will over bid is if I dont care and just want it because! Does not make sense but then why over pay in the first place.
The " A Guide Book of Civil War Tokens, History, Values, Raritiues , author is Q. David Bowers a inexpensive paper back but highly useful.
TRUE R-8 Civil War tokens have not sold for those low numbers for years. Good luck at buying anything that rare at those prices. As for prices, the high grade and rare Civil War tokens that Dave Bowers owns or once owned are selling for much more than those amounts.
R7 = 11 to 20 Coins
R8 = 5 to 10 Coins
R9 = 2 to 4 Coins
Now I think BillJones has a good point I did not consider that just what the book was listing. I will look at some of my past purchases to see if I bought any R7 or R8's and what I paid if I did.
I had a R5 paid $180.00
I had a R8 paid $ 63.00
1863 Newark New Jersey Civil War Token J Wightman R8 Very Rare Die Combination
More sales but NOT mine
R8 sold for $495.00
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1864-George-McClellan-Civil-War-Political-Campaign-Token-NGC-MS64-RB/382383831588?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
R6 sold for $350.00
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1863-Indianapolis-Indiana-Roos-Schmalzried-R6-Civil-War-Token-NGC-MS63/382383820579?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
R6 sold for $127.00
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1863-Union-Eagle-Patriotic-Civil-War-Token-R6-Very-Scarce-Obverse-Die/382373514094?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
Contact David E. Shenkman through the ANA. He can probably help you with information.
@Gluggo
The R-8 McClellan token you cited was issued in different metals, and die combinations with same obverse die which makes getting something quite similar not as hard as the piece covered in the opening post. The piece in the op is a stand alone variety that was made in one metal. When I was a dealer that McClellan obverse was always available for a price. I have a gold plated 142/348 that is over rated as an R-9. The other pieces you cited are rated R-6, which is a different market.
Some tokens are extremely rare.. i’ve been looking for a token from the General Slocum steamship for over 20 years now with no luck.
That is a seriously cool token you have! Good luck with any auction you may list.
Billjones I dont doubt it I am a total amature just learning. But its all good stuff thank you. But Holy Moly so now different markets but same mentioning of R's. Ohhhh man this can be confusing.
Your piece is nice.
Are you looking for opinions of value because you would like to sell it or just to know?
If the former, the only sure way to find out is to place it in an auction where you are certain it will get due consideration.
DNADave1
Current bid:US $410.00
[ 18 bids ]
Here is one while not yours its moving good!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/34th-Ohio-Militia-Zouave-Civil-War-Soldier-Sutler-Token-R6/382397571987?_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIM.MBE&ao=2&asc=50073&meid=28f0ba8556c148de86cd5e26cba9bea3&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=382397149447&itm=382397571987&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
That "Zouave" piece is a sutlers'token, which is a mostly different market from the CWTs. All sutlers' tokens are at least scarce. Many of them are rare, and they attract a different group of collectors for the most part.
Rarity is not the sole determinant of value in the CWT market. The state, the city, the type of business of issuer, the design on the piece and other factors can be equally or even more important. The CWT price guide in the Fuld book did us a disservice when it emphasized rarity as the determining factor for value.
Finally some of the rarity ratings are too high. There are more tokens in existence than the book says there are.
Thank you for that explaination BillJ. Interesting about R-count changing but that makes sense. And the sutler's token I will have to study more about that as I see there are more up for bid all over the $300.00 mark.
Here you go.
I heard that the Fuld's had a sample size of 100,000 tokens when they made their rarity estimates starting in the early 1960s. That is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 in 30 of all the tokens that exist today. Since then revisions have been made, but it is an on-going process.
Plus, the Fulds’ estimates may have been skewed depending upon the collections they were able to review. Aside from Q. David Bowers virtually no CWT collectors set out to acquire one of the everything. Most of them concentrate on one state, or they get interested in certain professions. For example I had a customer who was a pharmacist. He wanted every token that was related to drug stores. Another guy like the Monitor. He wanted every Monitor token and snapped up a lot of duplicates. One customer was a Mason, and he wanted every token that the Masonic Symbol on it.
Some collectors want one token from each town where there was a merchant who issued Civil War tokens. That comes to over 450 tokens. Communities where there was only one merchant are called single merchant towns (acronym SMT). Those pieces often bring a premium even if the rarity is R-3 or 4.
When the Fulds did their survey, they rated this New York City Sanitary Fair token as an R-4. That met that it was a somewhat scarce item, but that a collector could find one with some diligence. It turned out that the piece was really an R-7, which made it a really tough piece to find, especially since there are a lot of collectors who are interested in New York City pieces.
One the other hand the Fulds' listed NY 630CH-3a, a Thomas White Butcher token with a pig on the obverse as an R-7. It was in fact very easy to find and should have only been an R-2 or even an R-1.
I like it. Ultimately you have to bid your feelings on the piece, given no record.
Pete
For what it's worth:
John Stanton (1829-1921) was a Stamp Brand Cutter/Blacksmith who resided in Cincinnati, Ohio.
He was contracted by Frederick (Fred) Billiods (1794-1862) to make the coin you are asking about. Mr. Billiods was a Brewer in Cincinnati, Ohio.
So your coin is quite old, being that Mr. Billiods passed away in 1862.
They are buried at Spring Grove Cemetery in Cincinnati.
The above info was gleaned from Ancestry.com records.
Hope this helps.
Pete
I have no idea what it may be worth. According to my inflation calculator twenty-five cents in 1863 would be worth $4.70 today. So..... a pint of a good craft beer during happy-hour at a high class joint or 4.7 pints of PBR at my neighborhood pizza joint.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Billijones I was going to buy one with the pig on it not sure if that’s the one your referring to but I will have to go back and look now. Thank you for sharing. I also see the difference now on the sutlers token I will have to see if my books cover's those for study on my part.
Many sutler tokens are listed in "U.S. Civil War Store Cards" second edition by George and Melvin Fuld. That is the classic work on the subject. They are called, "Non-Local" in the back of the book. There are new revised works on the Civil War Store Cards. The most available one is the Whitman "Redbook" on the subject by Q. David Bowers.
Thank you I have that book so I can learn up.
You might want to join the Civil War Token Society. They have a website, a quarterly magazine and they can give you deals on research books.